101 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-10-06 11:25:05)

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Re: Level mismatch solutions - fixed and variable attenuators

What does the signal chain look like and which components are involved?

I don't think a resistor in an attenuator will break, there are no high currents flowing through it. Whether this would result in maximum volume is something that someone who knows exactly how such attenuators are wired would have to answer.

If you don't want to place the attenuator at the ends because of a lack of strain relief, then I would just make sure to place the attenuator more towards the active monitor so that the unattenuated signal travels as much of the cable path as possible.

How long is the cable between the recording interface and the active monitor anyway? Probably less than 5 or even 3m. With such short cable lengths, I can't imagine there will be an audible difference. The higher signal levels in the studio area are designed so that cables can be up to 100m long.

I couldn't find a TRS adapter quickly. That's why I wanted to know exactly which devices are being used so I could see the connection options. If you can't find a TRS attenuator, you can also use TRS / XLR cables, unless you have invested in expensive cables or want to avoid these costs.

Another option, just In case you've already been thinking about the RME reference converters..

The most expensive, but feature wise probably the best solution could be to use one of the RME reference converters, which would offer additional interesting features with Auto Ref Level.

That's what I do, and so I can do without using attenuators. 4 reference levels and auto reflevel take care, that SNR and dynamic will be automatically kept on a higher level. You can view this Excel sheet to see what the effect of it:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … v004-xlsx/

The reference converters are connected digitally (ADAT, SPDIF or AES, it doesn't matter) and so the outputs can be set to 0dB. The devices reliably remember the last volume setting. In addition, the volume ramps up when headphones are plugged in and when switching between speakers and monitors. To be on the safe side, I have assigned mute all to an easily accessible button on the front, which you can reach without looking.
Those reference converters can easily be integrated into each setup if you have a digital output free:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … our-Setup/

No must have, only another option. Another reason why it would be useful to know your setup, to estimate whether such a device might be possible.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

102 Reply by vino (edited by vino 2024-10-06 16:50:33)

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Re: Level mismatch solutions - fixed and variable attenuators

ramses wrote:

What does the signal chain look like and which components are involved?

I don't think a resistor in an attenuator will break, there are no high currents flowing through it. Whether this would result in maximum volume is something that someone who knows exactly how such attenuators are wired would have to answer.

If you don't want to place the attenuator at the ends because of a lack of strain relief, then I would just make sure to place the attenuator more towards the active monitor so that the unattenuated signal travels as much of the cable path as possible.

How long is the cable between the recording interface and the active monitor anyway? Probably less than 5 or even 3m. With such short cable lengths, I can't imagine there will be an audible difference. The higher signal levels in the studio area are designed so that cables can be up to 100m long.

I couldn't find a TRS adapter quickly. That's why I wanted to know exactly which devices are being used so I could see the connection options. If you can't find a TRS attenuator, you can also use TRS / XLR cables, unless you have invested in expensive cables or want to avoid these costs.

Another option, just In case you've already been thinking about the RME reference converters..

The most expensive, but feature wise probably the best solution could be to use one of the RME reference converters, which would offer additional interesting features with Auto Ref Level.

That's what I do, and so I can do without using attenuators. 4 reference levels and auto reflevel take care, that SNR and dynamic will be automatically kept on a higher level. You can view this Excel sheet to see what the effect of it:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … v004-xlsx/

The reference converters are connected digitally (ADAT, SPDIF or AES, it doesn't matter) and so the outputs can be set to 0dB. The devices reliably remember the last volume setting. In addition, the volume ramps up when headphones are plugged in and when switching between speakers and monitors. To be on the safe side, I have assigned mute all to an easily accessible button on the front, which you can reach without looking.
Those reference converters can easily be integrated into each setup if you have a digital output free:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … our-Setup/

No must have, only another option. Another reason why it would be useful to know your setup, to estimate whether such a device might be possible.

Wow, thank you so much for the thorough answer. Appreciate that.

Well my "main" setup is a Babyface Pro FS (XLR out) with a pair of iLoud micros (RCA in). I have set the switch underneath the interface to +19db but the output is still "too loud". And just tried out the new iLoud micro PRO monitors (XLR in), which are almost unusable due to being so freaking loud.

My babyface is now on service, so I use a AXE I/O interface as a backup. That one has TRS out. That interface is unusable with the micro pros as I can't set a switch to +19db on that one. That was where I stumbled upon this post on the attenuators. And thought they might help, and also help the RME interface also.

Oh and I just use XLR to RCA with the micros (rme), XLR to XLR with the micro pros (rme), TRS to RCA micros (AXE I/O) and TRS to XLR micro pros (AXE I/O). Cables no longer than 1,5m. So hopefully an attenuator can be connected between two 1m cables? to avoid any train by putting it directly into the speaker input?

103 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-10-06 18:29:56)

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Re: Level mismatch solutions - fixed and variable attenuators

I think you are mistaken regarding +19 dBu setting, this is the reference level with the highest output volume.
You should use +4 dBu for a 15 dB lower output signal.

Your monitors have a volume pot, turn the volume down.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/twq6nib1axhgjybjc125p/2024-10-06-19_07_23-IK-Multimedia-iLoud-Micro-Monitor-Pro-Musikhaus-Thomann-Mozilla-Firefox.jpg?rlkey=kx1slwknyd5cu7ewoc8w21vlt&st=oaxjy9wq&dl=1

Set Babyface Pro to +4 dBu reflevel and now balance the volume of monitors and the output faders in TM FX.
Take care that the SW Playback fader for this submix are at 0dB and the volume of the audio player at 100%.
Slowly increase the volume of the HW output towards 0dB.
If needed turn the volume down at the active monitors.
Finally you should get a comfortably listening volume at 0dB fader position of your HW output / monitor submix.

Either keep it that way or increase the volume at your monitors to your maximum listening level and
finally decrease the level of the output fader in TM FX. This might be -15 or -20.

This you should save to every TM FX Snapshot so that you have a sane start volume.

In TotalMix FX preferences I would do the following settings, so that the Babyface Pro FS will be initialized with this sane default values, also volume settings:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f2zh3i82 … f&dl=1

This is from UFX III .. but maybe you have similar / same preferences, check ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

104 Reply by vino

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Re: Level mismatch solutions - fixed and variable attenuators

ramses wrote:

I think you are mistaken regarding +19 dBu setting, this is the reference level with the highest output volume.
You should use +4 dBu for a 15 dB lower output signal.

Your monitors have a volume pot, turn the volume down.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/twq6nib1axhgjybjc125p/2024-10-06-19_07_23-IK-Multimedia-iLoud-Micro-Monitor-Pro-Musikhaus-Thomann-Mozilla-Firefox.jpg?rlkey=kx1slwknyd5cu7ewoc8w21vlt&st=oaxjy9wq&dl=1


Oh, okay. I don't have it in front of me, so not 100% sure what it was. Then it may be set on +4, cus' it is set so the output got lower. Tried both of the "settings".

The monitor volumes are set to almost "infinite" on the back of the micros, so can't lower them anymore, unfortunately.

105 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-10-06 18:35:32)

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Re: Level mismatch solutions - fixed and variable attenuators

According to manual, infinite should mute, but maybe the manual is not accurate here.

As this is becoming very device / setup specific, perhaps you should open a dedicated thread for it.

I understand this thread to be more for the topic of volume mismatches and solutions "in general".
Different attenuators, etc...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

106 Reply by vino (edited by vino 2024-10-06 18:43:32)

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Re: Level mismatch solutions - fixed and variable attenuators

ramses wrote:

According to manual infinite should mute, but maybe the manual is not accurate here.
As this is becoming very device / setup specific maybe you should open a dedicated thread for it.
As this here is for volume mismatches and solutions "in general", different attenuators, etc...

That is correct. The "infinite" is "mute", but they are set just as low as can be before "infinite". And still too loud. You are right, I might have to ask elsewhere about it.

But back to the attenuator question. Would that be somewhat of a solution to the problem? As the monitors seems to be way to sensitive for my "setup". And, if I understod you correctly was it possible to connect it between cables? just to minimize possible strain on speaker connectors.

I'll have look if there is a TRS one too, or maybe as you said one could use different cables instead.

Maybe not ok to ask here, if so, sorry. But would the JTS Mic attenuator MA-123 work for both the RME interface and the AXE I/O.

Thansk you again for taking the time to read and answer to my "newbie" questions.

107 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-10-06 19:18:47)

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Re: Level mismatch solutions - fixed and variable attenuators

Does the AXE have balanced outputs? Which plugs are supported?
AXE FX III supports XLR outputs, BBF Pro FS as well, your monitors suport XLR.
I am confused why you want TRS plugs.
I regard XLR plugs as better as they usually lock on the device.

Please describe exactly which AXE FX you have, with URL to product and manual. Thanks.

Simply open a new thread and we can post references / URLs that it started here.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

108 Reply by vino

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Re: Level mismatch solutions - fixed and variable attenuators

ramses wrote:

Does the AXE have balanced outputs? Which plugs are supported?
AXE FX III supports XLR outputs, BBF Pro FS as well, your monitors suport XLR.
I am confused why you want TRS plugs.
I regard XLR plugs as better as they usually lock on the device.

Please describe exactly which AXE FX you have, with URL to product and manual. Thanks.

Simply open a new thread and we can post references / URLs that it started here.

Oh, I may have been somewhat vague. It's not an AXE FX it is the interface AXE I/O from IK Multimedia. It has balanced TRS output. That's why I thought maybe a TRS attenuator would be good.

https://g1.ikmultimedia.com/html/Manual … Manual.pdf

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Re: Level mismatch solutions - fixed and variable attenuators

Why don't you just use TRS to XLR cable to the attenuator and then XLR -> XLR to the monitors? You should already have the latter.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

110 Reply by vino

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Re: Level mismatch solutions - fixed and variable attenuators

ramses wrote:

Why don't you just use TRS to XLR cable to the attenuator and then XLR -> XLR to the monitors? You should already have the latter.

Was not sure it was "ok" to connect the attenuator between cables, but if that is the case, that is the way to go I can see smile.

Are the attenuators "compatible" with all interfaces or in this case the AXE I/O? Read that the "impedance are high enough for the RME output stages not to cause distortion". But don't understand if that varies much from interfaces or applies the same.


So should I start a thread about asking specific about the attenuators possibility of "breaking" or not? And in that case where do I do that smile.

111 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-10-06 21:57:28)

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Re: Level mismatch solutions - fixed and variable attenuators

vino wrote:
ramses wrote:

Why don't you just use TRS to XLR cable to the attenuator and then XLR -> XLR to the monitors? You should already have the latter.

Was not sure it was "ok" to connect the attenuator between cables, but if that is the case, that is the way to go I can see smile.

I think this won't make any big difference, try it out.
If you would connect a monitor controller, then it would also be in between ...

vino wrote:

Are the attenuators "compatible" with all interfaces or in this case the AXE I/O? Read that the "impedance are high enough for the RME output stages not to cause distortion". But don't understand if that varies much from interfaces or applies the same.

Should work with all line level outputs of recording interfaces. You could check manuals and compare.
For example, my UFX III has the same 150 ohm impedance like your AXE. Babyface has 300 Ohm.
Therefore I see no reason why it should not work with your AXE.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

112 Reply by vino

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Re: Level mismatch solutions - fixed and variable attenuators

ramses wrote:
vino wrote:
ramses wrote:

Why don't you just use TRS to XLR cable to the attenuator and then XLR -> XLR to the monitors? You should already have the latter.

Was not sure it was "ok" to connect the attenuator between cables, but if that is the case, that is the way to go I can see smile.

I think this won't make any big difference, try it out.
If you would connect a monitor controller, then it would also be in between ...

vino wrote:

Are the attenuators "compatible" with all interfaces or in this case the AXE I/O? Read that the "impedance are high enough for the RME output stages not to cause distortion". But don't understand if that varies much from interfaces or applies the same.

Should work with all line level outputs of recording interfaces. You could check manuals and compare.
For example, my UFX III has the same 150 ohm impedance like your AXE. Babyface has 300 Ohm.
Therefore I see no reason why it should not work with your AXE.


Thank you so much for all the answers. I'll have to test a pair of attenuators smile.

I have now posted my question about attenuators "breaking" in the Miscellaneous topic. Hope that was the right place.