1 (edited by ben ifin 2010-07-30 07:40:26)

Topic: Layla 3G 'vs' FireFace UC .... worthwhile / " hearable " upgrade ?

Hi all

First post here.

I run Windows 7 X64 with a very fast  quad-core-hyper-threaded  4.2gig cpu  and use  Sonar  8.5.3 X64.

Been using a Layla 3G for a few years and am looking to upgrade - possibly to a FireFace UC.  The Layla 3G is now  ~5 years old  and the  FFUC pretty-much new

I have four  (4)  quick questions please:-


Q-> all other equipment being equal  will there be a noticeable / hearable improvement in audio quality moving from the Layla 3G to the FFUC ?

Q-> the Layla 3G uses a  CS4272  AD/DA  converter  -  what does the FFUC  use  ?


My Layla 3G runs happily all day long at  32 sample buffer even with massive projects - measured with CEntrance, I have a real-world round trip latency of 3.51ms at 24bit / 44k.

I believe  [apparenlty ]  that the minimum Windows Latency for the FFUC is  48 samples, but in a MAC environment is can go a lot lower.


Q-> can the FFUC be run at a lower latency than  48 samples in Windows  ?

Q-> if not yet, is this possible / coming  ?


All comments / opinions much appreciated.

Ben

Re: Layla 3G 'vs' FireFace UC .... worthwhile / " hearable " upgrade ?

A discussion about the differences in sound quality between various converters is usually endless and pointless... Whether or not you hear a difference is something only you can find out...

The UC uses the AKM 4620 codec (combined AD/DA).

48 samples is minimum, plus a certain saftey buffer (see manual).


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

3 (edited by ben ifin 2010-07-30 13:27:40)

Re: Layla 3G 'vs' FireFace UC .... worthwhile / " hearable " upgrade ?

Hi Daniel

Thanks for the response.

Regarding the  48 sample minimum, is there a reason why the Windows driver cannot go lower - or at least as low as the Mac driver  ?

I  *thought*  the Windows 7 audio architecture was now such that this would no longer be a limitation ?

Also - I cant seem to find the RME FFUC  .pdf  manual on the website (?)  can it be downloaded  (?)  if not, what is the size of the safety buffer for the FFUC (?)

Ben

Re: Layla 3G 'vs' FireFace UC .... worthwhile / " hearable " upgrade ?

Regarding the  48 sample minimum, is there a reason why the Windows driver cannot go lower - or at least as low as the Mac driver  ?

This is a Windows limitation (USB tech info).

Also - I cant seem to find the RME FFUC  .pdf  manual on the website (?)  can it be downloaded  (?)

A link to the manual is on every product page.

if not, what is the size of the safety buffer for the FFUC (?)

For safety buffer and latency please use the forum search.

best regards
Knut

5 (edited by ben ifin 2010-07-31 07:40:59)

Re: Layla 3G 'vs' FireFace UC .... worthwhile / " hearable " upgrade ?

Many thanks Knut - found the manual and USB info - I'll look better next time.

Whislt I dont [ yet ] have a FFUC and therefore cannot [ yet ]  actually run a CEntrance loop-back test, given what I have read, and given a Windows 7 environment, the minimum actual real-world-round-trip-latency then at  16/44  is going to be  ~ 4.7ms ..... being ....

=>  48 samples in + 48 samples out + 32 sample out safety buffer + AD Latecny + DA Latency = ~ 4.7ms

ie:  ~ 1.0ms + ~1.0ms + ~ 0.7ms + ~ 1.0ms + ~ 1.0ms = ~ 4.7ms

I presume the above is not going to be too-far off the mark  ?

Lastly  -  although 48 samples is the Windows limitation, could it not be an option in the Driver Control Panel to be allowed to toggle the 32 sample safety buffer on or off for those of us thar run  very  fast machines (?) ..... feasably, that  could reduce the latency by a further  ~0.7ms  thereby taking the RTL Latency to ~4.0ms which would be the same as the best  PCI or PCI-E cards running at 48 samples ?

Thanks,
ben

6

Re: Layla 3G 'vs' FireFace UC .... worthwhile / " hearable " upgrade ?

Changing from 4.7 to 4.0 has no meaning in real world. Apart from that 32 samples do not work reliable under Win even with super-fast machines. This limitation is not dependent on the speed of the machine.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

7 (edited by ben ifin 2010-07-31 08:30:28)

Re: Layla 3G 'vs' FireFace UC .... worthwhile / " hearable " upgrade ?

Hi Matthias

Thanks for the info - much appreciated.

Out of curiosity, if  ~4.7ms is the useable practical minimum for a fast Windows machine for a FFUC, what is the useable practical minimum for a fast MAC ?

[ ie: I had a quick look in the MAC Desktop compatability listing and couldnt see many there running sub-48 samples ]

Presumably, if they can run at 32 samples and with a smaller 28 sample safety buffer, my gues is their real-world RTL useable minimum is ~ 4.0ms ?

Thanks again,
ben

Re: Layla 3G 'vs' FireFace UC .... worthwhile / " hearable " upgrade ?

I had a quick look in the MAC Desktop compatability listing and couldnt see many there running sub-48 samples

The minimum buffer is a borderline setting. Real world scenarios and experiences - like in our list of tested systems - show 48/64 to 128 samples for up-to-date Mac systems. 48 stable samples for a current i5/i7 desktop, like the iMac 27. All in all revolutionary low - and stable - values for an USB interface and by far low enough to use the UC as realtime audio system. But in the end the possible latencies depends always on the individual system. So just test it. We can add your findings to the list of our tested systems.

Btw. The Centrance tool does not work with Mac OS X. Roundtrip latencies could be measured only with an audio loop setup.

best regards
Knut