1 (edited by themarqueeyears 2024-05-31 19:47:39)

Topic: Help with my new RayDAT and Word Clock

Hi guys,

I have added a RayDAT to my RME collection of interfaces (not all on the same PC of course)

Firstly I don't have the slot space in my new 13900K PC to add the WCM as the RayDAT is already taking up two slots.

My new system is made up of

RME RayDAT
Ferrorish Pulse 16 (over ADAT)
Crane Song HEDD 192 over AES

I won't be tracking with both converters at the same time but when I mix down they will both be active.

Which should be the Master Clock?

I'm thinking I can't make the RayDAT the master clock as it doesn't have BNC output to send to the Pulse and HEDD 192.

Can I make the HEDD 192 the Master WC send WC to the Pulse via BNC and have the RayDAT a slave by locking it to the embedded word clock in the HEDD's AES signal?

Or the Pulse the Master and send BNC to the HEDD 192 and have the RayDAT slave to the Pulse's embedded word clock in it's ADAT stream?

also, I can't understand the terms

"Lock" and "Sync" in the Totalmix DSP applet.

How will these terms refer to my clocking efforts above?

Any help and enlightenment would be very gratefully received.

2 (edited by ramses 2024-05-31 21:23:28)

Re: Help with my new RayDAT and Word Clock

> Firstly I don't have the slot space in my new 13900K PC to add the WCM as the RayDAT is already taking up two slots.

There is no slot free in the case? It doesn't need a PCIe socket on the mainboard.
On the other hand you do not need WC in your setup.
Save the money and the special/additional WC cabling.

> Which should be the Master Clock?

Whatever you prefer. In your setup each of the devices can be clock master and you do not need WC.

RayDAT as clock master has the advantage, that you only have to set the sample rate in the DAW project.
The other devices are clock slaves to the RayDAT and will receive the clock signal from their digital inputs
- Ferrofish, via ADAT IN
- Crane, via AES IN

But you might prefer to use the HEDD as clock master, as this is the most expensive device in the setup
and maybe you want, that the device performs AD/DA conversion by using its own clock.
In this case you need to set clock rate on the HEDD and in the DAW project which is 1 action more.
The RayDAT will receive clock from the HEDD via AES, remove any potential clock jitter to a high degree (by RME's SteadyClock technology) and send the refreshed clock signal out on all digital outputs to other slaves, like the Ferrofish via ADAT.

See also my blog article about clock synch.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … ios-en-de/

PC
|
| [PCIe]
|                                                                                    Pls. note:
RayDAT---ADAT<------------------------>ADAT---Ferrofish   - cabling: 2x TOSLINK in both directions, 4x if double speed
          \----AES<------------------------>AES-----HEDD        - AES is a 2 channel protocol (44.1-192 kHz)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 (edited by themarqueeyears 2024-06-01 00:04:03)

Re: Help with my new RayDAT and Word Clock

Thank you for your help, it is greatly appreciated.
Your article is very helpful to.

There is no free space for the WCM so that was part of my issue.

I think when I switch the HEDD 192 to WC it takes it's reference from the BNC socket on the back, I don't think it can slave to embedded AES clock - but I can check with Crane Song.

I've used 44.1 for the last 20 years and now I've changed u to 48Khz so it's safe to say I don't worry about being able to change all the Ada's centrally from the DAW project as I'll be sticking with 48Khz going forward - I only work on my own projects.

I will experiment as you suggested.

One more question, if that's ok.

How do I know if the RayDAT has locked to incoming clock signals?
Does Totalmix DSP say "Lock" or "Sync" I was a bit confused by that in the manual.

Or is it just a case of setting the clock reference to "internal" if it's to be the master or ADAT or AES if it's to be the slave to the Pulse (ADAT) or HEDD (AES)?

And again in this scenario what does Lock and Sync refer to?

Thank you

4

Re: Help with my new RayDAT and Word Clock

Sorry, but that is all explained in the manual. Including the difference between Sync and Lock.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

5 (edited by ramses 2024-06-01 06:59:37)

Re: Help with my new RayDAT and Word Clock

> I think when I switch the HEDD 192 to WC it takes it's reference from the BNC socket on the back,
> I don't think it can slave to embedded AES clock - but I can check with Crane Song.

Maybe I understood something wrong, but why do you mention WC again, if there is no need for it? ;-)
You do not need WC, it's not any better compared to the clock signal of a digital connection.

If you configure a device as clock master (clock source = "internal"), then it will send a clock signal out on all digital outputs (and WC). On clock slaves you configure, from which digital input to read clock from (or WC).

> I've used 44.1 for the last 20 years and now I've changed u to 48Khz so it's safe to say I don't worry
> about being able to change all the Ada's centrally from the DAW project as I'll be sticking with 48Khz
> going forward - I only work on my own projects.

Then use the Crane Song's HEDD as clock master.

> How do I know if the RayDAT has locked to incoming clock signals?
> Does Totalmix DSP say "Lock" or "Sync" I was a bit confused by that in the manual.

The manual contains several chapters which deal with clock synchronization:
8.1 Settings Dialog
8.5 Clock Modes - Synchronization
9.4 Digital Recording
10.3 Known Problems
19. Word Clock
27.2 Lock and SyncCheck

Lock means a valid digital signal has been detected on an input. This Lock state remains even with small changes of the frequency, because the PLL tracks the receiver's frequency.

The desired state is "sync", this means the clock signal is synchronous, absolutely identical.

In your setup the RayDAT will slave to the HEDD and show the input status sync for the AES input.
The Ferrofish will also slave to the HEDD via RayDAT and show something like a synchronous connection.
As the Ferrofish's ADAT outputs are connected to the RayDAT it will see also a synchronous clock signal on its ADAT inputs.

         /---------AES OUT------------(1.2)----------->AES IN--sync--\
        /--sync--AES IN<------------(1.1)-------------AES OUT---------HEDD [cm]
       /
RayDAT [cs]--ADAT1 OUT---------(2.1)---------->ADAT1 IN--sync--Ferrofish Pulse [cs]
       \----------ADAT2 OUT------------------------->ADAT2 IN--sync---/
        \--sync--ADAT1 IN<---------(2.2)------------ADAT1 OUT-------/
         \--sync-ADAT2 IN<---------------------------ADAT2 OUT------/

cm = clock master
cs = clock slave

Clock distribution and synchronization:

1.1 HEDD is cm and sends clock out via AES
      RayDAT is cs, locks and synchs to the HEDD (RME's SteadyClock eliminates any potential clock jitter)
      and distributes the refreshed clock signal out its digital outputs (AES, ADAT, WC)
1.2 HEDD locks to the digital signal on its AES input and synchs as it detects the clock signal is identical to its own (master)
2.1 Ferrofosh is cs, locks and synchs to the RayDAT (who gets the clock from HEDD)
2.2 RayDAT locks to the digital signal on its ADAT input and synchs as it detects the clock is identical to its own clock (slave)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Help with my new RayDAT and Word Clock

ramses wrote:

> I think when I switch the HEDD 192 to WC it takes it's reference from the BNC socket on the back,
> I don't think it can slave to embedded AES clock - but I can check with Crane Song.

Maybe I understood something wrong, but why do you mention WC again, if there is no need for it? ;-)
You do not need WC, it's not any better compared to the clock signal of a digital connection.

If you configure a device as clock master (clock source = "internal"), then it will send a clock signal out on all digital outputs (and WC). On clock slaves you configure, from which digital input to read clock from (or WC).

> I've used 44.1 for the last 20 years and now I've changed u to 48Khz so it's safe to say I don't worry
> about being able to change all the Ada's centrally from the DAW project as I'll be sticking with 48Khz
> going forward - I only work on my own projects.

Then use the Crane Song's HEDD as clock master.

> How do I know if the RayDAT has locked to incoming clock signals?
> Does Totalmix DSP say "Lock" or "Sync" I was a bit confused by that in the manual.

The manual contains several chapters which deal with clock synchronization:
8.1 Settings Dialog
8.5 Clock Modes - Synchronization
9.4 Digital Recording
10.3 Known Problems
19. Word Clock
27.2 Lock and SyncCheck

Lock means a valid digital signal has been detected on an input. This Lock state remains even with small changes of the frequency, because the PLL tracks the receiver's frequency.

The desired state is "sync", this means the clock signal is synchronous, absolutely identical.

In your setup the RayDAT will slave to the HEDD and show the input status sync for the AES input.
The Ferrofish will also slave to the HEDD via RayDAT and show something like a synchronous connection.
As the Ferrofish's ADAT outputs are connected to the RayDAT it will see also a synchronous clock signal on its ADAT inputs.

         /---------AES OUT------------(1.2)----------->AES IN--sync--\
        /--sync--AES IN<------------(1.1)-------------AES OUT---------HEDD [cm]
       /
RayDAT [cs]--ADAT1 OUT---------(2.1)---------->ADAT1 IN--sync--Ferrofish Pulse [cs]
       \----------ADAT2 OUT------------------------->ADAT2 IN--sync---/
        \--sync--ADAT1 IN<---------(2.2)------------ADAT1 OUT-------/
         \--sync-ADAT2 IN<---------------------------ADAT2 OUT------/

cm = clock master
cs = clock slave

Clock distribution and synchronization:

1.1 HEDD is cm and sends clock out via AES
      RayDAT is cs, locks and synchs to the HEDD (RME's SteadyClock eliminates any potential clock jitter)
      and distributes the refreshed clock signal out its digital outputs (AES, ADAT, WC)
1.2 HEDD locks to the digital signal on its AES input and synchs as it detects the clock signal is identical to its own (master)
2.1 Ferrofosh is cs, locks and synchs to the RayDAT (who gets the clock from HEDD)
2.2 RayDAT locks to the digital signal on its ADAT input and synchs as it detects the clock is identical to its own clock (slave)

Thank you so much for taking the time to offer me this detailed reply.

Unfortunately, I don’t seem capable of reading the manual and understanding these terms - my expertise is generally all focused as a musician- I struggle with technical terminology.

However, your explanation is excellent and I’m finally able to understand everything.

I’m very grateful for your time and kindness helping me.

Thank you

Re: Help with my new RayDAT and Word Clock

You're welcome and thanks for your positive feedback.
I wish you lots of fun with the new setup and if you like, just let me know how it works.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8 (edited by themarqueeyears 2024-07-02 09:44:16)

Re: Help with my new RayDAT and Word Clock

ramses wrote:

You're welcome and thanks for your positive feedback.
I wish you lots of fun with the new setup and if you like, just let me know how it works.

Hi ramses,

It's all working perfectly, exactly as you described.

I'm using the HEDD 192 as my master clock then exactly as you said the RME syncs to that and then distributes the refreshed clock signal out via ADAT and the Pulse 16 is syncing perfectly to the RME RayDAT.

As you said, I didn't need WC at all.

Had it not been for you kindly taking the time to explain it all, I honestly would never of understood how it all goes together.

I now realise on my old set up (Multiface MK1 and HEDD 192) the HEDD 192 was never "synced" to the Multiface - for 16 years I was using the HEDD 192 with the Multiface only showing "locked" and I stupidly thought that was correct.

How I avoided clicks and pops I don't know!

Anyway, this new set-up is all perfectly and properly "synced" and I actually understand how it works - thanks to you!

Best wishes.

9 (edited by ramses 2024-07-02 10:47:03)

Re: Help with my new RayDAT and Word Clock

Thank you for your kind feedback, and I am pleased that everything is now working so well and, above all, is set up properly. And yes, a "lock" alone is not enough, it has to be "sync" wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13