Topic: Add Digiface USB to my current Multiface 2

Hello,

I currently use a Multiface 2 interface with PCI interface.  I want to add ADAT channels for Atmos.  Can I add a Digiface USB to my computer and combine them both so Studio One and Nuendo see them as one ASIO driver?  I don't want to do the disconnect mode with my Multiface 2.  I want both to be seen alive at the same time and be able to control them in one Total Mix session using my ARC controller.  Is this possible?

Thank you!

**Does this belong in the USB due to Digiface or HDSPe due to Multiface 2, or can I do both sub-forums?**

Multiface 2, Lavry DA10, Bricasti M7 V2, ATC Monitors
Windows 7 64-bit, i930 Processor, Cubase 6.5

2 (edited by waedi 2024-06-30 03:12:48)

Re: Add Digiface USB to my current Multiface 2

Unfortunately : no
Both interface have their own Totalmix a combo-Totalmix is not possible.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

3 (edited by ramses 2024-06-30 08:54:34)

Re: Add Digiface USB to my current Multiface 2

The two recording interfaces use different ASIO drivers, but you can load only one ASIO driver in your DAW. To work around this, you could use the third-party software ASIO4ALL to combine various audio drivers (ASIO and non-ASIO) and communicate with your DAW via the ASIO protocol. In the DAW, you load the ASIO4ALL driver, granting access to all recording interfaces (regardless of driver type) and even USB microphones. However, this undermines the ASIO driver concept, which typically allows direct, high-quality, low-latency access to recording hardware. By adding an extra driver layer with ASIO4ALL, you lose these advantages. This setup is unsupported by the manufacturer (RME) because third-party software is introduced into the audio flow, meaning the application no longer has direct access to the hardware, negating RME's high driver quality.

Even if you use multiple devices with the same RME ASIO driver, there are limitations. First, all devices must be clock-synchronized, either via Word Clock (which the Digiface USB lacks) or a digital "cross-connection" (ASIO, SPDIF, etc.). The DAW can access all recording interfaces since they use the same ASIO driver.

However, each device is controlled by its own instance of TotalMix FX, and there's no internal "backplane" in the driver to connect these interfaces. This means you can't route inputs or software playback channels from one interface to the outputs of another within TotalMix. Such routing between different interfaces can only be done through the DAW, resulting in significantly higher latency compared to near-real-time routing within a device's matrix.

Another option is to create a cross-connection between interfaces via ADAT I/O ports, which also handles clock synchronization. However, this is limited to routing only 8 channels via ADAT at single speed (44.1, 48 kHz) and just 4 at double speed (88.2, 96 kHz). This setup is also less convenient, as you need to route a selection of channels to the ADAT "crosslink" on one interface and correspondingly route these ADAT channels to outputs on the other interface.

TotalMix FX allows you to switch between multiple interfaces within a single window, keeping only one window open on your screen. Alternatively, you can open separate TM FX windows for each recording interface and arrange them on your desktop. When you save a TM FX workspace, it also saves the positions of all TM FX windows, which can be restored as needed.

ARC USB
The ARC USB should be activated for only one of the connected recording interfaces; otherwise, actions will be executed on all interfaces simultaneously, which usually leads to undesired results. You cannot instruct the ARC USB to perform actions for specific interfaces.
Therefore, activate the ARC USB only for the interface to which monitors and headphones are connected—the "main interface."

In contrast to that Apples "aggregate device"

With Apple, it's different. There's no direct hardware access like with ASIO; all audio flows go through the Apple sound system. Apple’s OS allows the creation of aggregate devices, a solution supported by RME because it operates within the Apple sound system, through which all audio must pass. This is unlike ASIO4ALL, which is an added "fake" ASIO layer that only mimics the ASIO protocol without providing direct hardware access.

Here are your options:

1. Buy the Digiface USB, synchronize it with the Multiface via ADAT, and route through the DAW. While you could route individual channels via an ADAT cross-connection using ASIO4ALL, I don't recommend this unsupported setup. It would be a makeshift solution, and you wouldn't be leveraging RME's strengths, like driver stability and low latency.

2. Get a second or third Multiface, synchronize them via Word Clock or an ADAT cross-link. With one ASIO driver, the DAW can access all connected Multifaces. RME tests up to three Multifaces; more might work depending on your PC and whether it can handle the channel count over PCI.

3. The best solution, and my recommendation, is to get a single RME recording interface that provides the needed number of I/O ports, allowing near-real-time routing of any input or software playback channel to any output within the interface.

You might need to consider the 802 FS, UFX II, or UFX III with MADI. I'm speculating here, as your exact connectivity needs haven't been discussed in this thread.

Maybe another possibility, RayDAT (PCIe) based

Another option that provides plenty of ADAT I/O for connecting other devices is to install one or two RayDAT cards in your computer. Clock synchronization can be achieved via Word Clock (WC), saving the cost of optional WC modules by using internal connectors between the cards inside the PC (see RayDAT manual, via X400 Sync In and X401 Sync Out).
This setup ensures clock synchronization. Alternatively, you could use cross-connections, with the card offering ADAT, SPDIF (coax), and AES options.

The advantage of this solution is that it provides two high-quality, fully digital PCIe cards with extensive connectivity. A single RayDAT PCIe card offers: 4x ADAT (one switchable to optical SPDIF), SPDIF (coax), AES, and 2x MIDI. There are no analog ports, so you would need to connect external converters or preamps via ADAT, either from RME or other manufacturers if budget constraints apply. A very budget friendly solution is to use ADA8200 which can be used as Mic Preamp and AD/DA converter (limited to single speed, not more than 48 kHz is possible). But you could also connect other devices like recording interfaces in stand-alone mode that can load their config and the needed routing during power-on. Alternatively install their drivers to be able to at least operate them with their management software. You wouldn't use the driver in the DAW, only for operating those devices.

At a later point the RayDATs would also allow you, to integrate an RME reference converter for high-quality monitoring. The ADI-2 Pro (or ADI-2/4 Pro SE) can be connected via AES, leaving ADAT ports free for other external devices.

But remember, as I mentioned already, every RayDAT is kind of "isolated" (no internal "backplane" between multiple cards).
You have to work with two TotalMix FX "windows" / "instances".
To route channels from one to the other card you need either to route through the DAW with higher latency or though a digital "cross-link" with near-zero latency.
The RayDAT also provides internal connectors to create such a crosslink, see manual.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

4 (edited by Maestro2be 2024-07-02 03:43:43)

Re: Add Digiface USB to my current Multiface 2

Ramses,

What an incredible response full of everything I needed to know.  A huge stroke of luck hit me yesterday that was totally unexpected and changed my direction a little.  The entire purpose of this was to get myself 16-24 channels of 24/96 minimum for an atmos configuration.  Last night I was able to secure an RME M-32 D/A convertor for an unbelievable price so I bought it from him on the spot.

So now I have my D/A converter solution completely solved for many many years to come.  Now let's discuss interfaces to finish this configuration.

With the new converter my options open up a little bit.  Specifically because now I have MADI capability in the mix and would be quite silly to not use it at this point.  Probably would get me 10 years at least.  I have had 2 interfaces in 25 years.  RME Multiface, then Multiface 2 which still rocks my world today.  So I am looking only at interfaces that have MADI I/O now.  Displacing my Multiface 2 (I might use it still as it's in the PCIe slot and this new interface will be USB3 most likely).  Depends if there is still any use for it.  I am thinking some options here:

Option 1 - MADIFace USB - very clean and slick.  No additional options.  Just clean digital power and superb D/A through my M-32.  Almost a one cable and done solution.  Probably isn't going to get much simpler than this option.

Option 2 - MADIFace XT - Incredibly more powerful option.  Monitor outputs, SPDIF outputs, double or more channels, PCIe connector (I love this for future proofing).  Very expensive.  No more difficult to setup that my Multiface was it seems.  It says it has this interface connector on it but I don't understand how to use it or what it would take.  Anyone know what plugs in here to use this port?

PCI Express. External PCI Express connector for Molex E-PCIe standard cables.

Option 3 - DIGIFace USB - 4 x 4 ADAT outputs for 16 channels of 24/96.  Nothing more to it.  Super cheap option.  Not many if any more options to this one.  Just as option 1, easy clean simple solution.

Option 4 - Fireface UFX III - This option has everything.  MADI, ADAT, SPDIF, MIDI, MIC Inputs etc.  This is basically my Multiface on steroids.  I love everything about it except missing the PCIe or Thunderbolt option for future proofing.  This is a one and done solution that has everything and anything I would ever need that I can see/think of right now.

Some of these options are extermely affordable while my two favorite options are very pricey coming in at over 3k.  I am not so super worried about whether I can afford it or not.  I am more concerned if I need it or not.  I will be controlling everything with an ARC.  I know I am not unique.  May if not most people obsess and always think they need more than they really do but always give in to the much more expensive option.  I realize I have now in my hands one of the best converters in the world and 32 channels of 24/192khz using MADI.  Thing is I will only use 16-20 at this point I am sure and are people even asking for Atmos recordings over 24/48k?  I haven't watched or listened to multichannel music higher than that yet.  Perhaps it's way more common than I know right now based on my jobs and better be prepared for the fact that 24/96 or 24/192 is literally right around the corner for producers to be asking me for it.  If that's the case then so be it, I will do it.  If I can live with say as an example:

Option 5 - Keep my Multiface 2 and set it to 24/48k.  Run an the ADAT output into my new D/A using 8 channels of 24/48k.  I now can support 5.1, 5.1.4, 5.4.6, 5.4.6, 7.1, 7.1.4, 7.1.6, 7.4.6.

I haven't seen to much if any 9.1.6 material but I know it gets talked about all the time.  That means 9.4.6 will also be expected for the people who have 4 subs (I myself have this in my theater).  But is this really the mainstream or requirements?  Or are we currently living in a world where we just basically create 5.1.4 and 7.1.4 and people rely on their processor to upmix to all the other speakers in their configuration.

Option 5 is the easiest and cheapest of them all with zero change to my studio.  But if it's not fitting the bill of what you see out there and it's very quickly going to get pushed on me by my people too then so be it.

What do you think is my best option?  Many friends and other musicians seem to think that I am absolutely fine staying with my multiface 2 and the new D/A because they don't believe that we can hear anything above that anyway and producers should accept my music at 24/48k just fine.

Thanks!

Multiface 2, Lavry DA10, Bricasti M7 V2, ATC Monitors
Windows 7 64-bit, i930 Processor, Cubase 6.5

5 (edited by ramses 2024-07-02 10:17:15)

Re: Add Digiface USB to my current Multiface 2

I would get a MADI capable interface supporting Room EQ.

MADI offers several advantages to you

1. 64ch at single speed and still 32ch at double speed, so that producing / monitoring even at double speed would be possible for you.

2. More flexible placement of components. ADAT is limited to around 10m (15m possible with RME). MADI uses multimode fiber cable where you can also chain devices on one MADI bus one after the other. The cable length can be up to 2 km between each of the components. Patch cables are available from 50cm up to 50m. I would use OM4 cable.

3. Fewer cables. You do not need MIDI cabling for remote control of RME units which allow for that, like the M-32 DA. Passive MIDI cabling is also length restricted, max 15m, and the cables are usually relatively stiff.
RME's "MIDI over MADI" feature uses unused bits in the MADI protocol header to perform MIDI communication, which can be used for remote controlling also the M-32 DA with the MIDI Remote utility (free of charge).
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/3gg2ctrdboh2dn6moa2qj/2024-07-02-MIDI-Remote-M-32-DA.jpg?rlkey=q1xqhdpte5eubd1trna408bte&dl=1

4. You can either connect only one device to a MADI bus or chain devices. Every device in the chain adds a very little latency of only 3 samples at single speed and 6 samples at double speed.

Room EQ

I would choose a MADI capable recording interface supporting Room EQ.

Pleaset this information:
https://rme-audio.de/totalmix-fx-room-eq.html
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=39428
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=38691

What type of I/O ports do you require?
Do you want / require TotalMix FX (the FX effects in the unit)?

Latest Converter

Another option for you would have been to use the units with the latest converter technology in one rack unit.
So to speak either M-32 Pro II DA with 32 channels (and DB-25 plugs) or - if 16 channels were sufficient -
one or even two of the new M-1620 Pro.
https://rme-audio.de/de_m-32-pro-2.html
https://rme-audio.de/de_m-1620-pro.html

The latest converter which RME currently uses in the later products might add to the definition of the sound. At least, they have an excellent reputation and are fantastic for products like reference converters ADI-2 DAC/Pro (also ADI-2/4 Pro SE). Furthermore, the flagship interfaces like UFX III got the AKM converters, which were in the ADI-2 Pro FS reference converter.
Another advantage of the M-1620 Pro might be for you to get two additional headphones outputs for your setup.

The newer products are also capable of AVB, you can also order optional with additional Dante support.
But good old MADI could still be your preference as you have then a dedicated transport medium for audio
and frequent changes of sample rates when mastering different material of different sample rates is easier with MADI.
As far as I heard changing sample rates with AVB and Dante needs reconfiguration of all devices in the setup, they to not easily follow the master clock automatically.

M-32 DA for your current setup

Advantage: you can re-use TRS cabling the newer products have DB-24 plugs and breakout consoles are also a cost factor.
Disadvantage: if you should need different reference levels per port, then I think this is not possible with the older units, please check the manual. The later M32-Pro and M-1620 products have reference levels per port.

EDIT: one remark, as I stumbled over this thread today
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 32#p220832
If quad speed is applicable for you then you can only use 16 of 32 ports, as you can only use MADI optical or BNC, not both like with the newer devices.

MADIface XT ..

As you mentioned it. The MADIface XT is a remarkable unit, but the 2nd E-PCIe adapter is not in use anymore, difficult to find adapter cards, maybe too exotic. So it would boil down to the fact that you would have a USB3 interface.
The two Mic inputs are surely fine but can be not be used as Instrument input if this is a feature that you want.
It might be also good to know, that only the UFX III has similar/same Mic preamps like the 12Mic with 75 dB gain range.

HDSPe MADI FX

The HDSPe MADI FX could be a better option. Depending on which feature set, type of I/O you need.
The only PCIe card offering an FX chip on the unit and with an CPU resource optimizing driver.
More information in my blog article:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … Pro-FS-BE/
and the PDF with the full review therein: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … -v1-1-pdf/

UFX III

If one MADI bus is enough for you, and you need a bit of "this and that", 4 Mic/line/Inst inputs, 8x AD/DA, 2x ADAT (both switchable to optical SPDIF), 1x AES ... AUTOSET for the Mic Preamps … Then the UFX III is a very flexible unit.
You can use DURec for stand-alone recordings or for backup recordings if you are doing that.

I am also using this unit, see my blog here: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … iii-en-de/

Room EQ

Regarding the recording interfaces you need to take a closer look, which one support Room EQ.
For some there were restrictions that older versions of product can't use it (no resources free in FPGA).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14