1 (edited by jwar1 2024-11-17 23:37:54)

Topic: How to connect a Kemper XLR out to Fireface UCX XLR MIC1, no line lvl

Hello,

I want to output my Kemper Profiler main out using TRS XLR to the XLR MIC1 input of my Fireface UCX but the input signal is clipping a lot !

In the totalmix i can't find any settings to switch MIC1/2 input to line level. (Kemper MAIN OUTPUT = XLR balanced, with ground lift, output level: XLR +4 dBu)

I've then lowered the Kemper main out volume around -10db to -15db and everything seems fine but i have some questions :

1 - Will using the XLR MIC 1 input with the above settings have any negative impact on the recorded sound quality ?

2 - What about using a XLR to Stereo TRS jack into MiC1 input instead of a XLR/XLR, will it give a different result and a different input level ?

3 - Are MIC1 & 2 Input preamps only designed for Microphones signals ?

4 - I also use the Kemper on my babyface pro fs, where it's hooked the same way (XLR to XLR) so again same questions 1 & 3 above.

Thanks for your help.

2 (edited by waedi 2024-11-18 02:22:37)

Re: How to connect a Kemper XLR out to Fireface UCX XLR MIC1, no line lvl

1 no negative effect on the sound quality
2 Yes the level is lowered by 11dB, therefore yes, you should use TRS cable here to connect the Kemper, not XLR-cable.
3 the preamps are designed for Microphone-LEVEL signals and also for line level.

Make sure in Totalmix input channel Mic 1 the input gain is fully closed zero. Use the gain knob carefully to ramp-up your signal when really needed.

From page 38 user manual :

The two combo jacks also allow for the usage of mono and stereo TRS jacks. The TRS inputs
have a fixed level attenuation of 11 dB. Based on the adjustable amplification from +0 dB up to
+65 dB, the sensitivity is +21 dBu down to –44 dBu, referenced to full scale of the AD-converter.
Therefore the TRS inputs are true full level Line inputs, and the unit can also be used as Line
amplifier.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: How to connect a Kemper XLR out to Fireface UCX XLR MIC1, no line lvl

Alternatively you connect the Kemper with SPDIF to the UCX. Then you have the optimal connection.
The Kemper is completely digital, so you have less conversions.

Regards,
Audio AG Support

4 (edited by jwar1 2024-11-18 17:59:42)

Re: How to connect a Kemper XLR out to Fireface UCX XLR MIC1, no line lvl

Audio AG Support wrote:

Alternatively you connect the Kemper with SPDIF to the UCX. Then you have the optimal connection.
The Kemper is completely digital, so you have less conversions.

I've used Spdif for several years, there's 9 samples of latency between the DI (unprocessed) and the STACK (processed) side of the SPDIF signal. On top of that, the reamp loop adds around 500 samples (10ms) of latency, which bring various phase issues that have to be compensated.

In SPDIF mode, the DI output signal is too hot. In analog mode you can choose several DI output modes.

After tedious testings, for some reason, using analog output into the Fireface gives a slightly better sound, or should i say a more suitable and satisfying sound to my ears (Slightly more silky high end, slightly more tight and rounder low end). And of course, no reamp latency and no phase issue between the orignal stack processed signal and the reamped one.

Trust me, there's NO WAY i'll ever return to SPDIF using this device. tongue

I ran the same test using a VIRUS TI 2 keyboard with native Asio USB audio VS TRS jack analog output to fireface input. The sound is silghtly different, and more satisfying to my ears.

I have no explanation, nor i am trying to launch any debate. I swear there's a difference, as tiny it is, it is still very satisfying to me. smile

5 (edited by waedi 2024-11-18 19:22:04)

Re: How to connect a Kemper XLR out to Fireface UCX XLR MIC1, no line lvl

Lot of wordsalad now ?
A DI signal (at least to me) means direct input signal. What means DI output signal ?
If you want to record DI then connect the guitar direct to the interface and record the DI signal from the guitar.
Now that the Kemper has SPDIF output of course this is the optimum signal.
Else you have more gain or more distortion from cheap converters.

And then the reamp thing wich is nonsense.
What is reamping phase issue or latency ?
You record the signal from the Kemper, right ?
Are you sending that signal back at the same time for more processing and record a second signal and listen both at the same time or something like that ?
By reamping thru the Kemper, latency has no meaning, you have to shift the recorded material to the right place.

You may explain what you are doing.
Better just record the SPDIf.
Same for the Virus, the digital signal thru USB is the pure signal, from the analog output it can have some additional gain from the master-out.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

6 (edited by jwar1 2024-11-19 00:20:38)

Re: How to connect a Kemper XLR out to Fireface UCX XLR MIC1, no line lvl

I don't see the point in being condescending and rude.

A DI signal (at least to me) means direct input signal. What means DI output signal ?

On the kemper the SPDIF DI out or the analog DI output carry the unprocessed signal straight from the guitar.

When you connect the kemper using SPDIF the signal carries the D.I raw unprocessed signal on the right and the processed signal on the left. You then get your processed take and the unprocessed signal on separate tracks.

At 48khz/24bits there's a slight latency of 9 samples between the two signals, the processed signal has a slight latency due to the kemper internal processing time.

And then the reamp thing wich is nonsense. What is reamping phase issue or latency ?

About reamping : There will always be a "roundtrip delay" for the way from DAW to Kemper and back. But most DAWs do have tools on board to compensate this as it is absolutely necessary to avoid phasing issues. At 48khz / 24 bits there is a latency roughly around 10ms or 500 samples.

In rock music layering 2 differents guitar sounds to get a more consistent rythm guitar tone is almost a common rule. It's commonly used for solo sounds too...

So when you reamp your orignal DI take, the result is not aligned / in phase with your first original processed take. Unless you compensate for the reamp latency by using the kemper as an outboard gear / external effect in your daw. Your daw will then send a sample to the " external effect " and measure the time it takes to come back thus detecting the latency and adding compensation accordingly.

A second way to do it : You could ignore the first original take and reamp the DI a second time with the same sound / patch used in the original and both reamps would then be aligned in this case. But there are lot's of different takes and sounds, this is a huge time loss.

A third way : You record the way you want, then using plugins like InPhase you can align every tracks and then avoid phase issues.
You can even align everything by hand using phase inversion on one of the track and moving the second until they almost cancel each other.

If you want to record DI then connect the guitar direct to the interface and record the DI signal from the guitar.

Playing guitar is all about finger control, you can't predict how a simulated amp/hp will react to the way you play unless you play and record the direct processed signal. This is why you record both the DI and the processed sound a the same time.

7 (edited by waedi 2024-11-19 01:37:48)

Re: How to connect a Kemper XLR out to Fireface UCX XLR MIC1, no line lvl

Apologize for being rude it was not my intention.
It was because you refused the post 3.
As you know latency happens everywhere, a little in the Kemper and a lot thru the DAW.
The guitarist needs a good sound for playing good, that's true.
I did it this way : Guitar into the interface, in the DAW a track with an ampsim (one with low latency), direct monitoring of this track to the guitarist headphone for monitoring, the latency is just ok, recorded the guitar DI signal and rendered thru the right ampsim at the end.

We used Reaper and Babyface, the guitarist was happy.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

8 (edited by jwar1 2024-11-19 01:56:38)

Re: How to connect a Kemper XLR out to Fireface UCX XLR MIC1, no line lvl

Apologize for being rude it was not my intention.

No offense taken smile
Thanks anyway for the valuable help.

It was because you refused the post 3.

I didn't want it to sound like a refusal.
In fact i used the Kemper with SPDIF for a lots of years.
Going away from SPDIF to traditional analog TRS / TS connexion between the kemper and the Fireface was also for convenience :
- It gives me more control over the " DI " signal. In analog mode you have 3 different DI settings unavailable to the SPDIF DI output mode which tends to be realy hot.
Because of that, back then while reamping i had to lower the recorded DI track volume, it was clipping the kemper input, i had to tweak the volume until getting the amount of gain and reach by ears the original sound of the kemper patches we made from scratches.
- We ran several test using different audio interfaces (RME, Antelope and UAD) and the same kemper patches, for some reasons the " analogue cables way " added a little something very satisfying to the sound while comparing to the SPDIF counterparts at the same volume.
Maybe preamps and converters on the above interfaces degrade the sound in some way which have some unexpected impact and/or add some unexpected color ? I have absolutely no idea.
We then did the same tests with a Virus TI 2 Keyboard and got the exact same feeling.

It's all subjective and it might be beyond logical, i realy don't want to sound stubborn or anything but we were all unanimous about the results. I have no explanation, i am sorry for that.

(If i find some time tomorrow or later, i'll upload some samples somewhere so you can listen to the difference.)

Re: How to connect a Kemper XLR out to Fireface UCX XLR MIC1, no line lvl

Analog outputs of audio interfaces are line level outputs and inputs of guitar equipments are guitar-level inputs.
The line signal is obvious too hot and needs attenuation.
A tiny fraction more volume of the signal is what we feel as a better signal, I guess in your rehearsal there was a tiny difference in the monitoring when comparing the SPDIF signal to the analog recorded one.

The question in the beginning of the thread about the input on the UCX is no longer an issue, right ?
Then we can close this discussion about general homerecording.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue