Topic: Please Help Me Improve My System

Hi everyone,

This is David. Hope you are having a great day.

I need some help with my current laptop PC, running Windows 11. I've noticed that on Babyface Pro FS, buffer size 128, everything plays well. Recently I went to a piano store to try out the hybrid grand pianos of Yamaha and their audio interface feature. With the Yamaha Steinburg driver, I can get 64 buffer size without pops and drop outs. I wonder if I can further improve my system using the Babyface Pro FS? IfI used to be able to run 64 buffer size without problems, but now I at least need a buffer size of 96 for live piano playing.

I use my PC laptop to play piano sample libraries, teach and make videos using an external USB webcam, and listening to music. My main piano library platforms are UVI WorkStation, Ivory engine, and Garritan CFX. My daw is Reaper.

Starting on post 2 I'll post system specs and LatencyMon data. Any thoughts are very much appreciated.

Thank you!

David

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Test 1:
CONCLUSION
Your system appears to be suitable for handling real-time audio and other tasks without dropouts.
LatencyMon has been analyzing your system for 0:23:53 (h:mm:ss) on all processors.
SYSTEM INFORMATION
Computer name: DAVID-DELL
OS version: Windows 11, 10.0, version 2009, build: 22631 (x64)
Hardware: Precision 3560, Dell Inc.
BIOS: 1.36.0
CPU: GenuineIntel 11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-1185G7 @ 3.00GHz
Logical processors: 8
Processor groups: 1
Processor group size: 8
RAM: 32490 MB total
CPU SPEED
Reported CPU speed (WMI): 1805 MHz
Reported CPU speed (registry): 1805 MHz
Note: reported execution times may be calculated based on a fixed reported CPU speed. Disable variable speed settings like Intel Speed Step and AMD Cool N Quiet in the BIOS setup for more accurate results.
MEASURED INTERRUPT TO USER PROCESS LATENCIES
The interrupt to process latency reflects the measured interval that a usermode process needed to respond to a hardware request from the moment the interrupt service routine started execution. This includes the scheduling and execution of a DPC routine, the signaling of an event and the waking up of a usermode thread from an idle wait state in response to that event.
Highest measured interrupt to process latency (µs): 396.40
Average measured interrupt to process latency (µs): 9.588592
Highest measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 297.70
Average measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 4.754752
REPORTED ISRs
Interrupt service routines are routines installed by the OS and device drivers that execute in response to a hardware interrupt signal.
Highest ISR routine execution time (µs): 277.40
Driver with highest ISR routine execution time: ACPI.sys - ACPI Driver for NT, Microsoft Corporation
Highest reported total ISR routine time (%): 0.008653
Driver with highest ISR total time: ACPI.sys - ACPI Driver for NT, Microsoft Corporation
Total time spent in ISRs (%) 0.011305
ISR count (execution time <250 µs): 226793
ISR count (execution time 250-500 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 500-1000 µs): 3
ISR count (execution time 1000-2000 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 2000-4000 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time >=4000 µs): 0
REPORTED DPCs
DPC routines are part of the interrupt servicing dispatch mechanism and disable the possibility for a process to utilize the CPU while it is interrupted until the DPC has finished execution.
Highest DPC routine execution time (µs): 730.435457
Driver with highest DPC routine execution time: ACPI.sys - ACPI Driver for NT, Microsoft Corporation
Highest reported total DPC routine time (%): 0.012264
Driver with highest DPC total execution time: ACPI.sys - ACPI Driver for NT, Microsoft Corporation
Total time spent in DPCs (%) 0.051696
DPC count (execution time <250 µs): 809968
DPC count (execution time 250-500 µs): 0
DPC count (execution time 500-10000 µs): 4561
DPC count (execution time 1000-2000 µs): 0
DPC count (execution time 2000-4000 µs): 0
DPC count (execution time >=4000 µs): 0
REPORTED HARD PAGEFAULTS
Hard pagefaults are events that get triggered by making use of virtual memory that is not resident in RAM but backed by a memory mapped file on disk. The process of resolving the hard pagefault requires reading in the memory from disk while the process is interrupted and blocked from execution.
NOTE: some processes were hit by hard pagefaults. If these were programs producing audio, they are likely to interrupt the audio stream resulting in dropouts, clicks and pops. Check the Processes tab to see which programs were hit.
Process with highest pagefault count: msmpeng.exe
Total number of hard pagefaults 332
Hard pagefault count of hardest hit process: 316
Number of processes hit: 7

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Test 2: After changing the driver for the ACPI, I ran another test, and this time my laptop seems to be suffering. Maybe it's time for me to get a new one? I hope not… Here are the results.
CONCLUSION
Your system seems to be having difficulty handling real-time audio and other tasks. You may experience drop outs, clicks or pops due to buffer underruns. One or more DPC routines that belong to a driver running in your system appear to be executing for too long. One problem may be related to power management, disable CPU throttling settings in Control Panel and BIOS setup. Check for BIOS updates.
LatencyMon has been analyzing your system for 0:05:37 (h:mm:ss) on all processors.
SYSTEM INFORMATION
Computer name: DAVID-DELL
OS version: Windows 11, 10.0, version 2009, build: 22631 (x64)
Hardware: Precision 3560, Dell Inc.
BIOS: 1.36.0
CPU: GenuineIntel 11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-1185G7 @ 3.00GHz
Logical processors: 8
Processor groups: 1
Processor group size: 8
RAM: 32490 MB total
CPU SPEED
Reported CPU speed (WMI): 1805 MHz
Reported CPU speed (registry): 1805 MHz
Note: reported execution times may be calculated based on a fixed reported CPU speed. Disable variable speed settings like Intel Speed Step and AMD Cool N Quiet in the BIOS setup for more accurate results.
MEASURED INTERRUPT TO USER PROCESS LATENCIES
The interrupt to process latency reflects the measured interval that a usermode process needed to respond to a hardware request from the moment the interrupt service routine started execution. This includes the scheduling and execution of a DPC routine, the signaling of an event and the waking up of a usermode thread from an idle wait state in response to that event.
Highest measured interrupt to process latency (µs): 1601.60
Average measured interrupt to process latency (µs): 11.334568
Highest measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 1592.50
Average measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 6.339694
REPORTED ISRs
Interrupt service routines are routines installed by the OS and device drivers that execute in response to a hardware interrupt signal.
Highest ISR routine execution time (µs): 390.657618
Driver with highest ISR routine execution time: Wdf01000.sys - Kernel Mode Driver Framework Runtime, Microsoft Corporation
Highest reported total ISR routine time (%): 0.015088
Driver with highest ISR total time: Wdf01000.sys - Kernel Mode Driver Framework Runtime, Microsoft Corporation
Total time spent in ISRs (%) 0.027234
ISR count (execution time <250 µs): 169044
ISR count (execution time 250-500 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 500-1000 µs): 3
ISR count (execution time 1000-2000 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 2000-4000 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time >=4000 µs): 0
REPORTED DPCs
DPC routines are part of the interrupt servicing dispatch mechanism and disable the possibility for a process to utilize the CPU while it is interrupted until the DPC has finished execution.
Highest DPC routine execution time (µs): 1833.103047
Driver with highest DPC routine execution time: Wdf01000.sys - Kernel Mode Driver Framework Runtime, Microsoft Corporation
Highest reported total DPC routine time (%): 0.080254
Driver with highest DPC total execution time: Wdf01000.sys - Kernel Mode Driver Framework Runtime, Microsoft Corporation
Total time spent in DPCs (%) 0.148240
DPC count (execution time <250 µs): 419410
DPC count (execution time 250-500 µs): 0
DPC count (execution time 500-10000 µs): 1325
DPC count (execution time 1000-2000 µs): 2
DPC count (execution time 2000-4000 µs): 0
DPC count (execution time >=4000 µs): 0
REPORTED HARD PAGEFAULTS
Hard pagefaults are events that get triggered by making use of virtual memory that is not resident in RAM but backed by a memory mapped file on disk. The process of resolving the hard pagefault requires reading in the memory from disk while the process is interrupted and blocked from execution.
NOTE: some processes were hit by hard pagefaults. If these were programs producing audio, they are likely to interrupt the audio stream resulting in dropouts, clicks and pops. Check the Processes tab to see which programs were hit.
Process with highest pagefault count: msmpeng.exe
Total number of hard pagefaults 2210
Hard pagefault count of hardest hit process: 1323
Number of processes hit: 23

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Interlude: After some further investigation of data I may not understand, I draw the following conclusion:
DPC latency on my end is good, but not best. The main drivers causing DPC latency and ISR problems are the ACPI driver and the Windows kernel driver. These 2 drivers alternate themselves when reporting problems. Over all latency can go upwards of the 270s.
Hard page faults are my downfall. Sometimes as many as 43 processes could experience them, and hard page faults can go upwards of the 9000s or as low as the 2000s. Sometimes, among the processes, Reaper would be listed.
So, the more serious concern is unfortunately hard page faults. After disabling page files on both drive partitions, I tested again, and key data will be on the next post.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

test 3: done after turning on the laptop for about half an hour.
CONCLUSION
Your system appears to be suitable for handling real-time audio and other tasks without dropouts.
Highest measured interrupt to process latency (µs): 363.10
Average measured interrupt to process latency (µs): 9.142513
Highest measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 278.90
Average measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 4.463541
Highest ISR routine execution time (µs): 229.834349
Driver with highest ISR routine execution time: ACPI.sys - ACPI Driver for NT, Microsoft Corporation
Highest reported total ISR routine time (%): 0.009546
Driver with highest ISR total time: ACPI.sys - ACPI Driver for NT, Microsoft Corporation
Total time spent in ISRs (%) 0.013328
ISR count (execution time <250 µs): 115909
ISR count (execution time 250-500 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 500-1000 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 1000-2000 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 2000-4000 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time >=4000 µs): 0
Highest DPC routine execution time (µs): 485.551247
Driver with highest DPC routine execution time: ACPI.sys - ACPI Driver for NT, Microsoft Corporation
Highest reported total DPC routine time (%): 0.016535
Driver with highest DPC total execution time: Wdf01000.sys - Kernel Mode Driver Framework Runtime, Microsoft Corporation
Total time spent in DPCs (%) 0.059644
DPC count (execution time <250 µs): 352893
DPC count (execution time 250-500 µs): 0
DPC count (execution time 500-10000 µs): 1936
DPC count (execution time 1000-2000 µs): 0
DPC count (execution time 2000-4000 µs): 0
DPC count (execution time >=4000 µs): 0
Process with highest pagefault count: msmpeng.exe
Total number of hard pagefaults 219
Hard pagefault count of hardest hit process: 154
Number of processes hit: 10 (Reaper isn't on this list).

End of my test results collection. If there's anything I can do further to improve latency in live music playback, please let me know.

Thank you!

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Your notebook is not the fastest....

IMHO, what makes problems is Windows Defender - msmpeng.exe.

Also closing web browser (so that it is really closed not only on background) and all unnecessary programs helps a great deal.

And some videoconferencing programs may be better, some worse...

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

The buffer size is not what the actual latency is. I get lower latency (in ms) with my Babyface pro fs at 128 than I got with my previous interface at less than 64. What is your actual latency?

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Kubrak wrote:

Your notebook is not the fastest....

IMHO, what makes problems is Windows Defender - msmpeng.exe.

Also closing web browser (so that it is really closed not only on background) and all unnecessary programs helps a great deal.

And some videoconferencing programs may be better, some worse...

I thought I already have my web browsers closed and I don't hear an icon on the task bar. I wonder if there are pages running in the background? At least I've never seen them on the task bar. Also, I do feel Windows Defender can be a problem, but I don't know how to really turn it off. It looks like I can't turn it off.

I do have to use Zoom from time to time to teach lessons, so I can't really 100% not use a video conferencing software.

Usually when I play the piano, I have everything closed. The only things left open are my screen reader and the daw.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

mkok wrote:

The buffer size is not what the actual latency is. I get lower latency (in ms) with my Babyface pro fs at 128 than I got with my previous interface at less than 64. What is your actual latency?

That I really don't know. How can I get this information?

All I know is that the Yamaha driver can go down to 64 with no click and pops, even when I have Ravenscorft 275 or Modern U load up 2 microphones at once, playing live. These piano libraries can be really hard on CPU when pressing down the sustain pedal, as they use samples to trigger resonances.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Concerning web browser. It may differ one from another, but some of them have setting telling them that they should really totally close if one closes them. Default is that they just mimick that they are closed, but are not.

And what about disc? Do you have old one HDD or SSD?

And do you feel that current latency of BF is too much for you, or you just want to get the same buffer as Yamaha?

11 (edited by davidlaijiajun 2024-08-20 16:02:31)

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Kubrak wrote:

Concerning web browser. It may differ one from another, but some of them have setting telling them that they should really totally close if one closes them. Default is that they just mimick that they are closed, but are not.

And what about disc? Do you have old one HDD or SSD?

And do you feel that current latency of BF is too much for you, or you just want to get the same buffer as Yamaha?


I have Google Chrome and Microsoft edge, both chrome based browsers on my laptop. I have only one slot for an SSD.

It used to be that I could do 64 buffer size with my BF Pro FS and work very seamlessly with everything. But now, the best I can get glitch free is 96. So yes, I hope to get the same buffer as the Yamaha if possible.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

OK. In Google Chrome the setting is in Settings/System. You should set it so that you will not allow run Google on background if you switch it off.

MS Edge I do not know, but I guess it will be similar.

What does it mean that you have one slot for SSD? Do you have libraries on external SSD?

And one more thing. Not all USB ports on notebook are the same. Certain may work better, certain worse.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Kubrak wrote:

OK. In Google Chrome the setting is in Settings/System. You should set it so that you will not allow run Google on background if you switch it off.

MS Edge I do not know, but I guess it will be similar.

What does it mean that you have one slot for SSD? Do you have libraries on external SSD?

And one more thing. Not all USB ports on notebook are the same. Certain may work better, certain worse.

Thank you, I’ll check it out tomorrow when I turn on my computer.

What I meant was that my computer only has one slot for a hard drive and I have a solid-state drive in it. My computer is used both for music and other things. It’s a Dell precision 3560, if this helps. Thank you!

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

The software usually shows the latency. So I use Cubase which shows me the in and out latency. As I said it’s not the buffer size but the latency. Can you hear a difference?

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

15 (edited by ramses 2024-08-20 18:13:46)

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

mkok wrote:

The software usually shows the latency. So I use Cubase which shows me the in and out latency. As I said it’s not the buffer size but the latency. Can you hear a difference?

I am not sure whether you know it.

Cubase shows the values which are compiled in into the driver with values measured by RME.
Unlike some other manufactures, the values in the RME drivers are usually correct.

If you want to measure the latency on your own, then you need to plug a loop and measure with RTL Utility.
https://oblique-audio.com/rtl-utility.php

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Maybe there’s something I’m missing, but all I know is the buffer size number differences and the differences in performance under these different buffer sizes. I wonder what I was missing regarding latency? Thanks!

17 (edited by ramses 2024-08-20 20:42:44)

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

I try to explain, sorry a little long, but well … to really understand it, you need to know a few things.

The ASIO driver has latency values compiled in so that the DAW can perform latency compensation. This applies only to the directly attached analog ports, as the converter latency is known only for these ports.

You often hear the term RTL (round trip latency). This refers to the time required for A/D conversion, transport over USB (to the PC and back), and D/A conversion. The typical use case for this latency is when recording from a microphone and monitoring in the DAW through speakers. There is also a term called direct monitoring, where the recorded signal is sent directly to the output on the recording interface without being processed by the DAW.

The higher the sample rate, the lower the converter latency. However, this latency decrease is minimal and not worth it unless you truly need it. The significant disadvantage of higher sample rates is that they increase the amount of audio data to be processed, thus increasing system load.

The more channels a recording interface has, the more data needs to be transported over USB. All channels are transferred over USB, regardless of whether you are using them (with a few exceptions to this rule).

The ASIO buffer size has the most significant impact on RTL. The smaller the ASIO buffer size, the smaller the RTL, but the greater the risk of processing audio too slowly, leading to audio loss.

The audible latency (e.g., RTL) during monitoring is constant and depends solely on the sample rate and ASIO buffer size. No matter how powerful your system is, you will always get the same RTL. If your system is not powerful enough, the RTL remains the same, but you may experience audio loss because the audio could not be processed in time.

You may now ask yourself what a powerful system for a DAW load is, allowing you to run low ASIO buffer sizes without experiencing audio drops.

The truth is, everything has its limits—there is no system that can do it all.

What’s essential for a DAW system is that the CPU cores can work at full power and that you have drivers that do not block CPU cores for too long. The critical point here is that low-level routines (drivers) run with the highest priority on your system, and they are not under the control of the operating system’s process scheduler.

The process scheduler assigns processes and threads to different CPU cores in the hope that the CPU will start processing them as soon as possible.

To ensure data integrity, low-level routines (drivers) need to be processed even sooner. Therefore, they have the highest priority over user and system processes. A very important detail is that these routines run as long as they need to until they detach themselves from a CPU core. The duration that a driver runs on the CPU core is hard-coded in the driver based on "programming conventions." Some drivers are poorly coded and stay on a CPU core for too long, blocking the CPU from starting work on other processes that were scheduled by the process scheduler.

This latency inside the computer is called DPC Latency. It is not an audible latency, but it determines whether a system can work efficiently on all processes and threads.

The better the drivers, the lower the DPC latency, and the more headroom you have to configure smaller ASIO buffer sizes.
Then the system is agile enough to process audio in time, no matter which core the audio-related processes are scheduled to run on.

A performant system is one with many cores, but also with powerful cores. Often, it is also beneficial if they have high single-thread performance. Single-thread performance is important because some DAW-related tasks are processed on only one CPU core and cannot be split across multiple cores. These tasks also need to be processed in time.

As you can see, it is a complex ecosystem that needs to be balanced. Even the fastest system can result in poor DAW performance if the drivers are bad and if you have high DPC latency. Such issues do not show up in benchmarks, as benchmarks typically use all CPU cores, and it doesn't matter when the results arrive.

The big difference with DAW/audio processing is that it has real-time processing requirements. It is crucial that all audio-related jobs are processed on time because "too late" is simply too late, leading to audio drops.

A good strategy is to set up the PC properly. Avoid unnecessary tools that can block CPUs for too long. I have had bad experiences with tools from the motherboard vendor for automatic tasks like fan control, BIOS, and driver updates. They are often so poorly coded that they can significantly impact performance.

When setting up a new computer, I perform frequent LatencyMon measurements to monitor DPC latency. Again, this is not audible latency and has nothing to do with audio itself. It is the processing latency when jobs are being executed.

My first measurement is on a freshly installed system. I then try to achieve the best/lowest DPC values by fine-tuning the BIOS. All you need to do in the BIOS is disable energy-saving features. This is easier on a desktop system than on a laptop. On a laptop, energy-saving features are typically necessary to prevent overheating, and if the CPU gets too hot, its clock speed may need to be throttled, reducing overall performance.

Once the BIOS settings are optimized, I start installing only the necessary drivers. After each driver installation, I perform LatencyMon measurements again to check for problematic drivers. Finally, I install the applications, continuing to monitor DPC latency throughout the process.

On Windows, you should also select an energy profile that disables energy-saving features as much as possible. On a desktop system, you can use the hidden "Ultimate Performance" power profile. On a laptop, your options may be more limited; some systems do not even allow you to choose "High Performance," leaving you with only the "Balanced" mode.

Another helpful approach is to optimize the Windows process scheduler for background tasks. According to my research, this means that each job runs similarly to how it does on Windows Server systems, with a fixed and slightly longer time quantum. This allows the CPU to work more efficiently on a single task for a longer period, reducing the number of context switches. See my blog article:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … es-or-not/

This is the process of gaining experience with your system, learning how computers work, and understanding the importance of having an agile system with low DPC latencies.

If the setup is nicely optimized and your DPC latencies are "ok" but you still cannot set ASIO buffers as low as you need or like, then it can be the case, that your CPU is not fast enough. Or it has not enough cores or is missing single thread performance. It can also be that the DAW project is not set up well.
Too many inserts on a track need higher single thread performance because audio needs to be sent through all inserts / VSTs and all this needs to be computed in time.

The more control you have over these factors, the lower the typical ASIO buffer sizes you can use in your DAW projects.

On average, you can work with lower ASIO buffer sizes on an agile computer with low DPC latencies.

But again, we are only talking about processing audio in time and avoiding audio drops.

The RTL depends solely on the chosen ASIO buffer size. The key point is how low the ASIO buffer size can be, based on your system’s performance (CPU, etc.) and low DPC latencies.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

ramses wrote:

I try to explain, sorry a little long, but well … to really understand it, you need to know a few things.

The ASIO driver has latency values compiled in so that the DAW can perform latency compensation. This applies only to the directly attached analog ports, as the converter latency is known only for these ports.

You often hear the term RTL (round trip latency). This refers to the time required for A/D conversion, transport over USB (to the PC and back), and D/A conversion. The typical use case for this latency is when recording from a microphone and monitoring in the DAW through speakers. There is also a term called direct monitoring, where the recorded signal is sent directly to the output on the recording interface without being processed by the DAW.

The higher the sample rate, the lower the converter latency. However, this latency decrease is minimal and not worth it unless you truly need it. The significant disadvantage of higher sample rates is that they increase the amount of audio data to be processed, thus increasing system load.

The more channels a recording interface has, the more data needs to be transported over USB. All channels are transferred over USB, regardless of whether you are using them (with a few exceptions to this rule).

The ASIO buffer size has the most significant impact on RTL. The smaller the ASIO buffer size, the smaller the RTL, but the greater the risk of processing audio too slowly, leading to audio loss.

The audible latency (e.g., RTL) during monitoring is constant and depends solely on the sample rate and ASIO buffer size. No matter how powerful your system is, you will always get the same RTL. If your system is not powerful enough, the RTL remains the same, but you may experience audio loss because the audio could not be processed in time.

You may now ask yourself what a powerful system for a DAW load is, allowing you to run low ASIO buffer sizes without experiencing audio drops.

The truth is, everything has its limits—there is no system that can do it all.

What’s essential for a DAW system is that the CPU cores can work at full power and that you have drivers that do not block CPU cores for too long. The critical point here is that low-level routines (drivers) run with the highest priority on your system, and they are not under the control of the operating system’s process scheduler.

The process scheduler assigns processes and threads to different CPU cores in the hope that the CPU will start processing them as soon as possible.

To ensure data integrity, low-level routines (drivers) need to be processed even sooner. Therefore, they have the highest priority over user and system processes. A very important detail is that these routines run as long as they need to until they detach themselves from a CPU core. The duration that a driver runs on the CPU core is hard-coded in the driver based on "programming conventions." Some drivers are poorly coded and stay on a CPU core for too long, blocking the CPU from starting work on other processes that were scheduled by the process scheduler.

This latency inside the computer is called DPC Latency. It is not an audible latency, but it determines whether a system can work efficiently on all processes and threads.

The better the drivers, the lower the DPC latency, and the more headroom you have to configure smaller ASIO buffer sizes.
Then the system is agile enough to process audio in time, no matter which core the audio-related processes are scheduled to run on.

A performant system is one with many cores, but also with powerful cores. Often, it is also beneficial if they have high single-thread performance. Single-thread performance is important because some DAW-related tasks are processed on only one CPU core and cannot be split across multiple cores. These tasks also need to be processed in time.

As you can see, it is a complex ecosystem that needs to be balanced. Even the fastest system can result in poor DAW performance if the drivers are bad and if you have high DPC latency. Such issues do not show up in benchmarks, as benchmarks typically use all CPU cores, and it doesn't matter when the results arrive.

The big difference with DAW/audio processing is that it has real-time processing requirements. It is crucial that all audio-related jobs are processed on time because "too late" is simply too late, leading to audio drops.

A good strategy is to set up the PC properly. Avoid unnecessary tools that can block CPUs for too long. I have had bad experiences with tools from the motherboard vendor for automatic tasks like fan control, BIOS, and driver updates. They are often so poorly coded that they can significantly impact performance.

When setting up a new computer, I perform frequent LatencyMon measurements to monitor DPC latency. Again, this is not audible latency and has nothing to do with audio itself. It is the processing latency when jobs are being executed.

My first measurement is on a freshly installed system. I then try to achieve the best/lowest DPC values by fine-tuning the BIOS. All you need to do in the BIOS is disable energy-saving features. This is easier on a desktop system than on a laptop. On a laptop, energy-saving features are typically necessary to prevent overheating, and if the CPU gets too hot, its clock speed may need to be throttled, reducing overall performance.

Once the BIOS settings are optimized, I start installing only the necessary drivers. After each driver installation, I perform LatencyMon measurements again to check for problematic drivers. Finally, I install the applications, continuing to monitor DPC latency throughout the process.

In Windows, you should also select an energy profile that disables energy-saving features as much as possible. On a desktop system, you can use the hidden "Ultimate Performance" power profile. On a laptop, your options may be more limited; some systems do not even allow you to choose "High Performance," leaving you with only the "Balanced" mode.

This is the process of gaining experience with your system, learning how computers work, and understanding the importance of having an agile system with low DPC latencies.

If the setup is nicely optimized and your DPC latencies are "ok" but you still cannot set ASIO buffers as low as you need or like, then it can be the case, that your CPU is not fast enough. Or it has not enough cores or is missing single thread performance. It can also be that the DAW project is not set up well.
Too many inserts on a track need higher single thread performance because audio needs to be sent through all inserts / VSTs and all this needs to be computed in time.

The more control you have over these factors, the lower the typical ASIO buffer sizes you can use in your DAW projects.

On average, you can work with lower ASIO buffer sizes on an agile computer with low DPC latencies.

But again, we are only talking about processing audio in time and avoiding audio drops.

The RTL depends solely on the chosen ASIO buffer size. The key point is how low the ASIO buffer size can be, based on your system’s performance (CPU, etc.) and low DPC latencies.

Hi ramses,

Thanks for your long explanation! So, good audio performance doesn't just depend on a robust RME driver, but also all the other drivers I have on my system could contribute to the effectiveness of real-time audio on my system. Is this a good enough summary?

Regarding settings, I believe I've disabled most power saving features, at least the ones that can be disabled on the system UI. I can't work with BIOS because the interface doesn't have text-to-speech audio capabilities, and I'm blind.

What I'm just curious is why in the past, I can work with a buffer size of 64, but now I have to do at least 96 or 128? And is there anything I can do within my power to bring some of that speed back into my laptop?

I upgrade to RME because of the great driver, the sound, and over all solid user experience. I hope I can continue benefiting from all this.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

I did an addition to my text, to have less work here copy/paste for you

Another helpful approach is to optimize the Windows process scheduler for background tasks. According to my research, this means that each job runs similarly to how it does on Windows Server systems, with a fixed and slightly longer time quantum. This allows the CPU to work more efficiently on a single task for a longer period, reducing the number of context switches. See my blog article:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … es-or-not/

Now to your last question. I can only speculate here.
1. As I explained to you, all audio channels of an interface are being transferred instantly over USB, no matter if the channels are in use or not. The Babyface Pro FS is a 24 channel interface (in+out). Maybe the old interface had fewer channels, thus less data to process in time.
2. The Yamaha or Steinberg driver might have higher safety buffers, on the one hand resulting in higher RTLs but on the other hand providing more safety on systems which have issues processing audio in time.

Another option

3. Possibly, you are currently using a USB port for the Babyface on your system, which is shared with another USB device.
Try all USB ports, no matter if USB3 or USB2, and check whether you find a port where the Babyface Pro runs better.
For tests, I would
— remove USB Hubs and
— remove as many USB devices as possible
and test all USB ports with the BBF Pro directly attached to USB ports on the laptop.

If you would have a Desktop system I would recommend you to isolate the BBF Pro behind a dedicated USB3 PCIe card
where you connect only the Babyface Pro. The Sonnet card with FL1100 chipset is such an excellent card.
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/alle … 4port.html

If your laptop supports Thunderbolt, you might try to get a Sonnet Thunderbolt extension chassis which supports also Windows and then mount the Sonnet USB3 card into this extension chassis and connect the BBF Pro FS there.

An alternative to that would be to get a thunderbolt-based dock with USB3 ports, but then you have no control, which USB3 controller will be inside the dock. But it will definitively be cheaper compared to getting a  thunderbolt-based expansion chassis and the PCIe card.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

It is hard to guess why suddenly audio buffer for Babyface must be bigger.

It may be that you use different USB sockets.
It may be that something has changed in SW that you use for piano plugins and it needs more CPU.
It may be update of OS.
It may be that you have installed new SW and it has changed something...
It may be that you have started to use higher samplerate and computer needs more time to compute everything.

The thing is that your computer is not very strong. IMHO you should be happy that buffer needed is only 128 samples. I have used notebook of similar spec like yours and I had to use for heavier projects buffer 2048 and more. :-(

If latency does not cause you problems (is not recognisable or is acceptable), I would not bother about buffer size much.

I would try different USB sockets.
I would set web browsers so that they really do close, when I decide so.
And you may try to switch off Defender, but only when you also switch internet off. And do not forget to switch Defender on when you finish playing.

You could ask someone to get replaced HDD by SSD. It did help a great deal on my old notebook. But it is the question whether to invest into notebook that is rather weak.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

ramses wrote:

I did an addition to my text, to have less work here copy/paste for you

Another helpful approach is to optimize the Windows process scheduler for background tasks. According to my research, this means that each job runs similarly to how it does on Windows Server systems, with a fixed and slightly longer time quantum. This allows the CPU to work more efficiently on a single task for a longer period, reducing the number of context switches. See my blog article:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … es-or-not/

Now to your last question. I can only speculate here.
1. As I explained to you, all audio channels of an interface are being transferred instantly over USB, no matter if the channels are in use or not. The Babyface Pro FS is a 24 channel interface (in+out). Maybe the old interface had fewer channels, thus less data to process in time.
2. The Yamaha or Steinberg driver might have higher safety buffers, on the one hand resulting in higher RTLs but on the other hand providing more safety on systems which have issues processing audio in time.

Another option

3. Possibly, you are currently using a USB port for the Babyface on your system, which is shared with another USB device.
Try all USB ports, no matter if USB3 or USB2, and check whether you find a port where the Babyface Pro runs better.
For tests, I would
— remove USB Hubs and
— remove as many USB devices as possible
and test all USB ports with the BBF Pro directly attached to USB ports on the laptop.

If you would have a Desktop system I would recommend you to isolate the BBF Pro behind a dedicated USB3 PCIe card
where you connect only the Babyface Pro. The Sonnet card with FL1100 chipset is such an excellent card.
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/alle … 4port.html

If your laptop supports Thunderbolt, you might try to get a Sonnet Thunderbolt extension chassis which supports also Windows and then mount the Sonnet USB3 card into this extension chassis and connect the BBF Pro FS there.

An alternative to that would be to get a thunderbolt-based dock with USB3 ports, but then you have no control, which USB3 controller will be inside the dock. But it will definitively be cheaper compared to getting a  thunderbolt-based expansion chassis and the PCIe card.

Hi ramses,

Thanks for your reply! I read the blog article and really enjoyed it. So, I'll just set the "Processor scheduling" section to "Background services."

Unfortunately, my current setup doesn't allow an external SSD, and my midi connection isn't very long, so I can't move the Babyface Pro FS to one of the USB type A ports on the right. It has to stick with one of the USB C ports on the top left. If you want pictures, my laptop is Dell Precision 3560.

Thanks for helping out, looks like it's the best I can do.

David

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Kubrak wrote:

It is hard to guess why suddenly audio buffer for Babyface must be bigger.

It may be that you use different USB sockets.
It may be that something has changed in SW that you use for piano plugins and it needs more CPU.
It may be update of OS.
It may be that you have installed new SW and it has changed something...
It may be that you have started to use higher samplerate and computer needs more time to compute everything.

The thing is that your computer is not very strong. IMHO you should be happy that buffer needed is only 128 samples. I have used notebook of similar spec like yours and I had to use for heavier projects buffer 2048 and more. :-(

If latency does not cause you problems (is not recognisable or is acceptable), I would not bother about buffer size much.

I would try different USB sockets.
I would set web browsers so that they really do close, when I decide so.
And you may try to switch off Defender, but only when you also switch internet off. And do not forget to switch Defender on when you finish playing.

You could ask someone to get replaced HDD by SSD. It did help a great deal on my old notebook. But it is the question whether to invest into notebook that is rather weak.

Hi Kubrak,

You may be right. My laptop is at least 2 years old, and the model itself came out 3 years ago, so yeah. But I'm not ready for a new laptop yet. I think it's still usable.

Thanks for sharing, maybe I should be content with a buffer of 128. smile

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Kubrak wrote:

It is hard to guess why suddenly audio buffer for Babyface must be bigger.

It may be that you use different USB sockets.
It may be that something has changed in SW that you use for piano plugins and it needs more CPU.
It may be update of OS.
It may be that you have installed new SW and it has changed something...
It may be that you have started to use higher samplerate and computer needs more time to compute everything.

The thing is that your computer is not very strong. IMHO you should be happy that buffer needed is only 128 samples. I have used notebook of similar spec like yours and I had to use for heavier projects buffer 2048 and more. :-(

If latency does not cause you problems (is not recognisable or is acceptable), I would not bother about buffer size much.

I would try different USB sockets.
I would set web browsers so that they really do close, when I decide so.
And you may try to switch off Defender, but only when you also switch internet off. And do not forget to switch Defender on when you finish playing.

You could ask someone to get replaced HDD by SSD. It did help a great deal on my old notebook. But it is the question whether to invest into notebook that is rather weak.

I found that Chrome is already not running in the background, but MS Edge has what's called "startup boost" was turned on, so it has a process that's running in the background waiting for me to start Edge. I've since shut it down. Thanks for helping me look!

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

As I said it’s not the buffer size that matters. It’s the latency it the buffer size. If it plays ok at 128 then there is t a problem. The Yamaha may be playing fine at 64 but actually have higher latency.

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

25 (edited by ramses 2024-08-21 07:38:16)

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Unfortunately, my current setup doesn't allow an external SSD, and my midi connection isn't very long, so I can't move the Babyface Pro FS to one of the USB type A ports on the right. It has to stick with one of the USB C ports on the top left. If you want pictures, my laptop is Dell Precision 3560.

According to google search a passive MIDI cable can be up to 15 m.
The longest cable that I found at Thomann is 10 m, so I am not 100% sure whether 15 m is really possible.

This cable with 5 pin assigned costs around €10.
https://www.thomann.de/de/the_sssnake_p … ikabel.htm

Would that help to give you more options to try other ports for the Babyface?

Regarding your Laptop and its performance.
Usually Laptops are offered with different options for CPU, GPU and Harddisk.
Can you please tell which model you have exactly?
What CPU, amount of DRAM, which graphic card, harddisk or SSD and its capacity.

Regarding the point of whether your CPU is powerful enough.
I found a model of your DELL with this CPU: i7-1185G7

If you look at the Passmark mixed Benchmarks and compare it with Desktop CPUs, then the CPU appears to be fine.
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cp … mp;id=3793

It has about the same performance as my initial 10y old Intel Xeon CPU E5-1650v3 and even a higher single thread performance: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cp … mp;id=2389

With my 1st Intel Xeon 6-core CPU (I got now an 8-core successor at a nice price @eBay) I was already able to run my artificial Cubase "stress test" project with 400 tracks and around 800 VST (2 per track).
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … cks-de-en/

In project where I am using different VSTi as backing track (NI B3 Organ, Superior Drummer and Spectrasonic Trillian) I also didn't have any issues with lower ASIO buffer sizes if I remember right.

The problem with your computer seems to be, that the performance of the CPU is not constantly available due to high DPC latencies. The DPC Latencies that you measured at the beginning.
Did you measure on an IDLE system and without mouse and keyboard activity?
The reason is, that LatencyMon already induces a system load compareable to a DAW workload.

I noticed that the DPC latencies were already on the "high side" over 800 relatively close to the edge of 1000µs
where the tool tells that your system appears to be unable for handling real-time audio and other tasks without dropouts.
But currently I do not have any idea "from far" what could make the situation significantly better.

I would still try the other USB ports or maybe try a Thunderbolt USB docking station.
There you could connect maybe the BBF Pro behind it alone to isolate it as the only device behind an USB controller.
As I can see, you have Thunderbolt and DELL offers Thunderbolt-based Docking stations.
https://www.dell.com/de-de/shop/dell-th … bdtd/docks

Perhaps the cable of the docking station is long enough that you can place the docking station close to the right side of your Laptop to plug some USB connections there. Or get a longer MIDI cable at 1st.

EDITed, pls read again.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Another topic based on the experience with a Lenovo Business Laptop.
At that time, I had an UFX and the Laptop was unable to playback music with an ASIO buffer size of 48 samples.
I needed 128 or even 256 samples to get stability.
This was really odd, as the Laptop was IDLE, only Music playback with MusicBee player which even supports ASIO driver.

Long story short. The Lenovo CPU had a built-in GPU and a 2nd nVidia GPU.
When I configured MusicBee to use the nVidia GPU for graphical output then the audio dropouts were completely gone even with the lowest ASIO buffer size of 48 samples at single speed.

That brought me to the point to think, that the design of having a GPU in a CPU is maybe not the best one for real-time audio processing. Maybe the internal GPU and the CPU have race conditions trying to access RAM or what not at the same time and blocking each other too much.

I noticed that the Dell that I found in a review had also a nVidia chip on board.
If there is a separate GPU on your Laptops mainboard there should also be a configuration utility where you can configure which application has to use the more powerful GPU.
If something like this is possibly on your system, you could try to run the DAW on the more powerful GPU.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

ramses wrote:

Another topic based on the experience with a Lenovo Business Laptop.
At that time, I had an UFX and the Laptop was unable to playback music with an ASIO buffer size of 48 samples.
I needed 128 or even 256 samples to get stability.
This was really odd, as the Laptop was IDLE, only Music playback with MusicBee player which even supports ASIO driver.

Long story short. The Lenovo CPU had a built-in GPU and a 2nd nVidia GPU.
When I configured MusicBee to use the nVidia GPU for graphical output then the audio dropouts were completely gone even with the lowest ASIO buffer size of 48 samples at single speed.

That brought me to the point to think, that the design of having a GPU in a CPU is maybe not the best one for real-time audio processing. Maybe the internal GPU and the CPU have race conditions trying to access RAM or what not at the same time and blocking each other too much.

I noticed that the Dell that I found in a review had also a nVidia chip on board.
If there is a separate GPU on your Laptops mainboard there should also be a configuration utility where you can configure which application has to use the more powerful GPU.
If something like this is possibly on your system, you could try to run the DAW on the more powerful GPU.

Can you tell me how this is done? Yes, my laptop has both a built-in GPU on my CPU, and a separate GPU.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

I am not sure, it is 10y ago ...
If you have nVidia, then maybe in the Nvidia Control Panel.
- left side: 3D Settings -> Manage 3D Settings
- right side: TAB "Program Settings"

Here it might be possible that you can choose a program and set whether it should use the integrated GPU (Intel) or the dedicated NVIDIA GPU.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

What energy profile do you use?
Do you get lower DPC latencies when disabling Bluetooth and wireless?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

ramses wrote:

What energy profile do you use?
Do you get lower DPC latencies when disabling Bluetooth and wireless?

I'm on Ultimate Performance, and I dissable Bluetooth and WiFi when I'm running Reaper.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

ramses wrote:

I am not sure, it is 10y ago ...
If you have nVidia, then maybe in the Nvidia Control Panel.
- left side: 3D Settings -> Manage 3D Settings
- right side: TAB "Program Settings"

Here it might be possible that you can choose a program and set whether it should use the integrated GPU (Intel) or the dedicated NVIDIA GPU.

I've never worked with this software before, let me see if I can make this change.

32 (edited by ramses 2024-08-21 09:56:08)

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Sorry, I overlooked this. You mentioned you are running Windows 11.

Windows 11 introduced new security features which significantly slow down the computer, especially older ones.

I performed a test installation of Win11 on a 2nd SSD. I had to use Rufus tool to create a modified installation media,
which disables the check for CPU otherwise an installation on my CPU would not be possible anymore.
It also disables automatically: "core isolation" and the need for TPM and Secure Boot.
This way an installation was possible.

But once I enabled "core isolation" as a test, the performance went down significantly and was like crap.
The system and the GUI felt laggy.
Well, that's the reason Microsoft doesn't allow installation with older CPUs because the performance sucks.
They should not have released such a "security crap" that has such an impact on performance.

To be honest, I would have installed Windows 10 Pro instead because Windows 11 has absolutely no benefits to you.
It has about the same EoL as Windows 10 but slows down your computer and enforces you now to use online accounts, which is a bad thing, and it introduced some changes to the GUI which I, personally, do not like.

Therefore, my recommendation either to install Win10 or to disable Kern Isolation in Windows 11.

What I would do as an immediate measure on your current Win11 installation:

1. Disable Core Isolation.
Open the Start Menu and go to Settings. Navigate to Privacy & Security.
Select Windows Security and then Device Security. Click on Core Isolation Details.
Toggle off Memory Integrity. Restart your PC to apply the changes.

2. You could also try to enable Game Mode. Game Mode optimizes system resources for gaming,
but it also has other benefits.

Open Settings, Go to Gaming -> Game Mode. Toggle Game Mode on.

It reduces the CPU and GPU resources used by background processes and gives more power to the game and if you are not gaming, to other applications like DAW or VSTi.
When Game Mode is enabled, Windows minimizes background activity that could interfere with your gaming (or recording) experience. This includes reducing notifications, pausing background updates, and limiting other apps' access to system resources.
By limiting system interruptions and focusing on the game, Game Mode can help reduce instances of stuttering or lag caused by background processes.
While in Game Mode, Windows might delay certain system updates, like non-critical Windows updates, ensuring that your gaming session isn't interrupted by automatic restarts.

If this all doesn't help. I would buy an external Thunderbolt SSD disk and do a parallel installation of Win 10 Pro. Enable dual boot and then compare. Ask somebody external for help to set this up.
Of you buy an SSD or M.2 internal disk for your Laptop and install Win10 directly there.
The Win11 installation you can move to an external disk.
Eventually the Laptop allows installation of Harddisk and M.2 in parallel.
Or two M.2 .. then you can migrate Win11 to one and install Win10 in parallel to the other.

Then you have prepared for working nicely on one, most likely Win10 and can experiment with later versions of Windows when an Update has to be made.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Some information about Laptops for real time processing. Read it in addition to what I told you to get maybe even more understanding about the topic.

It is in German though, but you could use an online translation tool or maybe your browser has already translation support enabled.

https://www.xmg.gg/news-deep-dive-audio … dpc-latenz

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Schenker / XMG provide a list of DPC latency for notebooks.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/ … html?pli=1

You can see from this list, how different systems can be … the measured DPC has a range from 317 to 2479 μs.

The best systems are

15" Screen: XMG APEX 15, Product ID: XAP15L23, DPC 317 μs
Review here: https://www.notebookcheck.net/XMG-Apex- … #c10337126

17" Screen: XMG APEX 17, Product ID: XAP17L23, DPC 331 μs
Review here: https://www.notebookcheck.net/XMG-Apex- … #c10320518

In their measuring they configured LatencyMon (under Tool -> Options) to measure "Interrupt to User process latency".
Which is usually a little worse than "interrupt to DPC latency" because it measures the latency from the perspective of the user process not "inside the system" (let me call it "pure interrupt handling").

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

ramses wrote:

Sorry I overlooked this. You mentioned you are running Windows 11.

Windows 11 introduced new security features which significantly slow down the computer, especially older ones.

To be honest, I would have installed Windows 10 Pro instead because Windows 11 has absolutely no benefits to you.
It has about the same EoL as Windows 10 but slows down your computer and enforces you now to use online accounts, which is a bad thing, and it introduced some changes to the GUI which I, personally, do not like.

What I would do as an immediate measure and this could significantly boost your system if the kern isolation feature is still enabled on your system ...

1. Disable Core Isolation.
Open the Start Menu and go to Settings. Navigate to Privacy & Security.
Select Windows Security and then Device Security. Click on Core Isolation Details.
Toggle off Memory Integrity. Restart your PC to apply the changes.

2. You could also try to enable Game Mode. Game Mode optimizes system resources for gaming,
but it has also other benefits.

Open Settings, Go to Gaming -> Game Mode. Toggle Game Mode on.

It reduces the CPU and GPU resources used by background processes and gives more power to the game and if you are not gaming, to other applications like DAW or VSTi.
When Game Mode is enabled, Windows minimizes background activity that could interfere with your gaming (or recording) experience. This includes reducing notifications, pausing background updates, and limiting other apps' access to system resources.
By limiting system interruptions and focusing on the game, Game Mode can help reduce instances of stuttering or lag caused by background processes.
While in Game Mode, Windows might delay certain system updates, like non-critical Windows updates, ensuring that your gaming session isn't interrupted by automatic restarts.

If this all doesn't help. I would buy an external Thunderbolt SSD disk and do a parallel installation of Win 10 Pro. Enable dual boot and then compare. Ask somebody external for help to set this up.
Of you buy an SSD or M.2 internal disk for your Laptop and install Win10 directly there.
The Win11 installation you can move to an external disk.
Eventually the Laptop allows installation of Harddisk and M.2 in parallel.
Or two M.2 .. then you can migrate Win11 to one and install Win10 in parallel to the other.

Then you have prepared for working nicely on one, most likely Win10 and can experiment with later versions of Windows when an Update has to be made.

Thank you! I was able to set the graphics card to the NVIDIA one, but I start hearing more fan noise than usual. After turning on Game Mode, though, the fan noise died down immediately.

I can't use Core Isolation for some reason, due to hardware limitations. So I can't turn it on to begin with. It's off by default.

I've so far found Windows 11 similar experiences to Windows 10. I don't mind an online Microsoft account, I find no impact to how I'm using the machine.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

ramses wrote:

Schenker / XMG provide a list of DPC latency for notebooks.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/ … html?pli=1

You can see from this list, how different systems can be … the measured DPC has a range from 317 to 2479 μs.

The best systems are

15" Screen: XMG APEX 15, Product ID: XAP15L23, DPC 317 μs
Review here: https://www.notebookcheck.net/XMG-Apex- … #c10337126

17" Screen: XMG APEX 17, Product ID: XAP17L23, DPC 331 μs
Review here: https://www.notebookcheck.net/XMG-Apex- … #c10320518

In their measuring they configured LatencyMon (under Tool -> Options) to measure "Interrupt to User process latency".
Which is usually a little worse than "interrupt to DPC latency" because it measures the latency from the perspective of the user process not "inside the system" (let me call it "pure interrupt handling").

Thanks for this information. Maybe it is time for me to think about a new laptop system? I don't want to come to this decision lightly, though. But still, good to know that such low DPC latency is possible on a laptop.

37 (edited by ramses 2024-08-23 18:40:03)

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

davidlaijiajun wrote:

I can't use Core Isolation for some reason, due to hardware limitations. So I can't turn it on to begin with. It's off by default.

I've so far found Windows 11 similar experiences to Windows 10. I don't mind an online Microsoft account, I find no impact to how I'm using the machine.

You got it wrong. You shall disable it … otherwise performance goes down.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

ramses wrote:
davidlaijiajun wrote:

I can't use Core Isolation for some reason, due to hardware limitations. So I can't turn it on to begin with. It's off by default.

I've so far found Windows 11 similar experiences to Windows 10. I don't mind an online Microsoft account, I find no impact to how I'm using the machine.

You got it wrong. You shall disable it … otherwise performance goes down …
But if you have deactivated it already, well then bad luck.

Online accounts give Microsoft more power.
Did you hear about the person having a nude photo from the beach of his nice (family member)?
If I recall the story correctly, then this was detected by an online scan, possibly he stored photos on the cloud.
His account became immediately blocked by Microsoft.

Well .. and here comes the bad nature of online accounts.
Nothing worked anymore, even not mail anymore to have the possibility for communication in such a bad situation.

And if Microsoft should change the OS to Software as a Service, then you can't even use your machine entirely if not paying for Windows ....

This is the problem which I see with online accounts, you are more and more dependent on Microsoft.
And they are only in it for the money.

If you look at the EULAs of the past Windows versions, then it was modified piece by piece over the years from Windows 7 to Windows 11. It gives Microsoft more options to get data from you, that you have to allow that they share data with their business partners.
Initially, Windows Updates could be blocked for some time in the Pro versions of Windows, but even that is not the case anymore. With Windows 11 Pro, you can't delay updates anymore (when I looked; maybe they have changed it).
Then you also are Beta tester like all the other Windows Home users.
And with Windows 11, it started that online accounts became mandatory even in the Pro Version of the OS.

If you add 1+1 … Microsoft is slowly and strategically changing the EULA into a direction, which makes you from a system owner to somebody who is fully dependent on Microsoft … More and more …

And an account on a system is something which I regard as highly sensitive which ought to be under YOUR full control.

Microsoft is only in it for the money and to get more control (and data).

Well, not to drag the thread to other topics, but I'm afraid I do have to say 2 things about what you just replied. Since I'm already online, I've already shared a lot about myself out there in public. Plus, I never use cloud drive spaces because I don't like having to pay repeatedly for something.

Update, after using NVIDIA for a while, I thought built-in CPU as GPU is better, as it's less noisy. So I've reverted back to it for now. I guess maybe I should start thinking about another computer sometime down the road, but because of my traveling nature, laptops will still have to be what I need, instead of a desktop system.

Thanks for helping me explore what I can do, I'm glad some improvements were made, good yet limited. Maybe my system is indeed showing its age.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Your HW is not that bad. I made mistake in my statement. :-(

"CPU: GenuineIntel 11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-1185G7 @ 3.00GHz"

I have overlooked this line and spoke based on what monitor says.
"Reported CPU speed (WMI): 1805 MHz"

Probably just exchange of internal HDD for internal SSD could help. You have quite a lot pagefaults, if you cannot avoid them, faster disc would make things better.

And you have pretty much RAM for ordinary notebook, but check if your piano plugin does not take more.... Sample libraries may take a lot of RAM. And if RAM is not suffitient things are swapped to disc, which is in your case slow.

In case of my old notebook, adding RAM and changing HDD to SSD has improved things to great deal.

And one note concerning iGPU and dGPU. iGPU takes RAM, so there is considerably less RAM for programs and samples. dGPU has its own RAM.

40 (edited by ramses 2024-08-21 17:05:48)

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Kubrak wrote:

And you have pretty much RAM for ordinary notebook, but check if your piano plugin does not take more.... Sample libraries may take a lot of RAM. And if RAM is not suffitient things are swapped to disc, which is in your case slow.

32 GB is a good amount of RAM.
I've never seen a VSTi that needed anywhere near that amount of RAM. You?
That's not an orchestra library wink

It would be interesting to know what Piano VSTi he is using.

Fact is, that the device has quite high DPC latencies, which is just about at the limit of what is still suitable for real-time audio and I still think he should check all USB ports, maybe he uses a port which is shared with another USB device which is know to cause issues.

I also would strongly suggest using a SSD, that is not that expensive and with good tools (disk imaging software)
you can easily migrate a system from Hard disk to SSD if you know what you need to do. I did it for a friend and for myself several times with Macrium Reflect.

I would also consider using Win10 and that somebody with a little knowledge does a basic installation without nothing else but LatencyMon to check, what the Laptop is able to deliver ..

But if  even this minimum installation without any further driver would show, that DPC latencies under Win10 Pro are still high, then you know that it is the laptop and that you can't do anything to fix it.

For the next purchase he needs to check what Laptops have low DPCs and are thus suitable for near-realtime audio processing.

As the laptop doesn't seem to be bad at all for normal business tasks he should consider selling it as long as it is not too old to cross finance the next Laptop.

I would look for a laptop which is suitable for Win11 Pro but which has still drivers for Win10 and then install Win10 Pro without all this M$ kern iso crap. Then you even do not need to think about deactivating this stuff.
With Windows 10 Pro I would also look to make an installation with local user account.

You can have a local user account on the system and still have a M$ account to access / work with cloud stuff (Storage, Services).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Some good advice for the OP in this thread.

I'll add that next October Microsoft will no longer give any more Windows 10 updates, security or otherwise. (Unless you pay, still unclear here). So any laptop not upgradable to Windows 11 is unlikely to hold it it's sales value.

42 (edited by Muffin 2024-08-21 18:38:13)

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

ramses wrote:
Muffin wrote:

Some good advice for the OP in this thread.

I'll add that next October Microsoft will no longer give any more Windows 10 updates, security or otherwise. (Unless you pay, still unclear here). So any laptop not upgradable to Windows 11 is unlikely to hold it it's sales value.

Win10 and Win11 have their EoL at nearly the same month … I would buy HW for Win11 ("/12") but install 10.

I think you're misunderstanding what is EOL. Windows 11 as such is not EOL but the various sub-releases will be EOL, similar to Windows 10 major updates. So Windows 11 Version 23H2 is EOL November 2025, but version 24H2 is not released yet.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifec … me-and-pro

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_11,_version_24H2

43 (edited by ramses 2024-08-23 18:38:15)

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Muffin wrote:
ramses wrote:
Muffin wrote:

Some good advice for the OP in this thread.

I'll add that next October Microsoft will no longer give any more Windows 10 updates, security or otherwise. (Unless you pay, still unclear here). So any laptop not upgradable to Windows 11 is unlikely to hold it it's sales value.

Win10 and Win11 have their EoL at nearly the same month … I would buy HW for Win11 ("/12") but install 10.

I think you're misunderstanding what is EOL. Windows 11 as such is not EOL but the various sub-releases will be EOL, similar to Windows 10 major updates. So Windows 11 Version 23H2 is EOL November 2025, but version 24H2 is not released yet.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifec … me-and-pro

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_11,_version_24H2

Ah ok, then I have old information. When I investigated, this was not yet clear. Thanks.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

44 (edited by Kubrak 2024-08-21 21:36:24)

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

ramses wrote:

32 GB is a good amount of RAM.
I've never seen a VSTi that needed anywhere near that amount of RAM. You?
That's not an orchestra library wink

Well, deeply sampled violin with multimic may take 5 GB RAM. Maybe there are even bulkier ones.
I have only ordinary piano libs and they probably do not take that much. But deeply sampled may take a bit.

And one may load to DAW several pianos, I have five, six in "project". To be able to fast switch from one to another. And few GB of RAM is reserved for iGPU.

So purely theoretically one may fill up RAM rather easily, if not "carefull".

I do not say, it is OP's problem, I just asked him to check it. If there is few GB of free RAM after loading project, than it is OK.

EDIT.
For example Ivory Engine, that OP mentiones, has 100+ GB of samples. I do not say it loads everything to RAM, for sure not. But it is huge.

The thing is that those libraries may run in smaller RAM than they need, but in that case fast disc is needed and maybe also bigger audio buffer....

I have experienced the both, lack of RAM and HDD. Adding RAM and replacing HDD by SSD did help a lot.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

Hi everyone,

Good to wake up to replies from all of you! Some thoughts to share:

1. I do use an SSD, but the rams I use were from the previous Dell 3540 which I owned from 2019 to early 2022. The reason I hate to give them up is because, I spent money and paid for one of them (the original machine came with a 16-GB ram memory only). Anyway, I don't want this money go to waste as I've spent it on a ram memory stick. Also, my 4-year-old SSD was something I paid for. It's 2 TB, and still working. I do have an external SSD purchased, I just haven't opened up the package yet. Plus, I can't install things myself, nor work with computers on the hardware level. So if I want to transfer my system, I need to either pay for services, or try to find someone who's talented to do that for me on site.

2. The piano libraries I own are: Garritan CFX, Ivory II American Concert D, Ivory III German D, VI Labs Ravenscroft 275 and Modern U. Not all are on my system right now, some are backed up on a portable HDD and, if I want it, I can bring it back.

3. Without straying too far from this thread, but I just want to say that I started using an online account ever since Windows 10 pro. I purchased a key then and so I've been going all official since 2019 and don't see the harm of it. I upgraded to 11 for free last year (or was it 2 years ago?). The accessibility using screen readers like NVDA is good, and that's the main reason why I have my setup this way. I can't jump to a different system at this moment, and Windows is the first computer system I learned at blind school. I've heard that MacOS has a lot of long-standing bugs for VoiceOver, and is generally more clunky than iOS in navigating with accessible tech. Plus, it's difficult to make changes to the UI with scripts if I want to improve the functions of my DAW so my speech program could read better if I was to be on a Mac.

Hope this helps.

David

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

to 1) I hope the DRAM is of the same type (speed) from a 1st look it seems to be the case: DDR4-3200 SODIMM.
        But should the old RAM be slower, then I would guess all DRAMs would be set to slower timing / access speed.

to 2) regarding the issues, which one do you use currently?
BTW, do you use them in stand-alone mode or through the DAW?
If you use them in stand-alone mode, is the correct ASIO driver being used?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

47 (edited by ramses 2024-08-22 07:57:26)

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

I copied and pasted Davids text to ChatGPT and asked for a summary of his setup / issues.
It usually gives a lot of wrong information, but for a summary I think it is well enough.

In a post later, I tell you about a new idea that came to my mind.

System Information:

    Laptop Model: Dell Precision 3560
    Operating System: Windows 11, version 2009, build 22631 (x64)
    CPU: Intel 11th Gen Core i7-1185G7 @ 3.00GHz (8 logical processors)
    RAM: 32 GB (Some RAM modules transferred from a previous Dell 3540 laptop)
    Storage: 2 TB SSD (4 years old, single slot for SSD)
    Graphics: Integrated GPU (preferred due to less fan noise) and NVIDIA GPU (caused more fan noise, thus reverted to integrated GPU)
    DAW: Reaper
    Main Piano Libraries: UVI WorkStation, Ivory engine, Garritan CFX, Ravenscroft 275, Modern U

Audio Interface:

    Current Interface: RME Babyface Pro FS
        Minimum Stable Buffer Size: 128 samples at 44.1 kHz (used to achieve 64 samples without issues)
    Previous Interface: Not specified, but could handle 64 samples buffer size without problems
    Alternate Driver: Yamaha Steinberg (tested on a different system, managed 64 samples buffer size without issues)

Software and Background Processes:

    Screen Reader: NVDA
    Web Browsers: Google Chrome, Microsoft Edge (startup boost disabled)
    Video Conferencing: Zoom (used occasionally for teaching)
    Security Software: Windows Defender (believes it could be impacting performance, unable to disable completely)

Power and Performance Settings:

    Power Mode: Ultimate Performance
    Network Adapters: Bluetooth and WiFi disabled during DAW usage
    Processor Scheduling: Set to "Background Services"
    Game Mode: Enabled (reduces fan noise when using NVIDIA GPU)
    Core Isolation: Off (due to hardware limitations)

Latency Issues:

    DPC Latency: Generally between 800-900 microseconds (shortly before 1ms where a PC is not suitable for real-time audio processing)
    Drivers Causing Latency: ACPI driver and Windows kernel driver
    Hard Page Faults: Frequent, with Reaper being affected, ranging from 2000s to 9000s
    Background Processes: Potential hidden processes speculated, but browsers are not running in the background

Recommendations:

    Update/Manage ACPI Driver:
        The ACPI.sys driver is showing high ISR (277.40 µs) and DPC (730.43 µs) execution times.
        Updating this driver or disabling unnecessary ACPI-related power management features in the BIOS (if possible)
        may help reduce latency.

   Optimize Windows Defender:
        The process msmpeng.exe (Windows Defender) is causing a high number of hard pagefaults, which can interrupt audio streams. Consider excluding your DAW, VSTs, and sample libraries from real-time scanning, or temporarily disabling Windows Defender during audio sessions.

General System Optimization:
        Ensure that all unnecessary background processes and services are disabled when running audio applications to minimize interruptions and improve overall performance.

Additional Notes:

    Upgrade Path: Considering a new laptop but prefers not to replace the current system yet.
    External SSD: Purchased but not yet in use. For what if he has internal SSD. For sample libraries?
    Preference: Uses integrated GPU for quieter operation, considers future system upgrades but prioritizes portability due to frequent travel.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

48 (edited by ramses 2024-08-22 08:41:15)

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

David, I’ve had some additional thoughts. The ASIO buffer size setting only adjusts the buffer size and doesn't directly indicate the actual latency. The efficiency of the driver and the number of "safety buffers" used internally by the driver play a crucial role. It’s possible that the audible latency between your old and new interface might not differ significantly, even if you have to use double the ASIO buffer size on the Babyface Pro. I’ve read several reviews of other recording interfaces where the latency with the same ASIO buffer size was double that of the RME driver/interface.

To properly address this, we would need to compare the actual latency values of your old and new setup. In your DAW, the RME driver shows accurate values for input and output latency in the ASIO driver, which isn’t the case with every manufacturer. For a quick comparison, this should suffice. Ideally, you would conduct a precise measurement using a loopback RTL (Round Trip Latency) utility between an analog input and output, but I’d like to save you that effort. Please read on.

It’s also important to remember that when playing through a VSTi, you experience only about half of the full RTL latency since there’s no A/D conversion or transport of audio data from the interface to the DAW. You’re playing a MIDI keyboard, so the only latency comes from processing in the VSTi and the USB path to the audio interface for D/A conversion, which takes less time.

From my experience, latencies under 10ms are perfectly fine for playing guitar through a VSTi. I achieve this with ASIO buffer sizes between 32 and 128 samples. Even 256 samples are still manageable, though at 13.6 ms, it is right at the edge of what’s playable. This is with full RTL, as the guitar signal needs to be A/D converted at the instrument input. You don’t have this step since you’re likely using a USB master keyboard.

Given this, you shouldn’t experience any latency issues at all when playing with a 128-sample ASIO buffer size. Are we perhaps worrying about a problem that doesn’t actually exist, aside from the fact that you can’t set the buffer size to 64 as you were used to?

Are you comfortable playing with a 128-sample ASIO buffer size? If so, we were likely chasing shadows.

If you want to substantiate my suspicion with empirical data, you should conduct a loopback test with both your old and new interfaces, measuring the latency for 64 and 128 samples with an RTL utility between an analog input and output. As noted, the key factor for you is the output latency, not the full RTL. If the output latency is under 10ms, it should be acceptable. I believe you should be able to achieve this, even with a 128-sample buffer size using the Babyface Pro FS.

Furthermore, keep in mind that DPC latency does not affect audible latency directly. While it would be beneficial for DPC latency to be lower to possibly allow for smaller ASIO buffer sizes, the most important factor is that you have a good playing experience and don’t experience audio drops. If you’re comfortable with a 128-sample buffer size and don’t encounter audio issues, that is what truly matters.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

ramses wrote:

to 1) I hope the DRAM is of the same type (speed) from a 1st look it seems to be the case: DDR4-3200 SODIMM.
        But should the old RAM be slower, then I would guess all DRAMs would be set to slower timing / access speed.

to 2) regarding the issues, which one do you use currently?
BTW, do you use them in stand-alone mode or through the DAW?
If you use them in stand-alone mode, is the correct ASIO driver being used?

To 1: Yes, old rams of the same type and speed;
to 2: I'm currently using Garritan CFX, Ravenscroft 275 and Modern U. At the same time, I'm testing a new sample library, as of now I can't say what that library is specifically. I use all of them through Reaper because I can ask sighted people to make accessible patches for me, and it all works through Reaper.

Re: Please Help Me Improve My System

ramses wrote:

I copied and pasted Davids text to ChatGPT and asked for a summary of his setup / issues.
It usually gives a lot of wrong information, but for a summary I think it is well enough.

In a post later, I tell you about a new idea that came to my mind.

Really interesting. OK, a couple of things to this summary:

1. For the previous 64 buffer size, I was able to achieve this using babyface Pro FS, the same one. This was about a few months ago, I think. 2 years ago I used to use FocusRite 4I4 3rd gen, but it's since been given to a friend.
2. The 64 buffer size on the Yamaha driver was tested in a piano store. They have a Yamaha NU1XA, the latest generation of hybrid upright pianos. I sometimes would play there to test out the libraries and how they sound from the piano speakers. I could achieve 64 buffer size without pops or clicks there, and I feel through the piano speakers, I had very responsive playing experiences.

Regarding your thoughts, ramses, you're right, as of now 128 buffer seems to be the best with RME, although few months ago, especially before installing the Yamaha driver, I could achieve buffer size of 64 without pops or clicks. Maybe I should continue using 128? At least since I sometimes would go to the local piano store. What do you think? Maybe there is indeed nothing I can do about my system, and thatI should be happy that it can still do 128 without problems.

Thanks for helping me bring to this conclusion!

David