1 Topic by parallel (edited by parallel 2024-10-15 05:48:14)

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Topic: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

My system seems to have collapsed after I started mucking around with TotalMix today; perhaps someone here could help.  It ran perfectly (well, almost, more on that later), for 7 years, until I felt the need to open TotalMix for the first time today and change settings. 

I think the first thing I need explained is... Do I even need to use TotalMix?  Humour me, and assume that I don't want or need any of its fancy routing and submixing.  Can I therefore ignore it, or does it need to run in the background as part of the driver? 

The concept of my system is that the computer with the RAYDAT card is basically like a 32-track tape machine.  I link the RAYDAT to 4 x blackface ADATs, and they are connected to a TASCAM M-600 32 channel mixing console.  The DAW software is Nuendo, and I have always configured it so that Ins and Outs are routed on a 1:1 basis - ADAT In Ch1 goes to Mono In 1, ADAT In Ch32 goes to Mono In 32;  Output 1 goes to ADAT OUT 1, Output 32 goes to ADAT OUT 32.  I could also route stereo files to stereo out pairs when required.  I mix in the analog domain on the console, either to 1/4" tape or DAT (or both simultaneously).  A setup like this is a fairly old-fashioned approach I concede, but it works fine for me and the type of music I record.   

So, since this is my need, do I have to use TotalMix?  I've managed to ignore it until today, and would like to keep ignoring it once I fix my problem.

And now to my problem.  Over the past few months, I noticed that Outputs 1 & 2 on ADAT 1 were low in level, in fact about half volume.  I assumed it was just worn out electronics on the ADAT, and today I got around to installing a replacement unit.  Then I discovered that the same problem continued.  I conducted a range of tests with test tone, and concluded it was not the ADAT unit, or the console, or any wiring.  The fault had to be either RAYDAT hardware related, or Software.  I looked at software first, which brought me to TotalMix.

After moving some faders, I was able to get the levels on ADAT Ch 1&2 back to normal, however my victory was short-lived as everything else seemed to turn to TotalShit, culminating in the software icon itself disappearing, and now no outputs from any channel at all. 

I'm going to reinstall the HDSP driver and have another crack at it, but if anyone could give me some ideas on getting back to the 1:1 chanel assignment functionality, that would be very much appreciated.

2 Reply by waedi (edited by waedi 2024-10-13 10:35:03)

  • waedi
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

parallel wrote:

My system seems to have collapsed after I started mucking around with TotalMix today; perhaps someone here could help.  It ran perfectly (well, almost, more on that later), for 7 years, until I felt the need to open TotalMix for the first time today and change settings. 

I think the first thing I need explained is... Do I even need to use TotalMix?  Humour me, and assume that I don't want or need any of its fancy routing and submixing.  Can I therefore ignore it, or does it need to run in the background as part of the driver? 

The concept of my system is that the computer with the RAYDAT card is basically like a 32-track tape machine.  I link the RAYDAT to 4 x blackface ADATs, and they are connected to a TASCAM M-600 32 channel mixing console.  The DAW software is Nuendo, and I have always configured it so that Ins and Outs are routed on a 1:1 basis - ADAT In Ch1 goes to Mono In 1, ADAT In Ch32 goes to Mono In 32;  Output 1 goes to ADAT OUT 1, Output 32 goes to ADAT OUT 32.  I could also route stereo files to stereo out pairs when required.  I mix in the analog domain on the console, either to 1/4" tape or DAT (or both simultaneously).  A setup like this is a fairly old-fashioned approach I concede, but it works fine for me and the type of music I record.   

So, since this is my need, do I have to use TotalMix?  I've managed to ignore it until today, and would like to keep ignoring it once I fix my problem.

Once your routing is done and all levels are adjusted, you can let it be and never touch again.
Totalmix runs in the background and you have time to focus on your work.

But you should not forget how it works and that it is working for you.

Totalmix is part of your audio interface and it is a great tool.

An Adat port can not worn out and get less loud, either it has music or nothing.

Totalmix is indeed the first place to look after the levels.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
  • Registered: 2024-10-13
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

Ah, I see...  it does need to run in the background.  It doesn't actually say that anywhere in the manual.  I'll have to try to set it up again then, in the 1:1 fashion I described.  Are there any presets to call upon that could achieve this?

  • Registered: 2024-10-13
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

Just in case any other dinosaurs are still using ADATs like me, I'll take the opportunity to remind you of monitoring via the DAC to avoid periodic converter dropouts.  It's a "hidden function"; Hold "Set Locate" then "All Input", the counter window should toggle between "DAC" and "IN".  Interestingly, I couldn't find this function on the Silverface ADATs or the FOSTEX RD-8 ADAT.

  • waedi
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

There is a special mode DAW-mode
Totalmix menu Otions / Operational mode

it routs all software playback channels directly to its hardware outputs.

Lets you play music out of the DAW to any output of the interface.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

6 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-10-13 11:17:33)

  • ramses
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

@parallel

TotalMix FX is always installed together with the driver. You can deduce from manual chapter 7.1 (about driver installation).
It mentions that after driver installation, you see the two icons for TotalMix FX and driver settings.

And such a recording interface needs a digital mixer software so that the needed routing can be configured.
And the needs for routing are very different.
Some people want to route everything over the DAW to have full routing control there.
Some people prefer to avoid latency for some audio flows and route inputs directly to outputs on the card.
And as there is no "one fits all" routing, you require a routing software.

TotalMix FX design is based on the fact, that finally every HW output might need a different routing.
So every HW output can have a submix of its own.
Hence the name "submix mode" which is one of TM FX main operation modes.
In submix mode you select a HW output and can then control the routing for this particular HW output.
Configuring or checking the routing for this HW Output is being done in a quite easy way.
You only need to watch of move the faders of
- the top row (HW inputs) or
- the middle row (SW playbacks, so to say "audio from the PC")

By this, you have the possibility either route an audio signal for monitoring directly from the HW inputs to the HW outputs with near-zero latency or to monitor the (possibly processed) audio signal from the DAW with the usual RTL (round trip latency, which becomes quite high depending on the buffersizes that you use).

This submix based routing design of TotalMix FX in the mixer view / in submix mode gives you full control of your monitoring mixes and other routing demands. And the middle row "SW Playback"s make it possible for you to use TM FX like a patch bay to decide from where to pick an audio signal before it will finally be routed to the HW Outputs (bottom row). Either from the inputs with near-zero latency (top row) or (possibly processed) from the DAW (middle row).

But you do not seem to need this flexibility, another nice solution for you could be "DAW mode".

If you would rather not use TotalMix FX and manage everything in the DAW, then you could try the operational mode
"DAW mode". Then TotalMix FX has only a 2-row design with HW inputs on top and HW Outputs at the Bottom
and you control everything in the DAW.

There is a 2nd option, to use TotalMix FX still in "Full mode" and to configure a routing which is the same as in DAW mode. There is a "Reset Mix" option that performs this, and you can configure it with 1 mouse click.
I would recommend performing a Total Reset first, so finally 2 mouse clicks:
Options -> Reset Mix -> Total Reset
Options -> Reset Mix ->Straight playback

This time you should save your workspace
a) in a TotalMix FX Snapshot
b) in a TotalMix FX Workspace file on your PC (a backup of routing and TM FX channel settings)
c) in a TotalMix FX Quick Workspace Select file (30 slots)

Especially the latter (c) is useful because then you can recall the first 8 settings with a key combination ALT-n.
So with TM FX window opened, you can restore everything from the saved workspace #1 (of 30) using ALT-1.

Regarding levels. Maybe due to a reset or default settings, it could be that two outputs for "Main Out" got a reduced output level of -10 dB (phones outputs -20 dB) because some people complained about too loud output levels for their active monitors. It is only a theory that you possibly restored old default settings accidentally, so that for this reason the output level for some channels changed.

Therefore .. Save your work in a TotalMix FX Snapshot.
And then the workspaces (including some more things as routing and levels) like suggested above.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2024-10-13
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

Thanks Waedi and Ramses.  I did see those reset options and operational modes, I did experiment with them but it didn't seem to work.  "Straight playback" seems to be a good option for me.  For now I will keep trying, but I haven't got it running yet.

8 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-10-13 12:26:01)

  • ramses
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

What does not work?

If I remember right you said that you are using the RayDAT card / Nuendo like a 32-track tape machine
to record the channels of your mixing console.

Can you see the metering of the recorded channels in TotalMix FX and in Nuendo?

I ask because receiving audio on the HW inputs is the 1st thing that needs to work
and it has nothing to do with routing in TotalMix FX. Audio from HW inputs is always passed to the application.
There I would start the troubleshooting.

If you do not see audio activity in TotalMix FX or in Nuendo coming in then something with the ADAT connections between your mixer and the RayDAT is wrong.

At the moment I assume the setup is something like this, but maybe you have also ADAT connections
from the RayDAT to the mixing console?

Mixing Console-ADAT1 OUT-------------->ADAT1 IN------RayDAT---PCIe---PC---Nuendo
             \   \   \--ADAT2 OUT-------------->ADAT2 IN---/
              \    \----ADAT3 OUT-------------->ADAT3 IN--/
               \-------ADAT4 OUT-------------->ADAT4 IN-/

Can you details your setup a little bit? How are the devices connected and how do you clock sync them?
Is the mixing console clock master and the RayDAT slave?
Can you pls provide a screenshot of the driver settings window?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

Ramses, in your diagram, TotalMix would sit between PC and Nuendo, right?

With respect to what is not working: nothing is working on playback.  No output at all.  It was working, but I must have been unwittingly setting up inappropriate submixes, because an output assigned to ADAT 1 would also appear on ADAT 5 for example.  It looked like it was grouped up in stereo pairs.  I'm going back into my studio now to have another go.

  • ramses
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

parallel wrote:

Ramses, in your diagram, TotalMix would sit between PC and Nuendo, right?

Similar to Nuendo TotalMix FX accesses the recording interface via the driver.
But not for recording and playback of audio, but for controlling certain aspects of the card.
You have two control programs:
- driver settings: perform the hardware related setup (buffer, input and output options, clock mode, input status)
- TM FX: routing, monitoring related, controling levels, ...

parallel wrote:

With respect to what is not working: nothing is working on playback.  No output at all.

What is your playback device and where is it connected to?
To RayDAT? Which HW Output on ADAT x/y?

parallel wrote:

It was working, but I must have been unwittingly setting up inappropriate submixes, because an output assigned to ADAT 1 would also appear on ADAT 5 for example. It looked like it was grouped up in stereo pairs.
I'm going back into my studio now to have another go.

Best the two channels as stereo channel.
All you need to do in submix mode is to select the particular HW output (possibly HW Output ADAT 1/2).

Then you will see from the fader positions of top and middle row, which channels route audio to this channel.
You can use on the right side at "Layout Presets" the little button "Sub".
Then you see only those HW inputs and SW Playback channels that route audio to the just selected HW Output.

Which HW Output is currently selected you see easily
- at the base of each channel, all HW inputs and SW playback channels show the selected HW output
- the HW output channel is "highlighted" by using a lighter grey tone.

If you want to see very quickly, which channels route audio into the selected submix, then simply press the button "Sub"
on the right side at Challel You can even make it easier for you by pressing the button "Sub" right side at channel groups.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

11 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-10-13 12:52:33)

  • ramses
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

What you could do additionally:
Use the Assign knob to assign the HW Stereo Output (where your monitors are connected to) to "Main Out".
By this, you move the HW output (where your monitors are connected to)
to the right side into the TM FX control room.
Then you can use TM FX control room features like "DIM" or "MONO" which can be useful.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

12 Reply by kd (edited by kd 2024-10-14 00:38:53)

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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

I experience things like this when the resolution between the RME device and the DAW changes or is no longer correct.
Then the number of channels also changes and then nothing is correct.
YOU must first check the settings to see if the set resolutions match.  Channel 1 to 1 would be DAW mode, there is no need for submixes, only in/out channels count there, what would be your "tape machine" o))
But if even symbols disappear, there could also be a configuration problem with the OS, i.e. reinstalling everything would be the simplest solution. Usually there is a combination of several sources of interference.
In DAW mode you don't actually need TotalMix to set anything but the hardware needs TotalMix because it is configured via it.

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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

"No output at all" is too unspecific. Is there anything in the playback channels in Totalmix? If not, something's misconfigured in your software. Otherwise, it seems to be in Totalmix. DAW mode is probably your best option if you don't want to deal with Totalmix at all.
A few details about the setup might be helpful. Can't even seem to see if it's a Mac or PC...

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

Hello all.
I played around with the settings in TotalMix and got it running again.  I used the "Reset Mix / Straight Playback" function and that seemed to work ok. All 32 channels of in and out seems to be good now.  (Computer is a PC).  So this whole adventure has taught me more about my system, but as I mentioned earlier, I expect to use TotalMix just in that 1:1 config, hopefully it will be "set and forget".  We can call this one 'case closed', thanks everyone for your contributions.

The RayDAT has been a fantastic interface, rock solid and powerful, I regularly mix with 32 tracks at 48/16 and it performs flawlessly. I'd like to add a Timecode card to it, I'm seriously thinking of upgrading from 1/2" 8-track tape to 16 or 24 track (spotted a good OTARI MTR80 in Sydney).

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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

parallel wrote:

I expect to use TotalMix just in that 1:1 config, hopefully it will be "set and forget".

That's what you get in DAW mode, try it out.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • ramses
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

If you should stay with TM FX full mode I propose that you save your workspace and also use Quick Workspace select.
Then you can come back to this state in a few seconds.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • mkok
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

I was originally going to use DAW mode but found out all the wonderful things TotalMix can do which are useful in My DAW and for other things.

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.
  • ramses
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Re: Do I even need to use TotalMix?

parallel wrote:

My system seems to have collapsed after I started mucking around with TotalMix today; ...

Besides DAW mode, this would have been of help for you for using full-mode.

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=40341
-> https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … nd-backup/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14