1 (edited by oiuoiuoiuoiuo 2024-09-23 23:55:34)

Topic: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

So while I'm waiting for my other non rme gear to come in or maybe even make a mistake of buying more rme hardware to remedy something that shouldn't be a problem in the first place I decided to measure things....

I was bored and also a second ucx ii unit arrived that I finally could look at and see if my sound quality concerns were true. I mean I think they are true. Also I don't understand why even though I did say I closed the previous post it was removed because I openly stated the fact that my best solution consideration was probably to pick a competitive mixing like solution akin to minidsp, uad or even maybe motu.

While this pile of garbage is not addressed in fireface series however probably (I assume) it was fixed or improved with dacs with non AKM chips like DAC 2-FS & 2/4 SE something...

Anyways, Here are some results vs uac-232:

I plugged in output ucx-2 of 3/4 to input 1 and output of zoom uac-232 to input 2. (the output signals were level matched at 1khz test tone to around 1/10-1/100 precision)

This is at 1khz test tone:

https://i.imgur.com/xOODWvL.png
https://i.imgur.com/oCUESh4.png

This is by far the worst case scenario for ucx2 it seems, other results will favor ucx2 however I'll get to the point of the first result and why I think this result is important. (which I also did numerous times and came out with the same diff)

https://i.imgur.com/5NkPlfu.png
https://i.imgur.com/D0mdLtc.png

https://i.imgur.com/viMVlGT.png
https://i.imgur.com/Vf6T8p2.png


Takeaways:

I think what is important here is how easy it is to miss a crucial difference between ucx2 and uac-232 in results and simply call uac-232 inferior esp once you look at 60hz test and say wow it's so non-linear in the highs. Yes, however.

When you look at 1khz this is probably where significant difference I end up hearing is in the full mix. I'm sure these single tone harmonic distortion graphs are far from the most perfect method to measure exactly the difference I hear. But damn is UCX II muddy, unclear, blurry in the highs. It's quite unfortunate. I can obviously look through the internet and see a lot of so called audio n***ds call it velety or something, but I wanna be clear. This is more than just cope. This AKM sound is just bad. It only sounds good in the mids and lows (from my subjective experience) and it sounds very muddy and dusty in the highs.

This is where I wanna drive a point home and I suggest next revision of UCX II gets an actual chip that should match its markup value of almost 8x of what it's being compared to.

What I hear:
- lows & mids overall are better on UCX II
- lower-highs/upper-mids transients are weaker on the UCX II but better in lows/mids.
- upper-mids/lower-highs are very subpar on UCX II to the point where I would not mix on this device standalone


I think always the best point to start from is looking at devices that drive the entire market aka cheap ones + mass ones (like apple's dac from cirrus logic).


If you could suggest to me to do any other measurements I could, lmk how. I don't know what it is but the range probably around 1-4k if not broader is concerning...

But yeah my overall take is UCX II should sound better than it does esp for the price. Other features and probably when you get the option to bypass DA it's an incredible device, but unfortunately for intended use it only gets half of the way there. I do prefer totalmix overall, it's exactly what I need. The I/O is exactly what I need. The sound??... Oh well... The sound...

Edit:

Even if this is not a DA chip problem then it's even more unfortunate meaning that current circuit design is way too noisy

2 (edited by KaiS 2024-09-26 15:47:32)

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

Are you aware that you‘ve completely overdriven the sine waves?

This is 100% obvious as the distortions reach almost full scale.
You would have noticed that the sine waves sound completely distorted if you had listened to them for a second.


Even if this wasn‘t the case, you cannot use just any DAC as signal generator to judge an AD-converter.
The DA‘s own noise and distortions spoil the result.

The other way round, to analyze a DA you need a analog notch filter to reduce the fundamental, else you have your result spoiled by the AD‘s performance.

3 (edited by Muffin 2024-09-26 18:40:56)

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

As KaiS wrote you are not doing the measurements correctly.

Here is a review of the UCX II with measurements done by someone that knows what he is doing:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … nts.26755/

4 (edited by KaiS 2024-09-26 20:47:29)

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

Yes, here’s what a sine wave spectrum looks like, running through UCX II’s both DA- AND AD-converters, loopback.
Distortions products 100 dB below fundamental:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/rme-ucx-ii-dashboard-loopback-png.154639/

5 (edited by quidiee 2024-09-23 18:49:26)

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

I found AKM chips to sound quite outdated. I think the sound of cirrus logic chips even though flawed ironically sounds like a better baseline due to the fact that plenty of consumer electronics rely on them. Apples especially.

6 (edited by KaiS 2024-09-24 06:05:16)

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

quidiee wrote:

I found AKM chips to sound quite outdated. I think the sound of cirrus logic chips even though flawed ironically sounds like a better baseline due to the fact that plenty of consumer electronics rely on them. Apples especially.

I did an extensive test of AKM vs ESS.

10 runs of sighted A/Bs (each several minutes with multiple switchings) to learn possible sound characteristics.
Then 100 test runs of blind A/Bs, taking several hours total of testing for which sounds better.

The result: 49:51, no detectable difference.


Sidenote 1:
I found the DA-reconstruction filters, partly same named in both brands, do in fact sound different.
At AKM vs ESS only the filters named “Sharp” do sound the same.
This might lead to audible differences in certain configurations, but this can even happen for AKM vs AKM, ESS vs ESS, etc., if different DA-filters are engaged.

Sidenote 2:
We had Cirrus Logic and AKM when we developed some converters for Stamer.
The specific CL converters did sound good, but I doubt there is a “house sound” of any brand.
A simple ESS vs AKM vs CL vs TI etc. statement leads to nowhere.

7 (edited by ramses 2024-09-23 23:03:07)

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

quidiee wrote:

I found AKM chips to sound quite outdated. I think the sound of cirrus logic chips even though flawed ironically sounds like a better baseline due to the fact that plenty of consumer electronics rely on them. Apples especially.

What is your background, if I may ask? You will understand that people become curious when someone unknown like you suddenly enters a forum and makes strange statements beyond the usual spectrum of experience.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

Outdated sound, really?

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

john34 wrote:

Outdated sound, really?

Trolling BS, forget it.
This guy has no clue, never made a true level matched blind A/B to find out the differences are really hard to detect… etc.

Might even be a chatbot, I‘ve seen those several times lately, with equally unqualified comments.
No idea what they are out for - training rounds like a boxer with his sparring partner?

10 (edited by oiuoiuoiuoiuo 2024-09-26 01:05:16)

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

Lol, right, a bot. Compared two UCX II units to a shabby uac-232 and clearly heard more mud and noise in the highs even though UCX II DA was more linear and sounded really good in lows/mids. Maybe that's not just the chip's fault and maybe just UCX II being a bloated circuit design (possibly due to costs & size constraints esp with the amount of IO + some DSP) reveals these weird characteristics but let me tell you I was using my hears so. I don't do audio engineering, but I was simply looking to get a better interface to integrate a sub and do proper alignment with REW. And yeah, I think it made me kinda perplexed when hearing such lack in sound from a device with such markup. Just kinda goofy and also a waste of my time esp with all the marketing out there... And also do mind when I say UCX II, I say UCX II. I can't speak on the DACs, UFX III and babyface... But to me a semi-flagship sounding this weak is not a good look.

In terms of me calling out say ESS or Cirrus is cuz I wouldn't be surprised if for example current ESS implementations in RME are much better 1.. 2. Cirrus because plenty of stupid cheap consumer electronics with those chips still sound okay. It might not be the chips themselves but clearly however is working on them might have certain association that makes them do on average a lil better or who knows it might even come down to basics of economies of scale. I think besides being linear there is the other factor imo of sounding clean and close to mass market hardware that sounds good.

tldr; If the song on a linear device sounds muddier or noisier than a freaking airpods pro2 you can't make any excuses about the engineering marvel of the unit's DA, it's just a fail. And I'm being precise with terms in this instance. I'm specifically referring to the characteristics of the performance of the audio and not the 'tone'. And yes ofc making a da for a standard interconnect is always harder than something like an integrated DA with the driver, but my point still stands.

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

oiuoiuoiuoiuo wrote:

Lol, right, a bot. Compared two UCX II units to a shabby uac-232 and clearly heard more mud and noise in the highs even though UCX II DA was more linear and sounded really good in lows/mids. Maybe that's not just the chip's fault and maybe just UCX II being a bloated circuit design (possibly due to costs & size constraints esp with the amount of IO + some DSP) reveals these weird characteristics but let me tell you I was using my hears so. I don't do audio engineering, but I was simply looking to get a better interface to integrate a sub and do proper alignment with REW. And yeah, I think it made me kinda perplexed when hearing such lack in sound from a device with such markup. Just kinda goofy and also a waste of my time esp with all the marketing out there... And also do mind when I say UCX II, I say UCX II. I can't speak on the DACs, UFX III and babyface... But to me a semi-flagship sounding this weak is not a good look.

In terms of me calling out say ESS or Cirrus is cuz I wouldn't be surprised if for example current ESS implementations in RME are much better 1.. 2. Cirrus because plenty of stupid cheap consumer electronics with those chips still sound okay. It might not be the chips themselves but clearly however is working on them might have certain association that makes them do on average a lil better or who knows it might even come down to basics of economies of scale. I think besides being linear there is the other factor imo of sounding clean and close to mass market hardware that sounds good.

tldr; If the song on a linear device sounds muddier or noisier than a freaking airpods pro2 you can't make any excuses about the engineering marvel of the unit's DA, it's just a fail. And I'm being precise with terms in this instance. I'm specifically referring to the characteristics of the performance of the audio and not the 'tone'. And yes ofc making a da for a standard interconnect is always harder than something like an integrated DA with the driver, but my point still stands.

I look forward to you posting test measurements and data  to support your subjective opinions .

WY

CD Transport>optical>RME ADI-2 DAC FS(AKM)>XLR balanced >GLM software>Genelec Monitors 8340A

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

oiuoiuoiuoiuo wrote:

Lol, right, a bot. Compared two UCX II units to a shabby uac-232 and clearly heard more mud and noise in the highs even though UCX II DA was more linear and sounded really good in lows/mids. Maybe that's not just the chip's fault and maybe just UCX II being a bloated circuit design (possibly due to costs & size constraints esp with the amount of IO + some DSP) reveals these weird characteristics but let me tell you I was using my hears so. I don't do audio engineering, but I was simply looking to get a better interface to integrate a sub and do proper alignment with REW. And yeah, I think it made me kinda perplexed when hearing such lack in sound from a device with such markup. Just kinda goofy and also a waste of my time esp with all the marketing out there... And also do mind when I say UCX II, I say UCX II. I can't speak on the DACs, UFX III and babyface... But to me a semi-flagship sounding this weak is not a good look.

In terms of me calling out say ESS or Cirrus is cuz I wouldn't be surprised if for example current ESS implementations in RME are much better 1.. 2. Cirrus because plenty of stupid cheap consumer electronics with those chips still sound okay. It might not be the chips themselves but clearly however is working on them might have certain association that makes them do on average a lil better or who knows it might even come down to basics of economies of scale. I think besides being linear there is the other factor imo of sounding clean and close to mass market hardware that sounds good.

tldr; If the song on a linear device sounds muddier or noisier than a freaking airpods pro2 you can't make any excuses about the engineering marvel of the unit's DA, it's just a fail. And I'm being precise with terms in this instance. I'm specifically referring to the characteristics of the performance of the audio and not the 'tone'. And yes ofc making a da for a standard interconnect is always harder than something like an integrated DA with the driver, but my point still stands.

It’s noticeable that you are the only one consistently reporting such severe issues with the UCX II. Moreover, your posts frequently cross the line in terms of tone, with repeated harsh criticism aimed at both the manufacturer and the product, and this occurs across multiple threads.

As a long-time customer who has successfully used RME products in both studio and high-end HiFi environments for many years, I find it difficult to understand your complaints. You appear to be the only customer experiencing these issues.

Typically, when someone is dissatisfied with a product, they return or exchange it. Providing feedback in such cases is of course perfectly fine, and constructive criticism is always welcome. However, what you’re doing here goes beyond the bounds of reasonable discussion.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

13

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

yuhasz01 wrote:
oiuoiuoiuoiuo wrote:

Lol, right, a bot. Compared two UCX II units to a shabby uac-232 and clearly heard more mud and noise in the highs even though UCX II DA was more linear and sounded really good in lows/mids. Maybe that's not just the chip's fault and maybe just UCX II being a bloated circuit design (possibly due to costs & size constraints esp with the amount of IO + some DSP) reveals these weird characteristics but let me tell you I was using my hears so. I don't do audio engineering, but I was simply looking to get a better interface to integrate a sub and do proper alignment with REW. And yeah, I think it made me kinda perplexed when hearing such lack in sound from a device with such markup. Just kinda goofy and also a waste of my time esp with all the marketing out there... And also do mind when I say UCX II, I say UCX II. I can't speak on the DACs, UFX III and babyface... But to me a semi-flagship sounding this weak is not a good look.

In terms of me calling out say ESS or Cirrus is cuz I wouldn't be surprised if for example current ESS implementations in RME are much better 1.. 2. Cirrus because plenty of stupid cheap consumer electronics with those chips still sound okay. It might not be the chips themselves but clearly however is working on them might have certain association that makes them do on average a lil better or who knows it might even come down to basics of economies of scale. I think besides being linear there is the other factor imo of sounding clean and close to mass market hardware that sounds good.

tldr; If the song on a linear device sounds muddier or noisier than a freaking airpods pro2 you can't make any excuses about the engineering marvel of the unit's DA, it's just a fail. And I'm being precise with terms in this instance. I'm specifically referring to the characteristics of the performance of the audio and not the 'tone'. And yes ofc making a da for a standard interconnect is always harder than something like an integrated DA with the driver, but my point still stands.

I look forward to you posting test measurements and data  to support your subjective opinions .

He posted 'measurements' already here:

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=40178

They can't be more embarassing, though. For him.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

ramses wrote:

What is your background, if I may ask?

"quidiee" is the same person as "oiuoiuoiuoiuo".
I have moved his post about the "outdated sound" and all the replies from the old thread about ESS/AKM differences to this one.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: continuation of the previous rant over sound quality of UCX II

KaiS wrote:
john34 wrote:

Outdated sound, really?

Trolling BS, forget it.
This guy has no clue, never made a true level matched blind A/B to find out the differences are really hard to detect… etc.

Might even be a chatbot, I‘ve seen those several times lately, with equally unqualified comments.
No idea what they are out for - training rounds like a boxer with his sparring partner?

Chatbots really need training in the field.
So many companys using support chat robots (Hi I'm Bob your support...)
but they are total crap.
Izotope use a Loopback in their Chatbot sequence it loops after two steps.
I landed there recently because of the Audiolens thread.

These public forums with real people are ideal and for free for training.

We need to find out how to scare them until they run away...

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue