• Registered: 2009-07-26
  • Posts: 47

Topic: ADI-2 DAC FS External Clock Workaround Via AudioMovers Inject ?

Hi

Antelope Zen Go Synergy Connected to ADI-2 DAC FS via Spdif Coax, as normal operation the ADI-2 DAC FS is clock slave to the ZEN GO when I wiss to record audio true the AD convertors of the ZEN GO interface, now take lock at this:

Live 12 ( Mac OS ) CoreAudio is set to ADI-2 DAC FS and https://audiomovers.com/inject/ Plugin loaded on to audio channel and External Input in the Inject plugin is set to ZEN GO, ZEN GO switch it's clock source to USB from INTERNAL and get clock lock to USB!

Is that mean that the ADI-2 DAC FS is now responsible for Master Clocking when I record audio from the Inject plugin within Live 12 ?

Thanks, Looking forward for advice.....

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 PRO FS R BE / Ableton Live 12

2 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-03-30 23:06:16)

  • KaiS
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2020-02-05
  • Posts: 3,525

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS External Clock Workaround Via AudioMovers Inject ?

With USB plugged ADI-2 DAC is always referenced to USB’s set sample rate, but uses it’s internal clock.

Pro manual, DAC mode:
…When switching to USB the unit operates in clock mode master (USB asynchronous)...


Manual page 27:

Clock Source
Shows the current clock source ….
…With USB the internal clock is used…


I have to admit that I can’t answer how Antelope Zen Go handles this, but there might be a clock master conflict.

In such cases of doubt I run a 20 kHz sine wave through a system.
(Don’t bring it up too much or you will fry your tweeters, better use headphones).
The sine wave itself is inaudible, but if something goes wrong with the clock, audible clicks appear from sample clock jumps.

KaiS's Website

  • Registered: 2009-07-26
  • Posts: 47

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS External Clock Workaround Via AudioMovers Inject ?

I have to admit that I can’t answer how Antelope Zen Go handles this, but there might be a clock master conflict.

I think this Inject Plugin works same as aggregate device but I can be completely wrong!!
It might be receiving clock from the host which in that case Live 12, and the ADI-2 DAC FS is the master in the CoreAudio again I might be completely wrong!! I'm assuming that because in the Inject plugin there is only buffer size to adjust no sample rate!!

This raise a new question,in case of aggregate device ADI-2 DAC FS selected as clock source other devices synced to the ADI-2 DAC FS by hard sync ? or by soft sync ? Is it a reliable way to sync clock devices ?

By searching google for a answer to that most are saying that it works great and they working with aggregate device for years without any issue.
Also I searched if aggregate device effect sound quality and the answer was NO

In the case of https://audiomovers.com/omnibus/ I asked the support team how is the responsible for clocking and got this answer:

Each device has its own clock from which it is clocked. In the case of a virtual device, clocking occurs from the CPU

Physical devices have their own clocks but omnibus does a lot of work to sync devices together
Omnibus collects all devices together and tries to synchronise with each other, starting from the CPU.

In the case of Omnibus the CoreAudio in Live 12 need to be selected as Omnibus virtual device.....In the case of Inject there no need to switch audio device in Coreaudio!!

In such cases of doubt I run a 20 kHz sine wave through a system

I have tried this 20 kHz sine wave from external source to the AD of the ZEN GO and run it true the Inject plugin and monitored the result true ADI-2 DAC FS as USB Clock ( INT ) with headphones for a couple of minutes and no audible clicks !!

To be honest I'm trying to find the best way to have a pair of AD inputs to the ADI-2 DAC FS and keep the clock as USB ( INT ) for best results, if I'm just being over thinking about this and can live in peace with Spdif Coax just in time of recording and switching back to USB ( INT ) clock when done recording Please sure you honest thoughts or your way of working with ADI-2 DAC FS in studio environment.....


Thanks, Looking forward for advice.....

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 PRO FS R BE / Ableton Live 12

4 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-03-31 01:07:45)

  • KaiS
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2020-02-05
  • Posts: 3,525

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS External Clock Workaround Via AudioMovers Inject ?

The 20 kHz sine wave test is a reliable check that everything is OK.

But, the sentence:

Physical devices have their own clocks but omnibus does a lot of work to sync devices together
Omnibus collects all devices together and tries to synchronise with each other, starting from the CPU.

Leaves the question how individual running clocks could be reliably synchronized.

Smells like large buffers that can compensate for the drift over a longer period.
Maybe check with the sine wave for a longer time span, that reflects your working block length.

In extremo you could record the 20 kHz for some hours.
Then render the track through a steep 1 kHz low pass filter that almost completely removes the 20 kHz.
Possible clicks have a broad spectrum that still shows up in the waveform display for a visual inspection.

KaiS's Website

  • Registered: 2009-07-26
  • Posts: 47

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS External Clock Workaround Via AudioMovers Inject ?

Hi

Most of my worries is if ADI-2 DAC FS is slave clock to my Fireface 400 or 800 I loose quality, I did a Null test as follow:

Recorded twice one shot of electronic BassDrum form Logic Pro x to Ableton Live 12

One true the Fireface 800 driver in Logic Pro x to Live 12 when ADI-2 DAC FS driver is selected in Live 12, and digital audio true Spdif to ADI-2 DAC FS form the Fireface 800

ADI-2 DAC FS Spdif cable in ( ADI-2 DAC FS clock is USB rec coax aka slave ) and recorded the outcome to Live 12 with ADI-2 DAC FS as audio driver

Second time recorded from Logic Pro x to Live 12 when in Logic Pro x ADI-2 DAC FS driver is selected the same electronic
BassDrum to Live 12 when ADI-2 DAC FS driver is selected but ADI-2 DAC FS clock USB ( int aka master ) and loopback is active

I set both BassDrum recordings in Live 12 to simpler a basic sampler and set both of the samples at the same starting point and reversed phase one of the samples.

The outcome is -110db of silence. I cranked my volume controller and the ADI-2 DAC FS to the max, 0 in my volume controller and +6dBr in my ADI-2 DAC FS and not even a Hiss comes out of my Studio Monitors..

So I believe that this is a valid way to determine that there is no loos when the ADI-2 DAC FS is clocked from external source, in this case Fireface 800 as clock master.

Any thought ?

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 PRO FS R BE / Ableton Live 12
  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,183

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS External Clock Workaround Via AudioMovers Inject ?

According to RME the design of ADI-2 DAC / Pro and ADI-2/4 Pro SE is special.
They use even as a clock slave their internal FS clock for conversion.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14