1 (edited by Babaluma 2024-06-12 15:06:32)

Topic: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

I currently use unbalanced HD600s with the Pro 2/4 SE, using the PH 1/2 output on the front (I can't use PH 3/4 because it's wired to the balanced output on the back driving an analogue VU meter at a fixed gain) but I've just ordered a balanced Pentaconn connector for them, because I want to try balanced phones for the first time.

Does the Pentaconn output always just follow the main Source, i.e. USB or Optical etc., or is it fixed to only output what goes to PH 3/4, which won't be ideal for me? If that's the case I guess I could save a Setup just for Pentaconn use.

Sorry if it's a silly question, just wondering before the cable arrives!

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

2

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

Pentaconn is PH3/4, so follows the input as set in PH3/4 Settings page.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

Thanks for the quick response. It's as I thought, but no problem, I can save a setup just for Pentaconn use, then forgo the VU meter (not necessary) when headphone listening.

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

4 (edited by KaiS 2024-06-12 23:15:17)

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

Babaluma wrote:

Thanks for the quick response. It's as I thought, but no problem, I can save a setup just for Pentaconn use, then forgo the VU meter (not necessary) when headphone listening.

There‘s another option:

Get an cheapo DA-converter and connect it to Coax or Optical digital output, just for the VU-meter.
The block diagrams on manual, pages 40-46, show the digital outputs’ routing options for the various “modes”.

You can have an output independent from volume control.

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

Thanks KaiS, that was suggested to me before, and is a good idea. How much are suitable cheapo DACs these days? If it was small enough it could live behind the VU meter.

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

6 (edited by KaiS 2024-06-13 09:15:26)

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

Babaluma wrote:

Thanks KaiS, that was suggested to me before, and is a good idea. How much are suitable cheapo DACs these days? If it was small enough it could live behind the VU meter.

Look at your country’s Amazon offerings.

Just make sure it has Coax or Optical input and can handle the max. sample rate you intend to throw at it.
192 kHz BTW is the SPDIF limit.

A level control might come handy to calibrate the VU if it doesn’t already have this.
If your VU’s are passive, a ‘phones output might be good to drive them.
Sound quality is of absolutely no concern in this application, of course.

Here’s an example, at 13 bucks:
https://www.amazon.de/Wandler-TEAMPD-Ko … amp;sr=8-9

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71IZP9FH7hL._SX522_.jpg

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

Thanks, that is cheap! I never go above 192kHz (for pleasure listening/hi res files) so that will be no problem, and I always work at 96k.

I've been using this Crookwood VU meter (with Sifam VUs and balanced XLR inputs) for 13 years now, which has switched 3dB attenuation steps from 0 to -15dB, so all good there:

https://crookwood.com/vu-meters/2u-stereo-vu-meter/

The only other concern would be if the cheapo DAC has enough juice to power the VU. Right now I work at a calibration level of 0dBVU = -14dBFS (1k sine wave), and the PH 3/4 signal switched to be sent out of the rear balanced outputs on the Pro 2/4 has to be set to Hi Power and -0.5 on the volume control to get there.

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

8 (edited by KaiS 2024-06-13 12:11:06)

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

Babaluma wrote:

I've been using this Crookwood VU meter (with Sifam VUs and balanced XLR inputs) for 13 years now, which has switched 3dB attenuation steps from 0 to -15dB, so all good there:

https://crookwood.com/vu-meters/2u-stereo-vu-meter/

The only other concern would be if the cheapo DAC has enough juice to power the VU. Right now I work at a calibration level of 0dBVU = -14dBFS (1k sine wave), and the PH 3/4 signal switched to be sent out of the rear balanced outputs on the Pro 2/4 has to be set to Hi Power and -0.5 on the volume control to get there.

This would be 6.5 V or +18.5 dBu for a 0 dBFS / full scale signal, or +4.5 dBu for your -14 dBFS reference sine wave.

Typically home hifi DAC‘s output 2 V / +8.2 dBu at 0 dBFS, so I wouldn‘t expect more than this.

In the Crookwood 2 VU’s user guide several calibration options (even the black ones at the back of the meters with quite some range) are mentioned, I guess it can be fitted.


From my practical experience a calibration of digital -6 dBFS = analog 0 VU fits quite well for having popmusic final masters show around 0 VU.

The Crockwood’s manual’s example of -14 dBFS = 0 VU is for tracking of instruments and vocals (more headroom), but I don’t find VUs very useful for tracking.
On tracking it’s the digital peak level that really matters.

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

Thanks for all your help. Yeah, I don't do much tracking, but have always found VUs super useful in mastering.

The 3dB attenuator steps are great because they can work with anything I've ever thrown at it, from very quiet to smashed loudness wars material, at that -14 dBFS reference. Your -6 = 0VU is very close to where I have the attenuator set when mastering or playing back loud things (-6 or -9 on the attenuator faceplate).

My VU box is the old type which doesn't have the "rough" analogue calibration trim pot on the back unfortunately, only the ones on the VUs themselves, which have a very narrow range for fine tuning, so it's hard to recalibrate them too far from the -14 ref.

I think taking all this into account, a cheap DAC probably won't power the VU properly, but I'll have a look at a few models to see if any might have enough power. I'm happy to save a Setup where I forgo the VU when using the cans, as I never master on cans anyway, they are just for pleasure listening/streaming and occasional spot checks.

I ordered the balanced cable and so have some time to contemplate it all, I might not like them balanced anyway!

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

Babaluma wrote:

I currently use unbalanced HD600s with the Pro 2/4 SE, using the PH 1/2 output on the front (I can't use PH 3/4 because it's wired to the balanced output on the back driving an analogue VU meter at a fixed gain) but I've just ordered a balanced Pentaconn connector for them, because I want to try balanced phones for the first time.

HD 600´s drivers begin to clip about +18-20 dBu voltage -ballpark. So, no use for this "balanced" (it is BRIDGED in this context, actually) driving method for HD 600. ADI can whip it to its maximum output SPL-levels already in "unbalanced" driving mode.


P.S. Why even RME uses this audiophool bullshit term "balanced" regarding bridging of amplifier stages? Could be disregarded for some regular audiophoolery company, but the RME... engineer-Christ´s sake.

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

I'm just interested to try it out, after reading about it for decades. 3m OFC cable from AliExpress was only €40 shipped, so it's a worthwhile gamble, IMO. I'm just interested to hear the difference (or not).

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

12

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

MstrC-117 wrote:

P.S. Why even RME uses this audiophool bullshit term "balanced" regarding bridging of amplifier stages? Could be disregarded for some regular audiophoolery company, but the RME... engineer-Christ´s sake.

Using 'bridged' would cause a lot of confusion and takes away our time explaining this to customers, because nobody else uses it. Not to mention that from outside the unit you have no way to find out if this is 'balanced' or 'bridged' or whatever.

Also - did you read the manual?

This technique is mostly used in car audio, as the operating voltage is limited to 12 Volt, and balanced operation, here called bridging, delivers double the output voltage and four times the output power to the speaker.

Having a problem with this labeling is nitpicking, not 'Christ's sake'.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

13

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

@Babaluma: you must have missed a post of mine where I explained how I did it for my HD650. The Sennheiser cable is not that expensive as spare part, and it has the four separated wires down to the TRS plug. Cut that one off and solder whatever you want for balanced mode (XLR, double TRS, Pentaconn...). Example:

https://www.thomann.de/de/sennheiser_hd … zkabel.htm

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

Thanks MC. It was worth it for me to just pay the €40 so I wouldn't have the pain of soldering up four tiny wires to a tiny Pentaconn jack!

Thanks all, I'll report back when the cable arrives and I've done some listening tests, it has shipped now!

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

15

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

Babaluma wrote:

Thanks MC. It was worth it for me to just pay the €40 so I wouldn't have the pain of soldering up four tiny wires to a tiny Pentaconn jack!

100% agree wink

Please give a link to the cable you ordered.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

16 (edited by Babaluma 2024-06-14 09:37:54)

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

There were many options, cheaper and more expensive, but this one seemed to have a good balance (pun intended...) of price vs. quality. I chose it with 3m length and of course the 4.4mm balanced Pentaconn connector:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004 … 1802uDnwoy

BTW the newer HD660S2 cans also come with a Pentaconn cable as standard, so you could probably order one direct from Sennheiser spare parts (I'm pretty sure they have the same connectors on the headphone end).

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

17 (edited by MstrC-117 2024-06-14 21:55:02)

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

MC wrote:

Using 'bridged' would cause a lot of confusion and takes away our time explaining this to customers, because nobody else uses it. Not to mention that from outside the unit you have no way to find out if this is 'balanced' or 'bridged' or whatever.

Also - did you read the manual?

This technique is mostly used in car audio, as the operating voltage is limited to 12 Volt, and balanced operation, here called bridging, delivers double the output voltage and four times the output power to the speaker.

Nobody else uses it??

Every power amplifier back panel, what I have seen during 25 years and has this function, has label BRIDGED or BRIDGED MONO  printed nearby switch or button that operates it. ADI´s phones outputs are mini sized power amplifiers, and function is similar, so whats the difference?


Aha... so it´s mentioned in 104 pages manual somewhere. Great. Now that would need to get to wider use from there... mostly manual uses this "balanced".
 

On ADI-2 Pro´s front panel reads this BAL between Phones -outputs. ADI´s setting menu entry and display´s UI element regarding this function refer to "Balanced Phones" and "BAL", too.

Could well be confused with some differential, noise rejection tech used in balanced XLR line outputs. But there is this, and also impedance balanced TRS line outputs on the back: three different "balanced" output -things in total. All meaning different thing. Very, very confusing... most even tech-savvy-but-non-audio-engineer -users (and about all home and studio -basic idiots) will be out like snowmen.   

MC wrote:

Having a problem with this labeling is nitpicking, not 'Christ's sake'.


No, I don´t have a problem with it. smile Just saying. To friendly remind to stick on RME standards and normal Lederhosen -practice to do things 100.00% correct. This little labeling/terminology thing just sticks out.

And so what, which BS-term internet -parrot-morons widely use of it. The RME is presumed to be a role model and use the technically CORRECT term, as always.


Not normal Christ´s. But the audio engineer-Christ´s with Lederhosen and platinum AES-card. He would sacrifice himself right away to redeem audio world for such a technically vague, confusing and unprecise audiophoolery -cross terminology.

18 (edited by KaiS 2024-06-15 06:22:09)

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

I‘ve NEVER seen any headphone amp in the world using “bridged” for balanced ‘phones out.

If RME started with it, people wouldn’t understand.


Technically the term balanced is correct, same “weight” with opposing directions on both branches of the signal wire.

It’s EXACTLY the same schematic like an active “balanced” line out, which no one would call “bridged” - a less correct term BTW - where is that “bridge”?

Balanced phones amps technically use “differential” signal out, like most of the line out variants below.
This is again no reason to use that label here.


Next - it’s not RME’s fault - and nobody else’s - that for signal transfer multiple variants of balanced outs are possible:

• Transformer balanced without ground reference.
• Transformer balanced with ground reference.
• Active electronically balanced with level compensation when connected to single ended destination.
• Active electronically balanced without level compensation when connected to single ended destination.
• Impedance balanced.

All the above without, and with source/destination impedance matching (for long distance and/or high frequency interconnects).

It’s a plus that RME mentions the used variants in the manual, even giving connection advice.
This information is important for proper use, in a complex recording studio environment e.g. it can make a difference.


Finally - in all cases the balanced noise suppression happens in the destination only BTW, by no means in the source.

19

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

MstrC-117 wrote:

Nobody else uses it??

Every power amplifier back panel

This is about Phones outputs. Not Lederhosen. (Lederhosen versus kilts: 5:1!)

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

20

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

KaiS wrote:

It’s EXACTLY the same schematic like an active “balanced” line out, which no one would call “bridged” - a less correct term BTW - where is that “bridge”?

Even more so as the 2/4 Pro has a completely balanced (differential) signal path from DA to Pentaconn, as explained in the manual.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Pro 2/4 SE Pentaconn Source

Got the balanced cable today! It is of very high quality look and feel, metal parts and connections, cable is light, tough, but flexible etc. Looks and feels higher quality than the regular HD600 and HD650 cables from Sennheiser themselves. Fits the HD600s perfectly.

I made a new ADI Pro 2/4 "Setup" preset just for Balanced PH 34 and it works great. Sound quality is fantastic, but of course it's impossible for me to easily A/B with the old cable when it takes over 30 seconds to swap them over, and I refuse to be swayed by bias, so will just leave it at that. I am very happy with the purchase, and finally get to hear them balanced. smile

The AliExpress link is posted above, it was €39 at the time, for a 3m cable, with free shipping, and no import tax/duty fees, for anyone else interested.

https://musicwall.app/hermetech