• Registered: 2015-10-29
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Topic: Best way to wire a new house

I am a pro musician, composer and renovating a house.
We have a "Live Room" and the main studio downstairs. I have the opportunity to wire what I want (Wife is the Architect). In saying that however, we cant run an analog XLR snake as the cable is too big to get through the floor cavity. In the "live room" I was hoping to accommodate for about 16 TRS/XLR's going to the Studio whilst receiving 4 stereo lines back from the studio (Headphones etc).

I appreciate that I will have to put the mic pre's and line level amps in the "Live room" and send them to the studio downstairs.

What is the best most cost effective way to do this? I don't have any MADI/Dante gear at the moment. I do have a lot of pre's with ADAT outs on them.

I'm thinking MADI?? but what is the most cost effective way to do this? Do I buy the RME 12Mic and run it Madi over coax to downstairs? Am I able to control the mic/line levels via Total Mix over the Madi cable or do I need to run another? I assume this is a one way connection and I will need a 2nd coax to "Send" the headphone signal back to the live room?

Or will one DANTE connection over ONE CAT 5 port solve this? (It will be a direct connection, no router).

I could run two long lines of optical I guess,...that would be the cheapest but that doesn't have midi control of the mic pre's adjustment.

The interfaces I currently have are Fireface 800, UFX (original) and a BABYFACE FS.
The pre's with digital out I have at the moment are the Focusrite 828 and the Universal Audio 4-710d. (The other pre's are all analog)

I have also some ADAT "HearBack" boxes that convert ADAT to ethernet.



Any thoughts about the best way to do this and what the most cost effective way to run this?

  • ramses
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Re: Best way to wire a new house

MADI is a cost effective solution.
You can chain devices.
OM3 or OM4 multimode cables are quite thin and can be up to 2km between each of the devices in a chain.
Advantages: galvanic isolation, and a dedicated transport for audio independend from any LAN switch.
Dante: add on costs because of 3rd party audinate switch and you might need QoS configuration on switches to give audio packets prio or you would need to create dedicated VLANs to split office and audio/recording traffic and one device would need to route.
Remote controlling 12Mic is easy using RME connector, works via "MIDI over MADI".
But best provide a LAN connection for only the remote management of the 12Mic via LAN port using Webbrowser.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • babul
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Re: Best way to wire a new house

I have a similar setup at my home, which I am very happy with. I am not a professional at any of this, just a more than serious hobbyist. I think its all cost effective for my use case, but that is clearly debatable haha. You have a LOT of options to consider to achieve your results, and boy do I feel for you! I'll detail what I painfully arrived at over a year of trial and error. My main use case is to record full bands live (up to 6 piece bands) along with video. This is just my audio side of things.

I am using MADI over Fiber and a network cable to connect my studio and my live rooms together. In my Live Room I have my 12Mic, Pulse 16 MX, a small network switch, 500 rack, as well as my mic pres. In my Studio I have my UFX III which is the master of the show. I used to have an ADAT link between studio and live room using an Audient ASP800 over coax, but I ended up using the Pulse16 for my analog pres, so I removed the ADAT link between the rooms. If I had a "lot" of ADATs I probably consider a Digiface USB.

I stopped using wired headphones in my live room a decade ago and use a single Sennheiser ew300 IEM transmitter instead (everyone gets the same headphone mix).

I am able to control mic levels on my 12Mic over MADI which I control in a browser, which is a fabulous unit. For other analog mic pres (warm audio 412, 273, 500 rack) I or a helper have to physically adjust in the live room as needed. I thought this might be a sticking point, but in all honesty I have my "stock" settings I dial in for a new session, and as time has gone on we don't waiver from those stock settings too often anymore. Minor adjustments, if any.

The wonderful things about MADI are all clocking runs over it, the cable lengths can be long, cables are cheap, and the cables are small and "flexible" enough to route almost anywhere. Coax is also cheap but the cable is thicker and needs more clearance to weave through and around, not to mention dealing with termination (not a huge deal but still a thing).

MADI is not a one way connection. It all depends on what you have on MADI and its capabilities. For example with my Pulse 16 I can send or receive audio to/from it. My 12Mic in comparison I just receive audio from (not strictly true as it does have a headphone port I can send a mix to).

Another note about the Pulse16... I can remotely control the input/output volumes over MADI (it does not have a network connection like the 12Mic does). That is NOT the same as controlling gain or other levels from my mic pres (I did briefly think that wink). IMHO I REALLY wish the Pulse16 had a network interface as that would be more future-proof than depending on software on my computer, but its not something I stress over. I love my Pulse 16! Now that the M-1610 Pro/M-1620 Pro is out that is another (more costly) alternative.

DANTE was not in my budget when I did all of this, so I know nothing about DANTE other than what I have read. But in theory a DANTE/MILAN/network approach to audio sounds to hit many many other use cases versus strictly an audio system.

I hope that helps is some small way big_smile It was so daunting and overwhelming to get to where I am at now. I am sooooooo happy with how it all works, its all kinds of amazing!

If you have any questions let me know. Good luck on your adventure!

Apple Mac Studio M1 Max, Sonoma, RME UFX III, 12Mic, Pulse 16 MX, Softube Console 1, Studio One 6
  • ramses
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Re: Best way to wire a new house

Clock distribution, another advantage of MADI over AVB/Dante.
If you are working with different sample rates then AVB and I think also Dante requires reconfiguration of audio streams for each of the connected devices, which can be a lot of work
With MADI it is simpler, the clock slaves automatically follow the clock which they get from their MADI input.
If you use double speed (>48 kHz) do not forget to configure 96k MADI frame size in the driver settings.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2015-10-29
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Re: Best way to wire a new house

Thank you all for your replies! Really appreciate it. Madi definitely seems the best option here. Just to confirm, other than a madi cable, (and I would need two for the ability to be bidirectional yes?) do I also need a lan (cat5) cable to control the mic ore levels of the mic12?

So now we have three plug sockets?

6 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-06-22 09:29:06)

  • ramses
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Re: Best way to wire a new house

My current setup, overview:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … -v002-jpg/


See the MADI wiring here in my blog article between three devices:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … iii-en-de/


The three devices racked (UFX III, 12Mic, Octamic XTC)
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … front-jpg/


The driver settings (UFX III)
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … tings-jpg/


Remote control using "RME connector", remote control via "MIDI over MADI"
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … -0b15-jpg/


See here the MADI cabling
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachment/3079-09-rack-back-madi-extfx-cabling-jpg/


And from an older article
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … -DURec-DE/


See here the MADI wiring schematics, one device after the other and back to UFX +/III
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachment/2777-mysetup-cabling-jpg/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • babul
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Re: Best way to wire a new house

Technically the network cable for controlling mic levels of 12mic is optional as it can be done over MIDI-over-MADI but I prefer using the web interface using the network cable. Otherwise you can use the "RME Connector" software as Ramses mentioned which allows you to control mic levels and no network cable is required (though it is supported using that software also).

Just be careful to get the correct MADI Fiber cables for your setup. For the UFX III it uses "SC" (larger) connectors while the 12Mic and Pulse16 use "LC" (smaller) connectors. I got my cables from Amazon and ordered (1) SC to LC OM2 Fiber Patch cable and (1) LC to LC OM2 Fiber Cable to interconnect my 12mic & Pulse16 together.

I would not call MADI bi-directional as much as I would say you are creating a MADI "loop". MADI OUT from the UFX III goes to the next device to MADI IN, then that device MADI OUT to the next MADI IN, and so on, until the final MADI OUT goes back to the UFX III MADI IN.

Apologies I don't understand "three plug sockets". Do you mean power?

Apple Mac Studio M1 Max, Sonoma, RME UFX III, 12Mic, Pulse 16 MX, Softube Console 1, Studio One 6

8 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-06-23 17:45:01)

  • ramses
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Re: Best way to wire a new house

babul wrote:

Technically the network cable for controlling mic levels of 12mic is optional

Not fully, you need it e.g. for configuration of routing inside the MADI device and firmware updates (@babul: just noticed your comment below; yes, another good example, thanks). I would provide a LAN connection in case.

Some configuration stuff needs to be done
- at the display: e.g. MADI frame 96k (*)
- in the Web browser (via LAN): routing as mentioned above (*)

(*) Possibly other things as well. I do not remember anymore, as it was a couple of years ago.

Once the setup has been finalized, you can use RME connector exclusively for remote controlling the "more usual things".

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • babul
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Re: Best way to wire a new house

Ah yes excellent points! And firmware updates happen through the LAN connection big_smile

Apple Mac Studio M1 Max, Sonoma, RME UFX III, 12Mic, Pulse 16 MX, Softube Console 1, Studio One 6
  • Registered: 2015-10-29
  • Posts: 46

Re: Best way to wire a new house

Thank you all for your help. I'm going to go with the Duplex Madi Optical. What kind of cable should I use (Could someone send a link please?) that will then be connected to wall plates on the skirting? I'm looking at this https://www.alva-audio.de/en/madi_cable … le_duplex/ but need each end to go to a socket on the skirting of each room so I can then connect another cable to each MADI Box. Is this what I'm looking for for each end? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33015716091.html (Australia here)

11 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-06-30 09:39:21)

  • ramses
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Re: Best way to wire a new house

I would leave the installation of structured cabling for (multimode) fiber cables to a professional. A multimode fiber installation cable without connectors should be terminated in the wall outlet by a specialist with the right tools. This task requires special equipment, expertise, and measuring tools to check attenuation and ensure the link is good, which isn't possible without them.

If you want to save money and since devices are usually connected in a chain, you could simply drill a hole through the wall between adjacent rooms and run the fiber cable through it. You can then neatly route the cable using self-adhesive cable channels (Available at any hardware store), such as sticking them onto tile trim. While the adhesive might not hold well on its own, you can secure it firmly with double-sided Tesa Powerbond tape (three small squares along a 1.5m length: front, middle, and back).

Cabling example: Random setup of "3 Rooms, UFX III, 2x 12Mic"

|---------------Room1---------------|Wall|---------------Room2---------------|Wall|---------------Room3---------------|
       UFX III---------------->-------------------12Mic#1-------------->--------------------12Mic#2
          |                  SC/LC (OM4)                                     LC/LC (OM4)                      |
          |                                                                                                                     |
         +---------------------<----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                             SC/LC (OM4)

So called "patch cables" (with plugs) are available up to 30m or even 50m. The only problem by using patch cables could arise, if 50m is the maximum and not sufficient to connect 3rd device back to the first.
Maybe for this you might need "structured" inhouse fibler cabling.

If you should do this then base everything on OM4 cables, this is the new de-facto standard also for computer networks.
For higher speeds (10 Gbits and higher) longer cable length are supported.
Not needed for audio / RME, but it has about the same price as OM3, so better use OM4.

It is best not to mix OM3 and OM4 cables in one communication path otherwise you get a higher dampening which is not so beneficial. I would avoid such things as it is not clear when exactly problems could arise because of higher dampening.
And this situation can happen easily with a mix of inhouse and patch cables if it is not clear what has type of cable (OM3 or OM4) has been deployed. Even worse: in the past OM3 and OM4 had the same aquamarine color and could not be distinguished easily (only by measuing, but who has measuring equipment lying around for that purpose....).

Therefore for OM4 a new standard has been developed (mainly in Europe in use I read) to use Erika Violet color, so that OM4 cables can be recognized much easier and so that you do not have to measure.
For all these reasons I would - if possible - stick to OM4 cables with this Erika Violet color!

If you should have already structured inhouse fiber cabling, you should check what this is, OM3 or OM4 and buy then the same type as patch cable.

The ALVA cables are SC cables, only suitable for the UFX III which has such SC plugs.
The ALVA patch cables are available up to 50m, the cable drum even up to 300m or longer on request.
But I do not know exactly what this orange color code means, OM3 or OM4.
If you want to make business with them, ask if they can (ideally) provide OM4 in Violet color
and whether you can get SC-SC and SC-LC cables from them.

Single mode is not needed, multimode cables can be 2km long between each of the devices in a chain.
Single mode supports up to 10km between each of the devices, is laser based, not friendly to the eyes, do not look into it.
For the 12Mic you can easily swap transceiver to get single mode (IF needed), but for the UFX III you would need to raise a special order so that they deliver to you a model with single mode. I would avoid that if any possible to make this device not "too special".

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14