1 Topic by tigerman (edited by tigerman 2010-02-27 00:13:00)

  • Registered: 2010-02-26
  • Posts: 13

Topic: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Hi, i've just bougth a sony vaio equipped with a core i7 (4+4ht cores), 4 gigs of ddr3 and win7 x64
I have successfully installed fireface 400 updated with firmware 1.70.
I've tried all latest 3 drivers, 1.998, 1.9991 and 1.9992
i have 2 1394 inputs, the one internal (ricoh) and an expresscard one from texas instruments, tried both

So what happens?
Basically once i assign the fireface 400 to any daw/stand-alone plug-in that uses ASIO the asio driver gets an (Hyper threaded) CPU and it keeps that loaded at about 70%, constantly, even if i turn off processing inside the program (like the picture below) it still uses that cpu.

This is a driver issue, in fact i cannot see any process in the process view using that cpu.

I'm from a win xp core2duo machine and i did not have that issue, even with latest drivers, just tried.

I would like to know if

a - it's a core i7 issue
b - it's a 64bit driver issue
c - it's a windows 7 issue
d - if you already know that
e - if there is a workaround
f - if there is an older driver version that it doesn't have this problem (and if you let us download it)
e - if you fix it?? smile

i can still give back this vaio to the sony shop but i have just a few days left, so please let me know what i have to do to keep using your card in a decent way.

I'm quite sure this is the reason why many users are experiencing crackles and a general loss in performance over the new machines..

screenshot of what happens

http://www.pctunerup.com/up//img/png.gif

same situation but with asio4all over its internal realtek audio

http://www.pctunerup.com/up//img/png.gif

please let me/us know asap thank you

2 Reply by tigerman (edited by tigerman 2010-03-01 01:43:45)

  • Registered: 2010-02-26
  • Posts: 13

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Hi, a little update, i've tried installing the ff400 in my tower, equipped with a e8600 (overclocked), 4gigs ram ddr2 geforce gtx260, win7x64 etc...

As you can see from the pictueres below it acts a bit differently but also in this case the fireface creates some cpu load (on both cpus in this case) for no reason. Audio processing is stopped, so it create workload just because is assigned by asio to a program.

EDIT: By the way in this case the worload is very low and can be accettable, while on my laptop is way too high.

please tell me if dowgrading to an older version should solve it.
i'll try installing vista x86, or win7 x86, and let you know.
fireface over my tower

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/_201002/th_20100227130607_fireface-tower.jpg

same but with asio4all

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/_201002/th_20100227130616_asio4all-tower.jpg

thank you

3 Reply by tigerman (edited by tigerman 2010-03-01 01:49:44)

  • Registered: 2010-02-26
  • Posts: 13

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Hi again
I've done more tests.

I've installed Windows Vista 32bit inside this vaio, it's just for testing cause i was missing some drivers..

Also in Vista 32 i get that load, that is not as high as windows 7 x64 but it's still high and causes problems..

here's the 2 shots for comparison

fireface
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/_201003/th_20100301012003_firefacevistax8632bit.jpg

asio4all
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/_201003/th_20100301012044_vistasp2asio4all.jpg

Then i've tried also windows 7 32bit over this Vaio, i do not have screenshots but it acts nearly like the win7 x64 drivers.

As last screenshot here's the windows xp over my old laptop (core2duo t7400 2,16ghz xp sp2)

fireface
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/_201003/th_20100301012211_xpfireface.JPG

asio4all
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/_201003/th_20100301012218_xpasio4all.JPG

so even on xp there is some cpu usage but it's nothing compared to what happens to my Vaio.
It should be a combination of:

1 - Core i7  Hyper threading
2 - Core i7 Turbo Boost
3 - Too Cpu Hungry fireface drivers.

It looks like for now i have to live with it.
To reduce the risk of audio clicks i've found a little workaround, basically if you have a multi core cpu you should first understand which cpu is used by the fireface driver (in my case it take always CPU5, that is the hyperthread one of the third cpu).
Then depending of the application you are going to use you set the affinity of it EXCLUDING the cpu that is currently used by the audio card.
If you have a single thread application just assign to a real unused core, in case of a multithread application just assign all cores except the one used by the card.
In case you have hyper threaded cores you may need to disable the real/hyperthreaded one corresponding to the one used by the card aswell.

Unfortunately there is no way to disable hyper thread over this laptop so i have to live with it also..

I have tried everything with the latest 19992 drivers.
In the old laptop with xp i've tried both 1.9992 (in xpsp3) and 1.89 (in xp sp2) and they works exactly in the same way.

i would like to find older drivers, please tell me if i have any chance to reduce that load, or please do something to reduce cpu usage for the new driver release (when is used as ASIO), thank you

4 Reply by tigerman (edited by tigerman 2010-03-01 12:23:36)

  • Registered: 2010-02-26
  • Posts: 13

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Another update:

I've tried installing XP over this new laptop but i can't, it gives me blue page, this is probably because of AHCI mode?
so reading on the other threads, even if i can't set it up under the bios it means that i will be able to use ff400 in this new laptop with windows 7 because he has the correct AHCI mode right?
i'm gonna try turning off ACPI battery, for turning it off it means to disable it under devices manager ?
i'm downloading the Latency checker app aswell just to check it out.

Please any word from anyone would be really appreciated thanks.
i've already spent 2 days tryin to sorting this out with basically no luck, only a "weird" workaround.

WIndows 7 in my laptop is a clean install, i've disabled everything i don't need, such as wifi, bluetooth, ethernet adapted, memory card readers.. they are disabled by the vaio switch and under device manager aswell.

  • Registered: 2010-02-26
  • Posts: 13

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Here i am again tongue

i like to do monologues, really
i've tryed latency checker and it says my system is fine, all bars are green

i've tried also disabling acpi battery but nothing changes in terms of asio driver cpu usage.

i really don't know what to do next.
If you need more detailed info about my system please let me know.

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,779

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Don't really have an answer, I'm afraid (no access to a similar machine), but does this actually cause a problem, i.e. clicks or so? Have you tested recording and playback?


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

7 Reply by tigerman (edited by tigerman 2010-03-01 19:15:57)

  • Registered: 2010-02-26
  • Posts: 13

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Yes i've tested obviously but only with Native Instruments Reaktor and Plogue Bidule (single thread apps)..
let's say that it limits my machine, if i set up affinity i generally get no clicks, but for example if i try booting up with only 1 cpu i get a lot of clicks because the software is working on the same cpu of the asio driver.

The same apply sometimes if i don't set affinity, cause the load moves continuously throu cpus and when it goes to the same of the asio driver and/or to the sister (the real one) i get clicks.

Let's say that also because of this driver i cannot go over 75% cpu usage in my application, else i start getting clicks.
Also i cannot disable multi threading at boot time cause i need to keep 1 extra cpu open for the asio driver workload.
Also turbo boost doesn't push the cpu at maximum clock cause there are 2 cpu working and not only one.

i haven't tried any multi-threading application daw like Cubase, but i guess it will work fine until cubase starts loading the cpu used by the driver, again i believe that you can working fine disabling the cpu by affinity, but at the cost of a cpu (maybe 2 consider hyperthread) less in cubase.

Basically i have a card that needs a cpu to work. Who will buy a professional card that needs nearly an entire cpu to work ? Why asio4all + realtek does not have this issue at all?
I will try to let asio4all driver use the fireface, if there's a way, let's see what happens..

I can work fine, but the risk of getting a click is much higher now, in my old laptop i was reaching 100% cpu (it writes OVER) and i still getting no clicks at all, with this machine i start getting clicks from 75% usage.

and i have a core i7, i can imagine the same work load on a slower cpu probably creates much more issues.

If you want me to test anything please consider me as beta tester, i think in the future you will get more and more people use core i7 and win7 x64, it's already a quite common setup for newer machines.

cheers

8 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

I do not expect this to be a driver problem on our side or even that it can be improved by us. FireWire causes some CPU load, and that is from the OS FW subsystem/driver, not from us. You cannot compare it with a PCI based (internal) soundcard. All the values that you show are normal. For the first one (70%) it is a bummer, I agree, but am also pretty sure this will be solved by a BIOS or OS update at some point.

And just to make sure: you are running the notebook in High Performance mode?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

9 Reply by tigerman (edited by tigerman 2010-03-02 11:44:33)

  • Registered: 2010-02-26
  • Posts: 13

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

yes, every energy saver option is off and/or set to performance mode

so basically if i re-buy the pci/cardbus/expresscard version of it i will totally eliminate workload?

i sold it about 3 years ago cause expresscard was not available yet and i had to use it in a newer laptop, so i took this ff400
i had to buy also a texas instrument xpresscard to 1294 adapter cause the internal dell 1394 chipset was crap.
now again a newer laptop, time to swicth again? sad

on Vista sp2 there is still cpu load, even if it's lower but after 2 services packs they haven't solved much, i don't expect a quick fix from MS and if you tell me it's not your fault and you can''t do nothing i guess that audio streaming throu firewire in Windows 7 is not the way to go, at this point i would like to see how usb audio cards works as of today...

Do i have any chance to find some other 1394 drivers that works better than the generic ones installed by windows 7 ?
does they even exists ?
maybe we can tweak something in the registry ?
i've browsed TI website with no luck

i've tried with 2 1394, the one internal ricoh and the one xpresscard from texas instruments, nothing changes, so are both 1394 drivers bad or it's something before them?

thanks for you answers anyway

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Since non i7 computers don't show this problem it's quite likely some CPU driver issue, probably very similiar to the ITunes high CPU load/temperature issue on OS X. The latter was connected to the energy-saving features of the CPU/CPU-driver and was fixed by an Apple update.

Do you happen to have a Firewire harddrive around? It uses another method for data transmission, but may help to determine if this is a general FW problem or not.

11 Reply by tigerman (edited by tigerman 2010-03-09 16:29:11)

  • Registered: 2010-02-26
  • Posts: 13

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

nope, unfortunately i do not have any other 1394 device to test it out, does anyone with a i5/i7 machine can do this test for us please ?

i have to rectify that this driver load happens also when is used normally and not only when used as ASIO, if i select ff400 as default device and i open an mp3 under winamp i get the same load.

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,779

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

I have an i7-870 CPU and mainboard here waiting to be set up, but I've just not had the time yet... Soon, hopefully.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

13 Reply by tigerman (edited by tigerman 2010-03-09 20:12:27)

  • Registered: 2010-02-26
  • Posts: 13

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

I think i've solved the ISSUEEEEE big_smile

http://social.answers.microsoft.com/For … 55063bcfb8

in detail:
----------------------------
1)  Click Start

2) Type Device Manager and find your Firewire device.

3)In your case it is ?1394 OHCI Compliant Host Controller?.

4) Right-click it and hit ?Update Driver Software?,

5) Then ?Browse my computer for driver software? and ?Let me pick from a list of device drivers on my computer?.

6) Select the version with (Legacy) at the end and click-through to install it.
----------------------------

Now it uses really low CPU, about 10% like any other system!!!!!!

Please tell me if i can encounter any issue using the "legacy" version, cause is a generic OHCI, no more Texas Instrument, or Ricoh.
Am i in still in a safe config? Better if i keep using texas instruments with "legacy" one or the Ricoh one with "legacy"?
Many thanks!!

I can now reboot with 1 CPU only active, turbo boost push the core at 2,8Ghz all the time and i do not get any kind of click until 95% cpu usage!! Also CPU usage is constant now, before it was moving a lot, and generally it works everything better, less heat aswell smile

So it looks like i do not have to buy another audio card anymore, that's a good news indeed wink
My only fear is about stability now, but it's on since an hour already and everything looks fine...

I guess everyone with Win7x64 should do this trick to achieve better performance...
Let us know about your tests on the i7 Desktop, even if it works a bit different, mainly because the laptop one has a default clock of 1.6ghz and turbo boost push it up to 2,8ghz, while on desktop i7 usually turbo boost push the clock relatively less...

14 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2010-03-09 22:22:21)

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

It's still probably an issue with your special setup though, because others can use the non legacy driver without this behavior. I had an I7 based Imac 27" running bootcamped Windows 7 with the non legacy Firewire driver. Although I did not check specifically back then I do not remember any untypical CPU behavior when I ran some test. But maybe it just slipped through without me noticing.

  • Registered: 2010-02-26
  • Posts: 13

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Timur wrote:

It's still probably an issue with your special setup though, because others can use the non legacy driver without this behavior. I had an I7 based Imac 27" running bootcamped Windows 7 with the non legacy Firewire driver. Although I did not check specifically back then I do not remember any untypical CPU behavior when I ran some test. But maybe it just slipped through without me noticing.

well, probably with the i7 is worse, by the way you should try using the legacy one and see if you have any boost in performance, i mean, if with the legacy uses less cpu than with the normal one...

16 Reply by sam242 (edited by sam242 2010-04-11 17:03:43)

  • Registered: 2010-04-10
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

same issue here as well ...i7 920 - fireface800 - windows 7x64, just open a sound app that use driver
(CPU #5 bounces from 0-35-70%)even if parked.

changing to TI 1394 (Legacy) driver fixed it!

anyone with i7 and windows 7 using fireface 800/400  should check this out!

  • Registered: 2010-04-21
  • Posts: 2

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Hello!

I would like to instal the ?1394 OHCI Compliant Host Controller?-legacy driver --- but where can I find it?? It's not included in Windows/Drivers, is it?

Thanks in advance! :-) Philipp

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Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

redmaitai wrote:

Hello!

I would like to instal the ?1394 OHCI Compliant Host Controller?-legacy driver --- but where can I find it?? It's not included in Windows/Drivers, is it?

Thanks in advance! :-) Philipp

Yup its included.
Go Device Manager>(1394 device)>Driver>Update Driver>Browse>Let Me Pick>Show compatible.. and you'll see it.

  • Registered: 2010-04-21
  • Posts: 2

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Gr8h8m wrote:

Yup its included.
Go Device Manager>(1394 device)>Driver>Update Driver>Browse>Let Me Pick>Show compatible.. and you'll see it.

Thanks for your quick answer!
I can't find anything compatible in the driver's directory. The directory is C:/Windows/Drivers/EXE/Devices and Printers (Ricoh) Registry Patch .
The only file in it is called "090629.reg" and my Win7-update-dialogue doesn't show any options for choosing as well.

Could maybe anyone send me the driver as a file? Or what can I do?

Thanks a lot! Best, Philipp

20 Reply by MC

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Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Let me pick > Show compatible

You are NOT going to whatever directory to choose a driver! It's listed directly when taking the steps described.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2010-10-08
  • Posts: 2

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

thank you so much for this post !

this saved me after weeks of problems
I just post this cause i've detected the problem in a slightly different way (through interrupt load) to help browsing this issue


this what i sent to rme support :


i own a fireface 800, a fireface 400(firewire), hdsp9632, and raydat (plus an adi8-dd)

i have a new windows 7 vaio core i5 M520 2.4GHz with 4 Go laptop since 3 months that runs th F400 (rev 1.70, drivers 3.020 updated this morning but the problem appeared with old 2.x driver and is lasting with the new one)

after some unusual crashes on the laptop that runs the F400, i realised that an empty ableton live 8 session was using 15%cpu

same with ableton live 7

after that i runned an empty reaper session with the same problem (15%cpu with no sound when i run the empty session, o% when stopped)

i had a look at the app manager that told me reaper was using almost no cpu

then had a look to the ressource monitor that indicates 15%cpu (!!!!!) load caused by interruptions

i own a fw card bus with texas instrument chipset (just in case)

so i runned the F400 under TI chip with 6 pin cable

same problem (17% average cpu caused by interruptions)

it seems it's not a hardware problem...


none of my other rme device use more than 1% cpu when running no sound



the solution is up before...

22 Reply by sam242 (edited by sam242 2011-09-02 08:43:43)

  • Registered: 2010-04-10
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

update:
still after updating windows 7 sp1 with all latest fixes,and latest RME driver, this problem with the native firewire  TI driver with just opening a sound app, that uses fireface 800 3.47 driver, the CPU core #5 bounces between 0-35-70% even if parked!!?...
still using Legacy firewire driver cpu usege normal.
will it ever be fixed?

i7 920 windows 7x64 Fireface 800(3.47/2.77)

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

I've been using both first and second generation i7 without these issues. So it's still likely an issue of your Firewire port.

One thing you can try: Go to Start -> Control Panel -> Sound. Double-clock on all FF outputs, go to tab "Enhancements" and turn them OFF ("Disable all enhancements").

24 Reply by sam242 (edited by sam242 2011-09-07 10:57:17)

  • Registered: 2010-04-10
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

if it was an issue with my TI firewire port on my Motherboard, then other pepole should not have this problem...and they still do.

it seems it's not a hardware problem...

i checkd this on other i7 (not only i7) systems and it is the same issue still.

what Motherboard are you using?

Greets

25 Reply by tigerman (edited by tigerman 2011-09-28 15:09:52)

  • Registered: 2010-02-26
  • Posts: 13

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

it's a problem with newer 1394 drivers used in win7 x86 and x64, it's not an hardware problem.
confirming we still have to use legacy drivers to achieve maximum performances even with 3.047 drivers...

probably this does not happen with some 1394 chipsets, but i have 2 chipsets here, ricoh and texas instruments and i have same problem with both.

if someone is sure that it doesn't have this issue it should let us know wich kind of 1394 chipset it has.
thanks

you should sticky this or make a polished sticky to let the users know about this issue until you find a solution.
this will probably save you a lot of posts about clicks/crackles/loss of performances....

best

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

Yes, but I have tested both LSI/Agere (in Macbook Pro) and TI (in iMac) on Windows 7 64 bit and they work flawless. So it still cannot just be a "general" issue of the driver, but depends on the specific setup.

Also it's not only about chipsets, but also about how they are integrated by the (mainboard) manufacturer and sometimes BIOS. I saw a modern i5/i7 + TI based Gigabyte mainboard causing dropouts while my old Athlon X64 + Nforce4 + TI based mainboard did not. I saw a VIA based mainboard dropout while a VIA based PCI card did not (or maybe it was the other way around).

27 Reply by sam242 (edited by sam242 2011-10-06 23:31:46)

  • Registered: 2010-04-10
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface 400 uses an entire cpu just to stay on (asio-win7x64-corei7)

thanks for confirming the problem tigerman.

users should know about this issue for sure.
same issue on more then 10 studios that i have checked with different DAW setups and rme driver.
we still have to use legacy drivers to achieve maximum performances even with 3.047 drivers...will sure save a lot of posts about clicks/crackles/loss of performances.

RME should confirm and  this issue is still there with latest Win 7 SP1 and 3.047 drivers,and sticky it on the site...