1 (edited by sleepy.sock4639 2024-04-07 18:52:13)

Topic: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

I have a pair of Genelec 8361s in my living room as speakers for hifi and the TV. They are fantastic and work well with the great ADI-2 Pro FS R. Works great for music (Raspberry Pi -- USB -> ADI-2 Pro -- AES --> Genelec 8361).

However, for the TV source, I'm getting constant errors that are driving me nuts. Signal path is:

LG OLED55C8PLA television -- SPDIF optical -> ADI-2 Pro -- AES -> Genelec 8361

Red LEDs flash on the Genelecs randomly every minute or so and audio drops out indicating they are seeing errors in their AES input.

No errors are shown on the ADI-2 Pro. 'Sync' is displayed continuously; it is in DAC mode, no SRC, clock taken from SPDIF, signal from TV is 24/48kHz.

It has been documented that LG TVs have poor quality digital optical outputs [https://jdslabs.com/support/troubleshoo … question-5]. In an effort to get around this, I used an external HDMI ARC extractor to obtain a fresh optical SPDIF signal from the HDMI ARC output of the TV. Unfortunately, this made no improvement -- just as many errors were present. Turning on SRC made no difference either.

I realise that there is no way to magically make the LG into a better source.

Is there any way to get the ADI-2 unit to somehow rebuild the SPDIF signal so that what it then sends over AES output does not trigger errors?

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

What happens with analogue outs, just to confirm it’s a digital problem? I’ve been using  ADI2-Pro with my Genelecs that way for many years and have no complaints!

_____________________
Eric Seaberg • San Diego, CA • USA
A.E.S. • S.M.P.T.E. • S.P.A.R.S. • I.E.E.E.

3 (edited by sleepy.sock4639 2024-04-07 19:24:44)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Thanks, I can't easily check the main analog outs as all the wiring here is for digital, but listening simultaneously via headphone out on the ADI-2 it all sounds fine. I would expect the main analog outs to be the same (no audible issues).

The issue seems to only be on the digital outs and the Genelecs are being very picky about irregularities in the signal by dropping and flashing their lights.

4 (edited by ericseaberg 2024-04-07 19:29:35)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Switch the cables! 110-ohm AES cabling is totally usable as analogue.

————-

Sorry, after replying I realized you’re only using a single AES to one 8361 and changing the stream between the two… one A and the other B.

_____________________
Eric Seaberg • San Diego, CA • USA
A.E.S. • S.M.P.T.E. • S.P.A.R.S. • I.E.E.E.

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

One other thing, how are you controlling volume to the 8361s?

_____________________
Eric Seaberg • San Diego, CA • USA
A.E.S. • S.M.P.T.E. • S.P.A.R.S. • I.E.E.E.

6 (edited by sleepy.sock4639 2024-04-07 19:41:56)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Yes there is only one cable... The volume is being controlled digitally by the ADI-2 itself.

This means the ADI-2 must be rebuilding the digital signal for output with lower volume (plus doing tone/loudness DSP).

Note that everything is perfect if I change the ADI-2's source to USB (driven by Raspberry PI music streamer). The same AES to the Genelecs generates no errors and it sounds excellent. The issue only occurs with using the LG's SPDIF input.

7 (edited by MstrC-117 2024-04-07 20:22:38)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Connect ADI´s analog feed (Main Out 1/2 or Phones 3/4) also to Genelec, in parallel with digital.

Select analog input from GLM as source, or optionally mute ADI´s digital out (then Genelec switches to its analog input automatically), when listening TV.


Depending, are you having GLM running during use or not, defines which ADI´s analog out suits better your purposes. Using Phones 3/4 as analog output eases mute toggling from ADI´s side between its active digital and analog out, in case you are not running GLM in backround, i.e. doing that analog/digital switching from Genelecs side.

Genelec doesn´t switch automatically to its analog input if it senses digital input being active. Hence either digital mute from ADI´s side or you switching input manually from GLM side is required this to work.

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Thanks -- you are right that running it with analog would get around the problem and this could be done in parallel. But my intention was to avoid running 2 sets of cables and to have to remember to swap analog/digital pathways when changing sources.

Is there any way to fix the AES signal so that it's usable for the Genelecs?

9 (edited by MstrC-117 2024-04-07 22:15:43)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

One (1) more line cable run to speakers and pressing ADI´s volume knob to toggle mute / change GLM group is too much of an addition to all this audio nerd mega-setting you already have?
Really? Lol...

All you would lost in this approach, would be your audio nerd Pure Digital Pride™ when watching TV. Solution: don´t tell anyone in ASR...


Well, you could run the "usual suspects" i.e. test with another optical cable, if it would be the culprit to bad optical transfer... quite a little chance though. And TV´s digital out -related audio settings (if any) have been tested throughout?

You also already tried that SPDIF clock decoupling with setting ADI´s SRC to on, and it didn´t help either?

Only option left, which comes to mind then, would be to change TV to more reliable model.
I remember one similar case, in which LG OLED TV´s optical output caused problems to digital Genelecs, the fixing solution was change TV to Panasonic OLED TV.

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

I‘ve read through the thread, what‘s left to try:

• Check ADI-2’s power plug at it’s back is all-in: it’s turn-lockable and NO SILVER PART should be visible.

• Unplug USB while listening to the TV.
Although in DAC MODE this shouldn’t be the case, you might have a conflicting clock.

• Try an ADI-2 reset:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 38#p202938

• Replace all cables one by one to exclude a possibly faulty one.


If nothing helps, as a workaround, connect the TV through the analog inputs to ADI-2.

11

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

I think this is going into the wrong direction. The first thing to check is the connection ADI AES Out to Genelec In. Different cable, breakout mounted correctly...

SRC is the next best suggestion. It will allow to run the ADI on internal clock, so there is no way for the Genelecs to show AES signal error caused by whatsoever ADI input signal. Unless the path AES Out to In is bad.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

12 (edited by sleepy.sock4639 2024-04-08 13:21:44)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Thank you for the helpful suggestions. ADI's power plug is fully in, as is the breakout cable. USB unplugged makes no difference. Unit is always in DAC mode. I turned on SRC (and SRC on SPDIF) but the errors still occur with same frequency (SOV screen shows 'lock' on SPDIFo, optical input is shown as a constant 24/48).

The puzzling thing is that no errors occur if I switch to USB input, even for same material, same sample rate etc. AES output only has errors when it is driven by optical in.

Later today I will try swapping cables. I have another ADI-2 unit so I will try that and its breakout cable. Will also try a UCX II as optical source.

13 (edited by ericseaberg 2024-04-08 15:57:18)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

MC wrote:

I think this is going into the wrong direction. The first thing to check is the connection ADI AES Out to Genelec In. Different cable, breakout mounted correctly...

SRC is the next best suggestion. It will allow to run the ADI on internal clock, so there is no way for the Genelecs to show AES signal error caused by whatsoever ADI input signal. Unless the path AES Out to In is bad.

Mathias, how is the digital output volume handled by the ADI-2 Pro?  On our $500k SSL recording console, which is all digital, they opted to have D/A just before the analogue volume control feeding the studio monitors, mainly to keep the full 32-bit signal to the final output.  Their D/A conversion is so clean, it's not a step-down at all.  I feel the same taking analogue out of my ADI-2 Pro feeding my Genelecs at home... great D/A conversion and no compromises!

Just wondering?

_____________________
Eric Seaberg • San Diego, CA • USA
A.E.S. • S.M.P.T.E. • S.P.A.R.S. • I.E.E.E.

14 (edited by sleepy.sock4639 2024-04-08 16:14:56)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

@ericseaberg I have a fixed -20dB pad in GLM (applied post crossover/DSP in the Genelecs) and then I adjust remaining volume with the ADI-2. For normal listening, I'd only need 5-20dB of attenuation on the ADI-2, so the signal kept is pretty close to full resolution throughout Genelec DSP until D/A conversion. Works great (except for this weird AES error).

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

FYI lock is not sync! It should display sync all the time. If I read your post wrong, sorry

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

If SRC is off and the optical source selected, SOV screen shows SPDIFo as 'sync'. If SRC is switched on over SPDIF, then SOV shows SPDIFo as 'lock'. This is I think normal behaviour?

The manual says: 'Note that with SRC active the respective input will always show lock, not sync, because the phase relation between internal and external clock has no meaning anymore.'

17

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Are you sure the red LED is AES transmission error? Not some protection (DC) or too high level peaks (might be in inaudible frequencies when coming from a TV...) kicking in?

You don't have another SPDIF source (CD player)?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Sorry for delay in responding. I was travelling for a few days and had no access to the monitors. Thank you Matthias for the suggestion about peaks -- I'm very keen to debug what is going on here.

Unfortunately, attenuation on the ADI-2 makes no difference to the flashes so I don't think could be their limiters. I can cut 100bB with the ADI-2 digital control and the Genelecs still show red flashes at the same rate (no sound from them is heard at this level). Even if ADI-2 volume is set at max limit (-infinity), I am still getting red flashes at the same rate. (SRC is alway switched on for SPDIF by the way, although SOV shows Clock Source as SPDIF -- I guess this is ok?).

Do you have any other ideas? Tomorrow I will start unplugging things in my studio and bringing it to the living room. The only other SPDIF source I have a UCX II, which I will bring in from the studio tomorrow. If you have any suggestions on tests I should run please let me know.

19 (edited by KaiS 2024-04-12 23:33:53)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

sleepy.sock4639 wrote:

…It has been documented that LG TVs have poor quality digital optical outputs [https://jdslabs.com/support/troubleshoo … question-5]…

Reading through the linked document it seems that there‘s something fundamentally wrong with the TV‘s optical output that renders it useless.

If I get the document right, beyond the dropout problem the audio quality of LG’s optical out additionally is largely compromised by harmonic distortions and noise bursts.

So, in every regard, using the TV sets analog outs into ADI-2 Pro would not only solve the dropouts, but improved audio quality too!

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

I completely agree but still puzzled why the errors remain even if I use the HDMI ARC output and generate a fresh optical signal using a breakout unit. That completely bypasses the TV's dodgy optical transducers.

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Is the error LED flashing on both speakers ?
Is the speaker very hot on the backside ?
Sure the speaker is standing free not covered with a deko cloth ?
Sorting out overheating.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

22

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

sleepy.sock4639 wrote:

Unfortunately, attenuation on the ADI-2 makes no difference to the flashes so I don't think could be their limiters. I can cut 100bB with the ADI-2 digital control and the Genelecs still show red flashes at the same rate (no sound from them is heard at this level). Even if ADI-2 volume is set at max limit (-infinity), I am still getting red flashes at the same rate. (SRC is alway switched on for SPDIF by the way, although SOV shows Clock Source as SPDIF -- I guess this is ok?)
.

No. I fear you overlooked that part in my earlier comment on SRC - it allows to let the unit run on internal clock, and it seems you did not do that - setting the clock to Internal and select the desired sample rate. With that setting the optical input signal can not influence the AES output signal anymore. If the issue remains in that setup the AES output cabling is most probably wrong.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

23 (edited by sleepy.sock4639 2024-04-13 11:10:25)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Thank you, Matthias. I was puzzled about this (had read over the manual on SRC several times). I had wrongly assumed that use of the internal clock was somehow implied if the SRC option was selected. Thank you for spotting my error.

However, the difficulty I have is that on the Clock setting page I cannot change the clock to INT or change sample rates -- these menu options are greyed out. The unit is set in DAC mode. I can select these options if I change the unit to AD/DA mode, but then I lose the ability to easily switch between USB and SPDIF sources. Do you have any advice on how to best handle this?

BTW, does setting SRC do anything if the clock is not also set to INT?

24 (edited by KaiS 2024-04-13 12:44:43)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

sleepy.sock4639 wrote:

I completely agree but still puzzled why the errors remain even if I use the HDMI ARC output and generate a fresh optical signal using a breakout unit. That completely bypasses the TV's dodgy optical transducers.

Because LG seems to really have screwed the complete (digital?) audio part.

The symptoms point to loss off, or non-existing TV-internal audio clock sync.

Maybe they reference to the wrong TV color system’s frame rate, PAL’s non-drop-frame vs. NTSC’s drop-frame.

Whatever, broken is broken!

sleepy.sock4639 wrote:

The unit is set in DAC mode. I can select these options if I change the unit to AD/DA mode, but then I lose the ability to easily switch between USB and SPDIF sources. Do you have any advice on how to best handle this?

Use “Setups” to switch the configurations.

A single button can toggle two or more setups, as I explain here:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 94#p193294

sleepy.sock4639 wrote:

BTW, does setting SRC do anything if the clock is not also set to INT?

If ADI-2‘s clock still has to follow a (assumed) completely trashy one from the LG TV, SRC might not gain any advantage.

Plus - SRC can’t fix a corrupt digital signal.
Still worth a try.

25 (edited by sleepy.sock4639 2024-04-13 15:26:19)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Great, thank you KaiS and Matthias!

I can confirm that now -- with the ADI-2 in AD/DA mode, clock set INT, SRC on -- the errors completely disappear. As Matthias indicated, the ADI-2 takes what is an absolute dog's dinner of digital audio produced by the LG TV and produces error-free signal over its AES output. Sounds great and no more drop outs.

Thank you everyone for helping to debug this for me (it was user error, as usual). I'll try the "setup" trick to make this easier to switch sources -- thank you KaiS.

Now I just have to work out how to stop my USB source defaulting to a sample rate of 768 kHz when it is not playing. This gets used as the SRC sample rate for SPDIF input, and it's too high for the Genelecs to read (they accept max 192kHz).

26 (edited by KaiS 2024-04-14 03:58:20)

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

sleepy.sock4639 wrote:

Now I just have to work out how to stop my USB source defaulting to a sample rate of 768 kHz when it is not playing. This gets used as the SRC sample rate for SPDIF input, and it's too high for the Genelecs to read (they accept max 192kHz).

192 kHz is the general upper limit for AES and SPDIF Optical and Coax interface.

Only through USB higher sample rates are possible, albeit there is no audible advantage beyond 96 kHz IMO, confirmed by other recording engineer colleagues of mine.

For ADI-2/4 Pro SE RIAA / Vinyl listening, not recording, I do use 192 kHz for absolute transparency, because the higher SR doesn’t cost extra smile

27

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Setting the unit into Multichannel mode limits the highest sample rate to 192 kHz.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Stop ADI-2 Pro FS R transmitting errors to Genelec 8361s

Thank you so much Matthias!! That is an amazing trick that completely solves the problem. Thank you very much for showing me this trick - the ADI-2 is a work of art!