1 Topic by Sagi.s (edited by Sagi.s 2024-04-08 15:33:25)

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Topic: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi

I trying to find the answer about bit depth, in the documentation of Ableton Live 12 it is recommended to record in 32bit format
do to internal processing done in 32bit for the audio engine and for Freeze or Recording from one track to anther, I checked the actual files that produce by freezing and yes they are 32bit.

Now if the ADI-2 DAC FS is a...

"2 Channel Digital / Analog Converter
SPDIF (AES/ADAT) Interface
32 Bit / 768 kHz Digital Audio"
------

And can works within 32bit depth am I losing qulity when connecting my Fireface 400 via adat with the limitation of 24bit ?

I did a Null test one time recorded via the ADAT in 24bit
And one time via the loopback of the ADI-2 DAC FS !! assuming 32bit !!
And apllied a phase revers for one of the recording and the outcome is UFL aka complete cancellation, I also did this with the original file against the recorded file and got UFL aka complete cancellation.

So Im looking for info about the bit depth of the ADI-2 DAC FS.

Thanks Looking for advice.

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12

2 Reply by Sagi.s (edited by Sagi.s 2024-04-08 23:25:01)

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi

I think I'm up to something.....

And one time via the loopback of the ADI-2 DAC FS !! assuming 32bit !!

I downloaded the 32bit test file from the manual of the ADI-2 DAC FS

Played it with HQPlayer 5 Desktop and passed 32bit test with success, now I recorded this 32bit file with the HQPlayer 5 Desktop true Loopback as 32bit file in both Live 12 and Logic Pro x and played the recording again with HQPlayer 5 Desktop assuming it will pass the 32bit test do to this is the only player that can pass the 32bit test and got only 24bit pass for the test !! from a 32bit file !!

Is it means that the Loopback can only process 24bit or I'm doing a big mess with recording formats 32bit float 32bit integer etc...????

Is it means that the Loopback can only process 24bit or I'm doing a big mess with recording formats 32bit float 32bit integer etc...????

I just noticed that there is a deferent file scheme between the one from RME and the one I recorded, please look at the photos I have marked it...

https://i.postimg.cc/v8W7g32S/temp-Image6-Yx-Ubo.avif
This one is the original file from RME and there is no " f " " 44.1k / 32 "
https://i.postimg.cc/7Zrp1sqG/temp-Image2-CUdfp.avif
This one is the recorded one and there is a " f  " " 44.1k / 32f "

Probable 32bit Floating Point ??

Thanks Looking For Advice.

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12
  • waedi
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

A bit test has nothing to do with bit-depth, right ?

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi

I don't know, this is why I do all of those tests....

I just found that Cubase can record 32bit Integer, I have v 10.5 going to give it a try and post results....

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Yes, when the audio interface delivers 32 bit material

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi

Small update it seams that cubase as a second driver mode for the ADI-2 DAC FS by the name (High Precision)

And it pass success the 32bit test file....the manual can be updated that not only HQPlayer can pass the 32bit file smile



https://i.postimg.cc/ZRq10FQD/temp-Image4-Fj-Lc-S.avif

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12

7 Reply by Sagi.s (edited by Sagi.s 2024-04-09 00:47:04)

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

As for recording in cubase with Loopback it records only chunks of the test file, I'm not sure still testing....

Exporting the file and reloading it still pass 32bit test, now to make sure I need to find a way to record it, I will try again from HQPlayer to Cubase....

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Ok

I have a conclusion, when Cubase is in (High Precision) mode the 32bit file pass and when in normal mode it pass as 24bit

So I think to be able to work in 32bit domain Cubase is the answer, in Live 12 or Logic Pro x there is no way to achieve true 32bit
processing, I can be completely wrong so if any one can give better knowledge I will be very appreciate smile

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12

9 Reply by MC

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Sagi.s wrote:

the documentation of Ableton Live 12 it is recommended to record in 32bit format do to internal processing done in 32bit for the audio engine and for Freeze or Recording from one track to anther, I checked the actual files that produce by freezing and yes they are 32bit.

Exactly. And there is no mention of the interface or the source material because this is about internal processing within the DAW!

Sagi.s wrote:

Now if the ADI-2 DAC FS is a...

Doesn't matter. You will have no source material that exceeds 24 bit (if it reaches that at all). There is a reason

Sagi.s wrote:

SPDIF (AES/ADAT)

is 24 bit. It is more than enough because this is about transport, not processing.

No ADI-2 devices support 32 bit transparency from in to out (nor do others). That should be obvious as the only way to do that would be USB (path in to out. AES, ADAT, SPDIF and Analog - again obviously - can not do that) - which no one needs. Loopback within the device is also limited to 24 bit.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi MC

All is understood.

But if Cubase can work with 32bit Integer and the ADI-2 DAC FS is capable why not ?

If all is needed is a " In The Box " work environment, and to achieve the maximum out of the ADI-2 DAC FS.

Also it not perfect I must say Because when Cubase is set to High Precision few things become useless:

1 The ADI-2 DAC FS go into UNMIXABLE mode and only Cubase can be played no Apple Music no YouTube etc..
2 Loopback is not functioning
3 Recording via USB ( Rec opt ) is heavy distorted
4 and 5 I confess that may be there is no audible deferent and living Ableton Live for Cubase will be weird thing after so many years.

But the ADI-2 DAC FS intrigues me and I really want his full potential.

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12

11 Reply by MC

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Sagi.s wrote:

But if Cubase can work with 32bit Integer and the ADI-2 DAC FS is capable why not ?
If all is needed is a " In The Box " work environment, and to achieve the maximum out of the ADI-2 DAC FS.

So you still ask for something that either doesn't make sense or is physically impossible.

Sagi.s wrote:

Also it not perfect I must say Because when Cubase is set to High Precision few things become useless:

Did you realize that the ADI-2 DAC does not come with drivers? So whatever happens in that mode is not caused by us. You might try different buffer sizes in Cubase, though.

That said read the manual of the DAC about the bit test. 24 bit with 32 bit files is a limitation of Core Audio, not of Cubase. Cubase internally works with much higher resolution.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

12 Reply by Sagi.s (edited by Sagi.s 2024-04-09 16:10:40)

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi

Yes I'm aware that the ADI-2 DAC FS has no driver.

So whatever happens in that mode is not caused by us

Im sure of that because farther test revel that it carpet the Coreaudio, today Cubase wont play sound in this High Precision mode and as I reported the ADI-2 DAC FS digital input also get corrupted.

So Cubase is not a magic way of working in 32bit Integer and I will continue using Ableton Live.

I just assumed that if the 32bit test file pass in Cubase it means that it on fully 32bit work environment.

Plus I'm not a expert, I just flowed a basic guide line....

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12
  • waedi
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

What was the desire of this thread ? Ableton is better than Cubase ?
Or did you try to record a piece of music 24bit into Cubase via the ADI-2 and have it as 32bit music as result ? Was that the goal ?

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

14 Reply by Sagi.s (edited by Sagi.s 2024-04-09 16:19:51)

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi


The goal is to achieve 32bit work environment, ADI-2 DAC FS is a

32 Bit / 768 kHz
Hi-Res Audio

So I became curious, one can understand.....

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

I never heard before of a "32 bit work environment", I'm speechless.

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi

May be Im not saying that correctly "  32bit work environment "

I will try to explain, the ADI-2 DAC FS is a 32bit interface, how do I work with it in 32bit ?

To find the answer by myself I turned to the test files from the manual, and find out that if Cubase is in High Precision mode the 32bit test file is pass
So I assume that now Im in 32bit mode, or more accurate in 32bit Integer, and this is my only indication by the test 32bit file, ADAT and Spidif are limited to 24bit this is known.
But what about USB ?

If there is anther way to determine that 32bit is working directly from the DAW please let me know, for 24bit in the ADI-2 Remote there is indication for ADAT and Spidif but not for the USB

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

I can only tell how I do.
I play the file and when I can hear it from the loudspeakers then it's fine.

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

18 Reply by Sagi.s (edited by Sagi.s 2024-04-10 15:24:07)

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi


Let me ask a simple question, is the ADI-2 DAC FS support 32bit Integer ?


Asking because Cubase in High Precision mode is simple 32 bit integer in non-mixable format, and as the manual of the ADI-2 DAC FS says

Some players in Mac OS X offer a Direct Mode, using 32 bit integer in non-mixable format

If it is I'm not going to make any switch of DAW Ableton Live for me is the best, but if Cubase in Integer mode can talk directly to the ADI-2 DAC FS and have a sync of 32bit how is it in other DAW when it is only 32bit float, how is the sync done ?

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Ok 24 bit is fixed point and 32 bit is floating point. Both have only 24 bit data. The floating point adds a mantisa. Read about this and then come back.
32 bit float can not work in an audio interface, cause it can go beyond 0dbfs.

Vincent, Amsterdam
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20 Reply by Sagi.s (edited by Sagi.s 2024-04-10 16:16:35)

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi

Sorry if I'm rude but I just want to make sure I'm working in 32bit resolution within my DAW


Reading only make me more confused and can find a clear answer if I'm working in 32 bit, if there was only a indicator for bit depth in the ADI-2 Remote like there is for ADAT and Spdif.

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12

21 Reply by vinark (edited by vinark 2024-04-10 16:29:03)

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Cubase is always working in 32 or 64 bit as is any other daw. But no audio interface can output or input anything beyond 24 bit. If you set your daw to record 32 bit it will work that way.
You don't have to worry about it.
The theocratic dynamic range of 24 bit is 148db. That is more then your ears and everything else in reality. Internal processing in the daw has been at 32 bit for years and recently also 64 bit. But that is for processing precision not output audio quality.
Hope this helps!
Just a FYI 120 to 132db signal to noise(dynamic range) equals 20 to 22 bits. So you can never record or play back anything with better then 22 bits.

Vincent, Amsterdam
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi vinark

Yes that's helps a lot, now one more question and please let it be simple answer smile ADI-2 DAC FS has Max Resolution of
32 bit where it is come in to play ?

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

See my addition to my last post.
Yes adi can record and play 32 bit files but inside it will never exceed 22 bit  an it does not need too either. Beyond 18 bits there are no audible gains to be had.
And remember your daw always processes at leat 32 bits. Even when using 16 bit files. There really is no problem. The only advantage of recording 32 bit files over 16 or 24 is that the daw does not have to convert them, which saves a little little bit of cpu. Not audio quality

Vincent, Amsterdam
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi

I understand both posts but can't relate any thing to the max resolution of the ADI-2 DAC FS, is it internal headroom of the DAC is it D/A conversion done in 32bit ?

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

You are confusing driver and transport resolution with true resolution iow noise and distortion level.
The driver supports 32 bit in USB afaik, adat and spdif 24bit. But the audio that comes out of it is 100% identical, since true resolution is 22 bit. But the chance you are either feeding the input or have headphones or speakers with that resolution are nil.
In camera terms you could say you are worrying about your sensor being 90 or 100 megapixels while the lens only resolves 10.
And you audio device has no influence on the resolution of your daw. It is always 32 bit or more

Vincent, Amsterdam
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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

vinark wrote:

32 bit float can not work in an audio interface, cause it can go beyond 0dbfs.

https://www.sounddevices.com/32-bit-flo … explained/

27 Reply by Sagi.s (edited by Sagi.s 2024-04-17 23:08:33)

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi

Can I ask if there will be any change in playback quality between:

Live 12 - Coreaudio ADI-2 DAC FS - Source USB - XLR to amp

Live 12 - Coreaudio Fireface 800 - FW - Adat to ADI-2 DAC FS - Source Optical - XLR to amp

Also if any one can direct me how can I do a A/B test in real time ?

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12

28 Reply by waedi (edited by waedi 2024-04-17 22:12:17)

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

The sound quality will be almost the same, the ADI-2 is a newer device it may be better.
For A/B test a passive monitor controller with mute button can be a solution.

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 97#p212797

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

29 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-04-17 22:31:57)

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

To detect the expected very tiny differences a precise level matching is mandatory, within 1/100 dB.

You need a Voltmeter and measure the amp’s speaker outputs for this.
An acoustic measurement with a Sound Level Meter isn’t precise enough.

Here’s a how to:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 74#p187774

KaiS's Website

30 Reply by Sagi.s (edited by Sagi.s 2024-04-18 04:40:39)

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

Hi

I found a way to A/B, A: is ADI-2 DAC FS USB direct, B: is Loop with Fireface 800
It look like this

https://i.postimg.cc/gJ3HQMHx/temp-Imageiyh-WL8.avif

I created Aggregate Device and set this path:
1/2 out is the ADI-2 DAC FS over USB
3/4 out is the Fireface 800 over Firewire

External. in 1/2 listen to the incoming audio from the ADI-2 DAC FS optical in witch connected to the Fireface 800

This way I can use the Live 12 solo toggle and A/B the sound directly on the ADI-2 DAC FS via USB source and vice versa to solo and listen to the incoming audio from the Fireface 800 over optical source.

And just to add, in the ADI-2 Remote the source is always on USB ( Rec opt.)

To my ears the direct sound from the ADI-2 DAC FS is more clear...

Mac Studio M2 Ultra  / 14.4.1 / FF400 FF800 ADI-2 DAC FS / Ableton Live 12

31 Reply by hasan.ay386 (edited by hasan.ay386 2024-04-26 20:51:54)

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Re: ADI-2 DAC FS 32bit vs 24bit ADAT Limitation ??

The 22 bit mentioned is on the analog side and has not much to do with the digital bit depth of 24 or 32 bit. It is true that the difference is no longer audible and probably also no longer measurable because the analog noise masks it. But the statement that it is 100% identical is simply wrong.

If you want to do it technically correct, then select either the normal driver for 24 Bit or the high precision mode in Cubase, then your DAC will also work with 32 bit integer. Let's ignore the fact that it can only do 22 bits in analog, we want to do it right in digital.

In Cubase there is also 32 bit floating point or 64 bit fp, which is the internal processing and has nothing to do with the DAC. Set this to 64 bit fp, with some plugins you can hear a difference.

Then there is the recording bit depth in cubase. I would always set this to 24 bit, because you will never record signals that still have signals below -144db. Or you can select 32 bit floating point if you have the option. Then you can also undo clipping in the recording.

Keep in mind that the Adi 2 also do 42-bit integer processing if your volume control is not set to 0 or you have other effects on. It is then truncated to 32 bit integer and played back, no matter what setting you have in Cubase. The settings in Cubase only affect what the DAC is fed with.


Now if you are super paranoid, have ears like a bat and want to have as few bit-depth changes as possible from start to finish then I would do the following:

Set Cubase internal processing to 64 bit fp,
Use the normal driver not high precision mode, change your monitoring volume in the DAW and add a 24 bit TPDF dither to the monitoring path.
Make sure there is no additional processing going on in the ADI-2 and the gain is at 0db.

Recording Bitdepth you can set 24 bit or higher.

That way you have a True 24 bit path from start to finish.

Why not high precision mode?
Because there is no 32 bit TPDF dither on the market smile