1 Topic by Dom (edited by Dom 2010-03-21 14:59:14)

  • Dom
  • AES/EBU artist
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2007-05-06
  • Posts: 134

Topic: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

I have been having this problem for a long time and it is pretty annoying.

When I export my softsynth midi recordings everything is fine with the timing.

However, I also use hardware synthesizers like Yamaha Motif ES8.

When I record a midi track everything is in time.

But when I create an audio track to record the actual audio of my Motif while midi playback the audio is recorded slightly later. I mean 4ms but it is audible.

Here I have a screenshot of a snare recorded in a midi track, then played back and recorded to an audio track at the same time.

See the difference in the beginning of the note.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff118/Ivorydom/MidiLatency2.jpg

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff11 … tency2.jpg

I tried to change the latency of my Multiface II but that did not change a thing. Even if I set it to 2048 buffers or 64 buffers the latency from my hardware synth is the same. Also tried the timestamp options but to no avail.

My setup:

Multiface II 3.083 PCI Express

Windows XP32

Gigabyte EX58-UD5
i7920 CPU
4Gb RAM
7200 RPM internal SATA II hard drive

Thank you for any help. I have seen this problem before reported by users but unfortunately I cannot find the links to these pages.

2 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,777

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

MME MIDI or DirectMusic MIDI? Timestamp on or off?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Dom
  • AES/EBU artist
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2007-05-06
  • Posts: 134

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

Hello Matthias,

I use my Multiface II midi ports with DirectMusic MIDI.

I have  Timestamp off but the first thing I tried was to turn it on and it didn't help unfortunately.

4 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2010-03-21 23:21:47)

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

Is it sure that the hardware synth does not create that offset/latency by itself when it's played via Midi (4 ms would be quite alot for hardware, but who knows) ?

  • Dom
  • AES/EBU artist
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2007-05-06
  • Posts: 134

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

I don't notice any latency when I play on my Motif ES, that's for sure.

Now, I don't think that an industry standard synthesizer like Motif would introduce latency! This would be a huge issues for all the studios that use it. I believe this is very unlikely.

I hope for a workaround, in the meanwhile, I'll try to test it with another audio interface (I'll try to hook it up to my Impact Twin midi I/O but I don't have it with me in the studio right now).

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

I didn't mean that the Motif introduces latency when playing, but maybe when receiving midi?

In any case I would try both another Midi interface (just *any* other Midi interface for comparison's sake) and MME (either with Cubase and/or with another software).

  • Registered: 2007-05-09
  • Posts: 649

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

What about converter latency?

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

Converter and interface/driver/buffer related latencies come to mind, but these should be compensated for by Cubase (if it's set up properly that is).

  • Dom
  • AES/EBU artist
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2007-05-06
  • Posts: 134

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

Timur wrote:

Converter and interface/driver/buffer related latencies come to mind, but these should be compensated for by Cubase (if it's set up properly that is).

Hey Timur,

Can you elaborate on this?

As far as buffer settings I found out that at all buffer settings the midi latency is the same. When you say properly setup what do you mean?

Maybe there are some settings I am missing.

I would like to note again however that all my midi timing "inside" Cubase, recording midi, VST instruments and softsynths is perfect. I don't suffer from late or early notes related to Timestamp and emulated/non emulated ports issues.

I am wondering what else it might be.

  • Registered: 2007-05-09
  • Posts: 649

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

Timur wrote:

Converter and interface/driver/buffer related latencies come to mind, but these should be compensated for by Cubase (if it's set up properly that is).

Cubase only can compensate for 1 value. On RME stuff the analog inputs should get compensated properly. Digital inputs need additional manual correction. But 4ms sounds to high to me to be the only reason ...

Maybe the MOTIF converters have such high latency!?

11 Reply by Dom

  • Dom
  • AES/EBU artist
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2007-05-06
  • Posts: 134

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

Right now the only thing I can do is use the midi modifiers Midi plugin in Cubase to compensate for the 4ms, but it still isn't perfectly aligned.

Any other thoughts? Unfortunately I could not find time to test it with another audio interface yet.

  • Registered: 2011-12-30
  • Posts: 5

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

Hi,
Just received my Multiface II and I also noticed heavy (I mean which is too high to play normally - edrums in my case) latency in Ableton Live 8.
PCI-e card also.

I solved it by switching from MME to DirectMusic, just can't hear it right now smile

I hope it will help you.

13 Reply by Joel (edited by Joel 2012-01-17 19:27:27)

  • Joel
  • AD/DA expert
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2007-07-07
  • Posts: 42

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

Most synths have some midi latency.. this is something you have to live with unfortunately.
Best you can do is measure each synth and offset the track to be as accurate as you can..

Now regarding the recording of audio, i have found that the multiface 2 is actually offset by -13 samples (at 44.1 and 48khz)…  at least in my case it is.
I've raised this issue several time but it seems cubase and the rme driver for the multiface 2 just don't play nice together. In other words cubase CANNOT automatically compensate for analog latency with the multiface 2… you have to set it manually.

I suggest you get the cubase loopback test from steinberg and measure your offset that way, and then set that amount into the cubase recording offset panel. You will need to set this up first before you can accurately gauge the amount of midi latency on your motif.

http://f.cl.ly/items/0s0818030O3M2M220h3U/Screen%20shot%202012-01-17%20at%208.22.11%20PM.png

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,866

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

4ms delay is pretty good for a synth like the motif. I remember when I just had the yamaha A3000 sampler, latency fluctuated with the load you put on it. So when playing 2 notes it was 5ms but it could rise to 20ms when using 32 notes. They fixed that in a later firmware but it never got under 4 or 5ms. Only a real analogue synth with an analogue keyboard (aka switches) can have no latency. Even the midi note itself takes 2ms. If you set the motif up as an external instrument in cubase it is easy to compensate for.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

15 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,777

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

Joel, what you write is correct but misses the point. This thread is about MIDI to audio latency in the range of 4 ms up. The 13 samples deviation of the current driver equal a ridiculous error of only 0.3 ms at 44.1 kHz. Just to put it into perspective...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Joel
  • AD/DA expert
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2007-07-07
  • Posts: 42

Re: Midi latency with Hardware Synths - Screenshot

MC wrote:

Joel, what you write is correct but misses the point. This thread is about MIDI to audio latency in the range of 4 ms up. The 13 samples deviation of the current driver equal a ridiculous error of only 0.3 ms at 44.1 kHz. Just to put it into perspective...

Agreed it is tiny, but the effect of multiple offsets can be cumulative, therefore it will help to calibrate the recording offset with a loopback test in order to get a more accurate idea of the midi delay. I only say this because I have been through this exact scenario recording my analogue synths. At least setting the correct offset give one a better starting point.