• Registered: 2017-01-23
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Topic: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

I am not sure whether this has been done before, but I am hoping to setup amplified system for live band performance for a dance venue, record each instrument for further mixing and mastering, and also doing a Binaural recording of the event all at the same time.

In more detail, I hope to add FIR filtering (or equivalent) to linearize phase of microphones in each channel in the process.  If at all possible, I am hoping to see if it is possible to adjust amplitude and delay for each mic location so that there may be a more clear sound image separation presentation of each instrument to the dancers on floor.

So I am trying to get some ideas as to what may be needed to do this using a MacBook Pro to run TotalMix FX.

  • Registered: 2017-01-23
  • Posts: 42

Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

So it seems to me there are a few things I need to find out:
1. How do I route hardware inputs to a DAW?
2. Can the DAW perform the filtering, delay of each mic to a stereo output and reroute back into TotalMix, and record all the tracks to files at the same time?
3. Since after handling by the DAW, the software inputs to TotalMix will be increased? Or can the DAW mix into stereo the route to main output of TotalMix?

  • mkok
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

The hardware inputs will show up in the DAW. You don’t need to route them.
I only use Cubase which can add delay on a per channel basis and record at the same time. It does however mean running through the DAW engine which will add latency. I’m not sure that would be the best way to time align. Others probably know more about this. I only use my DAW as a recording studio.
The software inputs will not increase. So for my Babyface pro fs I have 12 software channels. That doesn’t change. A DAW can send out to whichever software inputs you want and you can route in TotalMix to hardware outputs of your choice. The ins and outs do not increase or decrease (except if you change the sample rate and are using an adat expander)

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.
  • Registered: 2017-01-23
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

mkok wrote:

The hardware inputs will show up in the DAW. You don’t need to route them.
I only use Cubase which can add delay on a per channel basis and record at the same time. It does however mean running through the DAW engine which will add latency. I’m not sure that would be the best way to time align. Others probably know more about this. I only use my DAW as a recording studio.
The software inputs will not increase. So for my Babyface pro fs I have 12 software channels. That doesn’t change. A DAW can send out to whichever software inputs you want and you can route in TotalMix to hardware outputs of your choice. The ins and outs do not increase or decrease (except if you change the sample rate and are using an adat expander)

Regarding latency, I would probably play around with FIR filters later since they can add delay.
Regarding adding delay, the idea is to rout each single channel to both left and right adding a slight pan and slight timing delay to present a sound image to one side.  Also additional delay added for the back row of the band.  In this case I would have to mix the inputs into two channels before I send it back to TotalMix.

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

mkok wrote:

... It does however mean running through the DAW engine which will add latency.

@george.soong, THIS is a very important and helpful hint!
Even with a fast and stable system (computer / OS / DAW / audio interface) with short latency times I wouldn't recommend to use a DAW for a live performance. At least not for a case like yours. In my opinion, what you have in mind would need a digital live mixing desk with enough channels / mic inputs.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

6 Reply by waedi (edited by waedi 2024-05-22 08:34:07)

  • waedi
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

You can split the software playback channels in Totalmix into mono channels and send back every mono signal into Totalmix and do the mix there if you like. Otherwise do the whole mix in the DAW and send one stereo mix back into Totalmix for the show.
The recording of all signals can run in the background in the DAW.
Another thing I want to mention, your idea with the delays I would cancel out.
If someone listening with eyes closed trying to imagine the scenario with the musicians, then yes, it would make sense.
But for listeners who are watching the show, they can see the musicians and this visual reference is much more powerfull to have an image of the show. The delays in the sound would not be recognized and those are minimal anyway.
The risk of a hanging DAW is also very big, I would do the whole show with Totalmix and use a DAW in the background only for recording, or use DURec if the interface has.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
  • Registered: 2016-06-14
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

waedi wrote:

Another thing I want to mention, your idea with the delays I would cancel out.
If someone listening with eyes closed trying to imagine the scenario with the musicians, then yes, it would make sense.
But for listeners who are watching the show, they can see the musicians and this visual reference is much more powerfull to have an image of the show. The delays in the sound would not be recognized and those are minimal anyway.
The risk of a hanging DAW is also very big, I would do the whole show with Totalmix and use a DAW in the background only for recording, or use DURec if the interface has.

It’s exactly my opinion too. The more in this case the people are dancing and moving, probably in a large venue with its given acoustic. I don’t think someone would notice the delays…
Designed delay I only know from shows with a static public area and multiple rows of pa speakers.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2
  • Registered: 2017-01-23
  • Posts: 42

Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

Just had a new idea.  Since the singer has wireless in-ear monitor, I am thinking about giving a wireless mic to let him walk onto the dance floor and sing if he wishes, but I would like for the sound to be able to pinpoint his location in the crowd.  Currently there will be four speakers, is there a way to actively pan his mic input to allow people to hear where he is?

  • waedi
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

george.soong wrote:

Just had a new idea.  Since the singer has wireless in-ear monitor, I am thinking about giving a wireless mic to let him walk onto the dance floor and sing if he wishes, but I would like for the sound to be able to pinpoint his location in the crowd.  Currently there will be four speakers, is there a way to actively pan his mic input to allow people to hear where he is?

Only people who are in the centre of those four speakers will get a position-idea by listening, for the rest of the crowd it will sound odd.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
  • Registered: 2017-01-23
  • Posts: 42

Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

I have been playing around with TotalMix Remote, I was expecting to see the setting on the computer reflect to my iPad, but it is not happening.  The level meters respond to the iPad.  I am wondering whether there may be version compatibility issues I need to be aware of?

  • Registered: 2017-01-23
  • Posts: 42

Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

george.soong wrote:

I have been playing around with TotalMix Remote, I was expecting to see the setting on the computer reflect to my iPad, but it is not happening.  The level meters respond to the iPad.  I am wondering whether there may be version compatibility issues I need to be aware of?

Discovered that my digital links were not connected.  But why would the channels still show up if they are not connected?  Is there a setting to show up only the channels that are connected?

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

george.soong wrote:

Discovered that my digital links were not connected.  But why would the channels still show up if they are not connected?  Is there a setting to show up only the channels that are connected?

Of course there is no such setting. How should this work? The interface hardware is what it is. Beside that all available channels also can be used for the internal loopback function or such.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2
  • Registered: 2017-01-23
  • Posts: 42

Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

oli77sch wrote:
george.soong wrote:

Discovered that my digital links were not connected.  But why would the channels still show up if they are not connected?  Is there a setting to show up only the channels that are connected?

Of course there is no such setting. How should this work? The interface hardware is what it is. Beside that all available channels also can be used for the internal loopback function or such.

I was curious because one might connect any different devices to the babyface pro I am using, if I do not connect external devices to it, why would it not just show the usable channels?  The fact that the additional hardware channels show up in TotalMix even though they are not connected is actually confusing.

14 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

Use Channel Layout to hide your 'unconnected' ones.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

george.soong wrote:

I was curious because one might connect any different devices to the babyface pro I am using, if I do not connect external devices to it, why would it not just show the usable channels?  The fact that the additional hardware channels show up in TotalMix even though they are not connected is actually confusing.

I understand what you mean. But then one could argue to have this feature even also for the analog inputs and outputs too. Now imagine how the Totalmix window would look when you set up the interface for the first time, without any connected gear - empty. That would be very weird and also confusing for inexperienced users.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2
  • Registered: 2017-01-23
  • Posts: 42

Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

oli77sch wrote:
george.soong wrote:

I was curious because one might connect any different devices to the babyface pro I am using, if I do not connect external devices to it, why would it not just show the usable channels?  The fact that the additional hardware channels show up in TotalMix even though they are not connected is actually confusing.

I understand what you mean. But then one could argue to have this feature even also for the analog inputs and outputs too. Now imagine how the Totalmix window would look when you set up the interface for the first time, without any connected gear - empty. That would be very weird and also confusing for inexperienced users.

I have never tried without anything connected, Since TotalMix only pops up when I plug in the Babyface Pro, I assume you have to have at least one RME device connected to make TotalMix work, is this correct?  Does TotalMix work without any RME device?

  • Registered: 2017-01-23
  • Posts: 42

Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

MC wrote:

Use Channel Layout to hide your 'unconnected' ones.

The problem is non existent channels show up from other configurations.  I am expecting only the connected hardware to show up.  Of course, if I do not use some, I can hide them.  For example, in my case ADATA interface device was not connected, the 8 channels should not even show up if I do not have the optical connection to the Babyface pro.

  • waedi
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

george.soong wrote:
MC wrote:

Use Channel Layout to hide your 'unconnected' ones.

The problem is non existent channels show up from other configurations.  I am expecting only the connected hardware to show up.  Of course, if I do not use some, I can hide them.  For example, in my case ADATA interface device was not connected, the 8 channels should not even show up if I do not have the optical connection to the Babyface pro.

Complete wrong expection, this would be described in the user manual, but there is no word in this direction.
The Adat outputs is working all the time regardless of any connected device, the output is a one-way transmitter it can't receive informations about anything.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
  • Registered: 2016-06-14
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

… and 99% of all users would probably expect malfunction when not all channels are showing up…

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2
  • Registered: 2017-01-23
  • Posts: 42

Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

waedi wrote:
george.soong wrote:
MC wrote:

Use Channel Layout to hide your 'unconnected' ones.

The problem is non existent channels show up from other configurations.  I am expecting only the connected hardware to show up.  Of course, if I do not use some, I can hide them.  For example, in my case ADATA interface device was not connected, the 8 channels should not even show up if I do not have the optical connection to the Babyface pro.

Complete wrong expection, this would be described in the user manual, but there is no word in this direction.
The Adat outputs is working all the time regardless of any connected device, the output is a one-way transmitter it can't receive informations about anything.

Let me be more specific to avoid confusions.  In my case, a previous session had a Behringer ADA8000 optically connected to the Babyface pro, in this case, all the ADAT channels would show up in TotalMix;  however, the optical connections were later disconnected and the computer restarted, in such case I would expect to only see the Babyface pro io but not the ADAT io on the ADA8000.  Why would this be a wrong expectation?

  • Registered: 2017-01-23
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

oli77sch wrote:

… and 99% of all users would probably expect malfunction when not all channels are showing up…

Well more channels than those actually are available showing up is a problem.

  • ramses
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

george.soong wrote:
MC wrote:

Use Channel Layout to hide your 'unconnected' ones.

The problem is non existent channels show up from other configurations.  I am expecting only the connected hardware to show up.  Of course, if I do not use some, I can hide them.  For example, in my case ADATA interface device was not connected, the 8 channels should not even show up if I do not have the optical connection to the Babyface pro.

Sorry, but this makes no sense at all. The "sane" default is, to see all channels and if you do not like it, then hide them.

Compare it with the old days with analog gear. Does something vanish, only because there is no cable connected to it?
This is the expectation... Because the digital world has its roots from the analog world.

You might want to see the channel status because in most cases you have no direct view to the I/O ports and want / need to see, whether there are signals. Or you want to preconfigure a routing or check the routing of a snapshot.

Guess the confusion of people: "where are my ADAT ports", "my interface seems damaged, no ADAT ports" ....
Many completely unnecessary support calls and postings in the forum, that nobody needs.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • waedi
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

Because you did not see the I/O of the ADA8200, what you did see was the Adat channels of the Babyface in Totalmix, 8 Adat channels who always are visible next to the other channels available.
The computer did never show you the name ADA8200.
Every RME audio interface shows its Adat channels in Totalmix all the time. Regardless what is connected. Unless you customize the Totalmix layout by hiding channels.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
  • vinark
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

george.soong wrote:
waedi wrote:
george.soong wrote:

The problem is non existent channels show up from other configurations.  I am expecting only the connected hardware to show up.  Of course, if I do not use some, I can hide them.  For example, in my case ADATA interface device was not connected, the 8 channels should not even show up if I do not have the optical connection to the Babyface pro.

Complete wrong expection, this would be described in the user manual, but there is no word in this direction.
The Adat outputs is working all the time regardless of any connected device, the output is a one-way transmitter it can't receive informations about anything.

Let me be more specific to avoid confusions.  In my case, a previous session had a Behringer ADA8000 optically connected to the Babyface pro, in this case, all the ADAT channels would show up in TotalMix;  however, the optical connections were later disconnected and the computer restarted, in such case I would expect to only see the Babyface pro io but not the ADAT io on the ADA8000.  Why would this be a wrong expectation?

Because it is not possible, Adat is not a data protocol but an audio stream. It can not send nor receive any info  about connections.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • ramses
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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

FYI .. All ports of a recording interface are constantly being transferred between recording interface and computer,
no matter whether in use or not and no matter whether there is something connected to a digital port or not.
This is the usual case for every vendor.
RME has only a few exceptions which are not applicable for your case.
1. for some firewire based products it was possible to deactivate the transfer of digital ports in the driver.
2. special driver for HDSPe MADI FX, resource optimizing driver because of the high number of channels (>380).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

26 Reply by MC

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Re: Interfacing with TotalMix FX

george.soong wrote:

Let me be more specific to avoid confusions.  In my case, a previous session had a Behringer ADA8000 optically connected to the Babyface pro, in this case, all the ADAT channels would show up in TotalMix;  however, the optical connections were later disconnected and the computer restarted, in such case I would expect to only see the Babyface pro io but not the ADAT io on the ADA8000.  Why would this be a wrong expectation?

Because this is hardware! And the hardware I/Os exist, no matter if something is connected or not. In your case it is easy to see. though - with nothing connected you get No Lock in the input status of the Settings dialog, and UFL for the input meters in TM FX.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website