1 Topic by maartenl945 (edited by maartenl945 2024-11-15 13:13:12)

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Topic: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

Hi,

I’m currently using an RME HDSP AES card in my PC connected to an ADI-8 DS Mk iii converter which is working great. I’m now thinking about adding an ADI-2 DAC FS for its headphone pre-amp and ability to add Harman corrective EQ and crossfeed, and reference quality conversion for playback on my monitors.

I am just wondering how they can be connected and what this would look like in Total Mix. Any tips or experience with this setup are greatly appreciated!

Regards,
Maarten

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-11-15 12:19:42)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

Proper clock sync via AES .. PCIe card clock master, ADI-2 Pro Slave via AES in, wc not needed.

1. Connect via AES ...
2. In TM FX control room assign Main Out  to the particular AES output.
3. TM FX: configure your preferred submix for Main Out.

ADI-2 Pro: use preamp mode (from memory)
-
- connect to PC via USB to make it manageable via ADI-2 Remote
- install MADIface driver
- upgrade to the latest firmware
- Manage over display or ADI-2 Remote

How to integrate ADI-2 Pro into your setup, see my blog:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … our-Setup/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

No point connecting the converters to each other, connect both to the card individually and assign channels in the DAW and Totalmix accordingly.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

4 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-11-15 13:15:08)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

RME Support wrote:

No point connecting the converters to each other, connect both to the card individually and assign channels in the DAW and Totalmix accordingly.

Do you mean me? That was not my proposal / intention.

I would - like you - connect this way:

PC---PCIe----HDSPe AES--AES x/y----ADI-8
|                                 \---AES x/y----ADI-2 Pro FS
| USB                                                      |
|                                                             | For remote control (ADI-2 Remote) and Firmware upgrades
+------------------------------------------------+

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

5 Reply by maartenl945 (edited by maartenl945 2024-11-15 13:19:23)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

ramses wrote:

Proper clock sync via AES .. PCIe card clock master, ADI-2 Pro Slave via AES in, wc not needed.

1. Connect via AES ...
2. In TM FX control room assign Main Out  to the particular AES output.
3. TM FX: configure your preferred submix for Main Out.

ADI-2 Pro: use preamp mode (from memory)
-
- connect to PC via USB to make it manageable via ADI-2 Remote
- install MADIface driver
- upgrade to the latest firmware
- Manage over display or ADI-2 Remote

How to integrate ADI-2 Pro into your setup, see my blog:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … our-Setup/

Hi thanks for your reply but the ADI-2 DAC FS does not have AES in I think? Maybe you were missled by the topic title so I now changed it. I did say it in the message already. I’ll check out your blog though.

Maarten

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

You are right, I misread and kept it then wrong in my mind.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

RME Support wrote:

No point connecting the converters to each other, connect both to the card individually and assign channels in the DAW and Totalmix accordingly.

Thanks for your reply. The ADI-2 DAC FS cannot be directly connected to the AES card I believe. So it would have to go via the ADI-8 I would think. Probably via ADAT? Just unsure about the options to setup for that and what it would bring me in Total Mix.

8 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-11-15 13:23:36)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

Well you would get the signal straight to the ADI-2 DAC FS and then you would use the volume control of the ADI-2 DAC FS anyway.

I assume that the first two channels of the ADAT stream would be used by the ADI-2 DAC FS.

So you most likely have to use the first two AES channels of the HDSPe as Main Out and these two channels could perhaps be routed to the ADAT output, details see manual.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

ramses wrote:

Well you would get the signal straight to the ADI-2 DAC FS and then you would use the volume control of the ADI-2 DAC FS anyway.

I assume that the first two channels of the ADAT stream would be used by the ADI-2 DAC FS.

So you most likely have to use the first two AES channels of the HDSPe as Main Out and these two channels could perhaps be routed to the ADAT output, details see manual.

That’s was my thinking yes and I am already using AES1+2 as my main outs so that would work. If just a copy of that would be used by the ADI-2. I’ll need to further check the manuals indeed. Was just wondering whether anybody had any experience with this setup and what to take care of/look out for, etc.

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

Do you have the devices already there? Should not take too long to try it out.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

11 Reply by maartenl945 (edited by maartenl945 2024-11-15 15:38:29)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

ramses wrote:

Do you have the devices already there? Should not take too long to try it out.

I have been using the AES card and ADI-8 for years, but now asking these questions to see if I want to add the ADI-2 DAC FS wink

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

The pro version would give you more flexibility, also useful features like AD, SRC, routing modes, two DA converters, the possibility to connect two phones or balanced phones or to run monitor and headphones in parallel.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

maartenl945 wrote:

Thanks for your reply. The ADI-2 DAC FS cannot be directly connected to the AES card I believe. So it would have to go via the ADI-8 I would think. Probably via ADAT? Just unsure about the options to setup for that and what it would bring me in Total Mix.

The SPDIF input of the DAC is AES/EBU compatible, you just need a suitable cable. You can't selectively route individual channels from AES to ADAT on the ADI-8, much less with Totalmix.

That said, the ADI-8's patch mode will in fact allow you to send AES in to ADAT out, which can then go to the ADI-2, but only for all 8 channels (of which two will be used by the ADI-2). You will thus be able to send AES to ADAT while using AD and DA via AES....

But direct connection to AES is probably more useful.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

14 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-11-15 17:07:58)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

OK, I do not have a complete overlook on what‘s already written here.

Still, just a little hint that might solve the whole thing I guess:

ADI-2 DAC‘s Coax In can take an AES Digital signal, no problem.
Up to at least 5 meters length a standard fitting adapter, XLRf to RCA will do, nothing else needed, not even 110 or 75 Ohm cable.
The adapter’s cable should preferably be balanced, not coax, see (*1).

If the additional ground connection causes a ground/hum loop (might happen), simply cutting the screen on the RCA side will solve that.


(*1) REMARK:

Opposed to analog interfacing, the best AES to RCA pinout is:
XLR 1 –> screen –> X (RCA not connected)
XLR 2 –> wire1 – > RCA tip
XLR 3 –> wire2 – > RCA case

On analog cables screen is connected to both XLR 1 and RCA case.
This does work too with digital, but the additional ground connection can introduce hum by building a ground loop.

If the adapter is built with balanced cable, cutting the screen on the RCA side solves this and usually is a simple task.

With coax cable cutting the screen on either side is no option.
Sometimes it’s possible to cut the link between screen and XLR pin 1, while leaving XLR 3 with screen connected.
This would work too, specifically for short cable legth.

KaiS's Website

15 Reply by maartenl945 (edited by maartenl945 2024-11-15 17:42:57)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

ramses wrote:

The pro version would give you more flexibility, also useful features like AD, SRC, routing modes, two DA converters, the possibility to connect two phones or balanced phones or to run monitor and headphones in parallel.

Thanks for that info. You are talking about the ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition then I assume?
I shortly looked at that one as well, but it was quite a step up in price and I wasn't really in need for an ADC as well at this time.
I was also kind of intrigued by the special IEM output of the ADI-2 DAC FS.

However, I wasn't aware that the ADI-2 DAC FS could not do speakers AND headphones at the same time. Would be kind of annoying to have to switch that device every time I want to switch from speakers to headphones. Because I typically do any switching on my monitor controller (like mute or select speakers e.g.).

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

RME Support wrote:
maartenl945 wrote:

Thanks for your reply. The ADI-2 DAC FS cannot be directly connected to the AES card I believe. So it would have to go via the ADI-8 I would think. Probably via ADAT? Just unsure about the options to setup for that and what it would bring me in Total Mix.

The SPDIF input of the DAC is AES/EBU compatible, you just need a suitable cable. You can't selectively route individual channels from AES to ADAT on the ADI-8, much less with Totalmix.

That said, the ADI-8's patch mode will in fact allow you to send AES in to ADAT out, which can then go to the ADI-2, but only for all 8 channels (of which two will be used by the ADI-2). You will thus be able to send AES to ADAT while using AD and DA via AES....

But direct connection to AES is probably more useful.

Thanks for your reply. Are you saying that I could connect an AES out from my HDSP AES card to the coax input of the ADI-2 DAC FS? I was not aware of that. Need to look into which cables I would need for that then. Because initially I was indeed thinking of using a duplicate of the AES1+2 I'm sending to the AD-8 via the ADAT patch mode, to the optical input of the ADI-2.

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

KaiS wrote:

OK, I do not have a complete overlook on what‘s already written here.

Still, just a little hint that might solve the whole thing I guess:

ADI-2 DAC‘s Coax In can take an AES Digital signal, no problem.
Up to at least 5 meters length a standard fitting adapter, XLRf to RCA will do, nothing else needed, not even 110 or 75 Ohm cable.
The adapter’s cable should preferably be balanced, not coax, see (*1).

If the additional ground connection causes a ground/hum loop (might happen), simply cutting the screen on the RCA side will solve that.


(*1) REMARK:

Opposed to analog interfacing, the best AES to RCA pinout is:
XLR 1 –> screen –> X (RCA not connected)
XLR 2 –> wire1 – > RCA tip
XLR 3 –> wire2 – > RCA case

On analog cables screen is connected to both XLR 1 and RCA case.
This does work too with digital, but the additional ground connection can introduce hum by building a ground loop.

If the adapter is built with balanced cable, cutting the screen on the RCA side solves this and usually is a simple task.

With coax cable cutting the screen on either side is no option.
Sometimes it’s possible to cut the link between screen and XLR pin 1, while leaving XLR 3 with screen connected.
This would work too, specifically for short cable legth.

Interesting, you just came up with the same answer as RME support and are more specific on the cabling. I wonder if I could order a cable at Thomann like that. My soldering iron has not been used for a while wink.

18 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-11-15 18:15:46)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

maartenl945 wrote:

…My soldering iron has not been used for a while wink.

If you have one, and have the parts, use it.
XLR and RCA soldering is no rocket science, more like the basics.

KaiS's Website

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

maartenl945 wrote:
ramses wrote:

The pro version would give you more flexibility, also useful features like AD, SRC, routing modes, two DA converters, the possibility to connect two phones or balanced phones or to run monitor and headphones in parallel.

Thanks for that info. You are talking about the ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition then I assume?
I shortly looked at that one as well, but it was quite a step up in price and I wasn't really in need for an ADC as well at this time.
I was also kind of intrigued by the special IEM output of the ADI-2 DAC FS.

However, I wasn't aware that the ADI-2 DAC FS could not do speakers AND headphones at the same time. Would be kind of annoying to have to switch that device every time I want to switch from speakers to headphones. Because I typically do any switching on my monitor controller (like mute or select speakers e.g.).

Maybe cross check with manual, RME or KaiS.
This was from memory.
I know that only one DA chip is in there, so there were a few restrictions compared to the Pro model.
Sorry, I do not have the time at the moment to investigate on this topic.

Also worth to know that the ADI-2 Pro (FS R BE) has reference levels found in the studio, where the ADI-2 DAC FS has slightly different ref levels and cinch outputs with even less output for HiFi (but unbalanced as well).

For studio the ADI-2 DAC FS would of course be sufficient as well, but I regard the Pro as the better suited more round product, finally topped by the additional features of the ADI-2/4 Pro SE.

If you want take a look at this sticky posting here:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=32506

Also interesting is this Excel that I put together so that you see the different volume / reference levels of all models.
This gives you also a good overview about the feature auto ref level, how large those ranges are.
For the ADI-2/4 Pro SE largest because of the even 5 ref levels (1 more) that it supports:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … v004-xlsx/

And some more information about ADI-2 DAC vs Pro here:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … ses-EN-DE/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

ramses wrote:
maartenl945 wrote:
ramses wrote:

The pro version would give you more flexibility, also useful features like AD, SRC, routing modes, two DA converters, the possibility to connect two phones or balanced phones or to run monitor and headphones in parallel.

Thanks for that info. You are talking about the ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition then I assume?
I shortly looked at that one as well, but it was quite a step up in price and I wasn't really in need for an ADC as well at this time.
I was also kind of intrigued by the special IEM output of the ADI-2 DAC FS.

However, I wasn't aware that the ADI-2 DAC FS could not do speakers AND headphones at the same time. Would be kind of annoying to have to switch that device every time I want to switch from speakers to headphones. Because I typically do any switching on my monitor controller (like mute or select speakers e.g.).

Maybe cross check with manual, RME or KaiS.
This was from memory.
I know that only one DA chip is in there, so there were a few restrictions compared to the Pro model.
Sorry, I do not have the time at the moment to investigate on this topic.

Also worth to know that the ADI-2 Pro (FS R BE) has reference levels found in the studio, where the ADI-2 DAC FS has slightly different ref levels and cinch outputs with even less output for HiFi (but unbalanced as well).

For studio the ADI-2 DAC FS would of course be sufficient as well, but I regard the Pro as the better suited more round product, finally topped by the additional features of the ADI-2/4 Pro SE.

If you want take a look at this sticky posting here:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=32506

Also interesting is this Excel that I put together so that you see the different volume / reference levels of all models.
This gives you also a good overview about the feature auto ref level, how large those ranges are.
For the ADI-2/4 Pro SE largest because of the even 5 ref levels (1 more) that it supports:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … v004-xlsx/

And some more information about ADI-2 DAC vs Pro here:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … ses-EN-DE/

Thanks very much for all that info. I will have a look.

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

On ADI-2 DAC speakers and headphones can stay connected at the same time.
Switching between both works by pushing the Volume dial for 1/2 second, a button on the IR remote and the Remote App.

Each output has it’s own full set of parameters, i.e. different volume, EQ, crossfeed, etc.

The only thing:
You can’t run both at the same time (with individual settings), but this doesn’t make sense anyway, as you cannot listen to both at the same time either smile


Finally: buying cheap (not exactly true here) means buying twice - you should seriously consider ADI-2 Pro if there’s a chance you might need it’s extras in the future.

KaiS's Website

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

KaiS wrote:

On ADI-2 DAC speakers and headphones can stay connected at the same time.
Switching between both works by pushing the Volume dial for 1/2 second, a button on the IR remote and the Remote App.

Each output has it’s own full set of parameters, i.e. different volume, EQ, crossfeed, etc.

The only thing:
You can’t run both at the same time (with individual settings), but this doesn’t make sense anyway, as you cannot listen to both at the same time either smile


Finally: buying cheap (not exactly true here) means buying twice - you should seriously consider ADI-2 Pro if there’s a chance you might need it’s extras in the future.

Thanks for the info. I will consider the Pro.

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

Ok, I ordered an ADI-2 Pro today.

24 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-11-16 23:29:01)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

Congratulations, I think that's a good decision. If there are any questions about the implementation, please feel free to ask.
Otherwise, just tell how it went.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

ramses wrote:

Congratulations, I think that's a good decision. If there are any questions about the implementation, please feel free to ask.
Otherwise, just tell how it went.

I will and thanks to everyone for the help and advice!

26 Reply by maartenl945 (edited by maartenl945 2024-11-23 12:13:01)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

Ok I received the RME ADI-2 Pro FS R BE along with another AES breakout cable yesterday, updated to the latest firmware and connected the DAC outputs to one of my free monitor controller inputs to have a quick test. So I could easily switch between the ADI-8 DS Mark iii outputs and the ADI-2 outputs.

I was very surprised at how big the difference in sound was actually. It was huge! So much so that I was thinking the ADI-8 must be broken or something even though I've used those outputs to my monitors for years.
I did have to redo the calibration with SoundID reference for this combination of DAC and monitors (Adam A8H) because the existing calibration profile did not make sense on the ADI-2 but after that it sounded gorgeous.

The ability to have a corrective headphone profile in the ADI-2 along with the crossfeed option is also very convenient and sounding great. This was the initial reason I started looking at the ADI-2.

I will be exploring the ADC side later. I wonder whether that difference is as big as the DAC side. Can't imagine.

I will be posting an experience video on my YouTube channel when I've explored some more.

Thanks again for all the help here!

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

Nice to hear and much fun discovering your new device and setup.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

28 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-11-23 22:03:41)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

maartenl945 wrote:

… I was very surprised at how big the difference in sound was actually. It was huge! So much so that I was thinking the ADI-8 must be broken or something…

This was very likely a difference in listening level, TotalMix or other settings, i.e. EQ or the mentioned profile.

DACs don’t sound night and day apart.

Not to say that ADI-2 doesn’t sound good smile

KaiS's Website

29 Reply by maartenl945 (edited by maartenl945 2024-11-24 23:06:48)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

KaiS wrote:
maartenl945 wrote:

… I was very surprised at how big the difference in sound was actually. It was huge! So much so that I was thinking the ADI-8 must be broken or something…

This was very likely a difference in listening level, TotalMix or other settings, i.e. EQ or the mentioned profile.

DACs don’t sound night and day apart.

Not to say that ADI-2 doesn’t sound good smile

Hi KaiS, thanks for your remark. Well it was not the listening level. I do wonder now whether the ADI-8 is maybe not just broken. There's quite a loss of high end in comparison from the DA conversion in the ADI-8. it also happens when I'm just connecting DAC1+2 outputs to ADC1+2 inputs on the ADI-8 (as a transparent external effect in Cubase e.g.). There's a significant loss of high-end. And not just on those two outputs, but all 8 of them.

I also compared recordings on the ADI-8 inputs to recordings on the ADI-2 inputs now, and they are very close. So the ADI-8 ADCs seem fine, but the DACs may have a problem.

I think I may have run into this problem again, which I had forgotten about: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=22733

30 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-11-24 23:20:22)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

How is ADI-2 Pro connected / getting it’s signal?

Not too likely that all 8 channels of ADI-8 are broken.
Specially it seems it‘s digital outs carry the same problem.

Have a close look into TotalMix for RME HDSP AES, and other settings:

• Any EQ/hi cut filter active?

• Deemphasis switched on (if this setting exists)?
This would be a strong, specially shaped hi-cut EQ.

KaiS's Website

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

KaiS wrote:

How is ADI-2 Pro connected / getting it’s signal?

Not too likely that all 8 channels of ADI-8 are broken.
Specially it seems it‘s digital outs carry the same problem.

Have a close look into TotalMix for RME HDSP AES, and other settings:

• Any EQ/hi cut filter active?

• Deemphasis switched on (if this setting exists)?
This would be a strong, specially shaped hi-cut EQ.

The ADI-2 gets its signal via AES9+10, AES1 - 8 are in use by the ADI-8.

I don't have any FX in TotalMix for this hardware so I cannot imagine it is a wrong setting there.
Frankly I think this is playing up again, which I had forgotten about by now: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=22733
Searched for the issue on the forum and found my own thread wink. Never really got to the bottom of that because it did not seem to occur anymore. But now it does again and the work-around is still the same: Startup the ADI-8 before the PC and the problem does not occur. And yes in that case, the ADI-2 and ADI-8 DACs sound much more alike.

32 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-11-25 17:13:52)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

As assumed, it seems the de-emphasis has been activated in ADI-8 DS.

Interesting that the ADI-8 DS MK III can do this at all, most current DA-converters ignore de-emphasis.

In AES (professional) and SPDIF format unfortunately some transferred status bits (C-channel) have different meaning:
The SPDIF SCM (serial copy management) bits overlap with the AES pre-emphasis bits.
Therefore it’s important to set the “professional” flag in HDSP AES.


You can check if you can provoke the frequency response error by unchecking “professional” in HDSP AES.


ADI-2 has the de-emphasis-option too:
I/O / xx Output / Settings / De-Emphasis: Auto, ON, OFF

Default is Auto, so ADI-2 might even be affected if you are using the AES (XLR digital) input, but NOT if the SPDIF/Coax input is used.

The de-emphasis cuts the treble by about 10 dB, this should be very noticeable:
https://archiv.rme-audio.de/en/support/techinfo/tms.php
https://archiv.rme-audio.de/images/techinfo/emphasis.gif

KaiS's Website

  • Registered: 2008-01-31
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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

KaiS wrote:

As assumed, it seems the de-emphasis has been activated in ADI-8 DS.

Interesting that the ADI-8 DS MK III can do this at all, most current DA-converters ignore de-emphasis.

In AES (professional) and SPDIF format unfortunately some transferred status bits (C-channel) have different meaning:
The SPDIF SCM (serial copy management) bits overlap with the AES pre-emphasis bits.
Therefore it’s important to set the “professional” flag in HDSP AES.


You can check if you can provoke the frequency response error by unchecking “professional” in HDSP AES.


ADI-2 has the de-emphasis-option too:
I/O / xx Output / Settings / De-Emphasis: Auto, ON, OFF

Default is Auto, so ADI-2 might even be affected if you are using the AES (XLR digital) input, but NOT if the SPDIF/Coax input is used.

The de-emphasis cuts the treble by about 10 dB, this should be very noticeable:
https://archiv.rme-audio.de/en/support/techinfo/tms.php
https://archiv.rme-audio.de/images/techinfo/emphasis.gif

Thanks for that info. The professional flag was mentioned by Matthias at the time as well, but never really knew whether that was a solution, as I could not reproduce it anymore even before enabling professional mode. 

Now I DID notice yesterday that that flag was no longer set, and I already enabled it again when I found the old thread. So I'll check whether that solves anything now.

When I noticed the big difference between ADI-2 and ADI-8 DAC, if it was this, only ADI-8 was affected, even though the ADI-2 was set to auto for de-emphasis (I just checked).

Anyway, I'll report back when I have a definite conclusion.

  • Registered: 2008-01-31
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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

Unfortunately, the 'Professional' setting does not help.

I get a high cut filter on all ADI-8 outputs when I start up my PC with HDSP AES before starting up the ADI-8.
I can then get rid of it by switching to a higher sample (e.g. 96K) and then back to 48K which is my default.

If I start up the ADI-8 first, I do not get this.

In both situations, the ADI-2 Pro outputs are fine, no high cut.

Any further ideas are appreciated,
Maarten

35 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-11-26 23:43:53)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

As the problem seems to someway be related to clock / sample rate:

Try to use BNC Wordclock from HDSP AES WC out to ADI-8 DS Mk III WC in, and configure ADI-8 accordingly.

This could be considered as a workaround (if it does the trick), not a fix.

KaiS's Website

  • Registered: 2008-01-31
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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

KaiS wrote:

As the problem seems to someway be related to clock / sample rate:

Try to use BNC Wordclock from HDSP AES WC out to ADI-8 DS Mk III WC in, and configure ADI-8 accordingly.

This could be considered as a workaround (if it does the trick), not a fix.

Thanks for the suggestion, I guess it's a less error prone workaround compared to remembering to always turn on the ADI-8 first.
I'll give it a go once I have a suitable WC cable and assuming I can keep using AES as clock on the ADI-2 Pro at the same time.

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

Can you measure whether the phenomenon is consistent with the deemphasis response?

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • Registered: 2008-01-31
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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

RME Support wrote:

Can you measure whether the phenomenon is consistent with the deemphasis response?

Hi, yes the behavior has been consistent over the past week. Not sure what you want me to measure exactly.

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

The frequency response... Is the change to the high frequency response the same as the one caused by deemphasis?

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

RME Support wrote:

The frequency response... Is the change to the high frequency response the same as the one caused by deemphasis?

I measured the soundcard calibration profile of the ADI-8DS outputs with REW in both situations:

1 - When everything sounds good and I've started up the ADI-8DS before starting up the PC

https://pbase.com/maartenl945/image/175092824

2 - When there is attenuation of the high frequencies (I've started up the ADI-8DS after starting up the PC:

https://pbase.com/maartenl945/image/175092825

While measuring situation 2, REW also mentioned the following during measuring:

https://pbase.com/maartenl945/image/175092828

Let me know if you need anymore info. I also have the calibration files of both measurements for example.

Regards,
Maarten

41 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-12-07 22:48:29)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

Could you please rescale the 2nd plot so that the 20 kHz level value is still visible?!

What is visible complies with the mentioned de-emphasis curve.

The message hints to a clock-locking error that might be solved (or not) by a separate BNC Wordclock sync.
There’s a good chance it does, as BNC WCLK is a largely independent clocking path and simpler to handle than AES’s (bit strangely) embedded clock.


One thing’s for sure:
Your ADI-8 MK DS III is either slightly broken or the model version has a bug.

KaiS's Website

42 Reply by maartenl945 (edited by maartenl945 2024-12-11 20:10:52)

  • Registered: 2008-01-31
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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

KaiS wrote:

Could you please rescale the 2nd plot so that the 20 kHz level value is still visible?!

What is visible complies with the mentioned de-emphasis curve.

The message hints to a clock-locking error that might be solved (or not) by a separate BNC Wordclock sync.
There’s a good chance it does, as BNC WCLK is a largely independent clocking path and simpler to handle than AES’s (bit strangely) embedded clock.


One thing’s for sure:
Your ADI-8 MK DS III is either slightly broken or the model version has a bug.

This is the rescaled plot of the issue:
https://pbase.com/maartenl945/image/175094136

I have a wordclock cable on order to see if that can provide a workaround.

Thanks,
Maarten

43 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-12-08 22:08:55)

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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

This exactly the standard deemphasis curve.

So, something in the connection path activates this function inside ADI-8 DS MK III.
I didn’t even know ADI-8 can do that!

Double-check the pro / consumer format switch in the driver again, it’s the only option that could be suspicious.


If this doesn’t do it, my best guess is, the clock mismatch scrambles the status bits that transfer  “switch on deemphasis” in a way that the command becomes active.

I don’t think the driver (aside from the pro / consumer format switch) or any other point in the software chain even has this option, emphasis has become very unusual these days.

KaiS's Website

  • Registered: 2008-01-31
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Re: How to connect adi-2 DAC FS to adi-8DS MK III

KaiS wrote:

This exactly the standard deemphasis curve.

So, something in the connection path activates this function inside ADI-8 DS MK III.
I didn’t even know ADI-8 can do that!

Double-check the pro / consumer format switch in the driver again, it’s the only option that could be suspicious.


If this doesn’t do it, my best guess is, the clock mismatch scrambles the status bits that transfer  “switch on deemphasis” in a way that the command becomes active.

I don’t think the driver (aside from the pro / consumer format switch) or any other point in the software chain even has this option, emphasis has become very unusual these days.

The 'professional' switch in the driver has been enabled during all the recent testing so that is not it.
I did receive the WC cable today, connected it, pushed the termination switch on the back and set the ADI-8DS to WCK sync, and this does seem to be a valid work around.

I tried a couple of restarts, changing the startup order of AD-8 versus PC with HDSP AES and it now did not go into the wrong mode anymore. I'll keep an eye on it in the next few weeks, but so far this seems to be a pragmatic work-around. At least I do not have to check anymore after every startup whether the outputs of my ADI-8DS are lacking high-end. Especially since my main outs are now the ADI-2 so I do not automatically hear it after startup listening to those.

So thanks for that suggestion, much appreciated!

Maarten