Topic: TotalMix FX/Babyface - Trim Gain

MC, I know you're on the case ... :-)

While i'm waiting (Steve does not appear to have received a pre-production unit or at least has not told me about it), I've been reading the manual to understand what TM/FX will bring.  Let us turn to p.44 (V1.1) and the discussion of Trim Gain.

"The global Trim mode is recommended when using TotalMix FX as live
mixing desk."

Right up my alley.  You explain that really there is no "main fader" on TM/FX, and the situation is just like the auxiliaries on a mixing desk.   The Trim Gain makes all the sub-mixes behave like post fader aux sends on a normal mixing desk.  I have previously suggested the need for 'vertical linking' of faders (ie., the same channel on another 'layer' or submix).  This need principally arises from the need to link the main monitor submix (where one can do destructive solo-in-place) with the 'broadcast' mix (where you do not want solo to interrupt the program).  Change the monitor mix, and the broadcast (linked) mix is changed accordingly.

Now, Trim Gain appears to have given this facility, but on an " all-er-nuthin' " basis.  So all submixes on that channel are controlled on a 'post-fader' basis.  Go and look at any live desk and you will find that there is always a choice of pre-fade and post-fade aux mixes  - many desks allow you to choose pre or post fade per-channel in a single mix.  This is most useful in a live mix where you are all providing a local pa mix - pre-fade for the mics so that changing the gain in the broadcast mix does not get you into trouble with feedback, but post fade for the play-in FX and music.   Same applies for a monitor mix, where again you want to give the musos on stage a constant mix so they can balance themselves, and again isolate yourself from the problem of feedback if you have to raise a particular channel in the broadcast mix.  Then again, you may need to exclude some channels from an auxiliary mix (excluding "commentary" channels from the "international sound" feed.   These are a few real-world examples if, as is my ambition, you wish to use TotalMix as your digital mixing environment, instead of reverting to an external analog desk as in the past.

I'm bringing a live/broadcast sensibility to this, but others may also see a need to exclude some submixes from the uniform "post-fader" regime that "Trim Gain" implies.  I'm putting this up on the forum, because others may see a similar need in a different application, and may wish to add their own comments.  I'm quite happy to be the "odd man out" on this idea but as they said on Madison Avenue in the '50s, "Let's run it up the flagpole and see who salutes!".

I gather this is all controlled from the host/driver application not the on-board firmware, so let's hope this idea is simple.  Keep the Trim Gain facility as it is, but after selecting it for a particular channel, go to a particular sub mix where you want top exclude that channel or you want prefade control, and Ctrl-Click on the double arrow.  It will then change to another colour to show that, while Trim Gain has been activated on this channel, this submix has been isolated from it.  This effectively offers the same grouped/non-grouped facility 'vertically' ie., between layers or submixes, as you now have implemented horizontally, ie., different channels in the same submix.

OK, I know there are lots of things happening now, but maybe I (and others, if they see the need) could get you to put this on the list for a future refinement on TM/FX.  Just gets me one step closer to being able to use RME to mix "in-the-box" for live broadcast requirements, and getting me closer to the "all digital from the mic pre-amp to the transmitter output" situation.

Please consider.

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

2

Re: TotalMix FX/Babyface - Trim Gain

I do consider, and thanks for the detailed explanation. But I still have the impression that the way TotalMix works, and the nearly unlimited cpabilities it offers, is not yet fully uncovered for you. You really should forget the standard desk design and not try to bring back features that are not necessary anymore in real world applications when working in TM - or at some point would limit the current design. But this is not a 'no', we will discuss your suggestion.

BTW, just to correct one of your statements: the post fader mode has been present in TM over all the years, performed by a right click drag with the mouse, and had been described in all the manuals.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

3 (edited by panatrope 2010-10-12 12:54:00)

Re: TotalMix FX/Babyface - Trim Gain

Thanks for your response, MC, and yes I am aware of the "right-click" gain change for tracking facility.

However, if I have the monitoring mix (which I can solo-in-place, destructively) and the broadcast mix and a PA mix, if I raise the gain of a channel with right click in the monitor mix, to also raise its gain in the broadcast mix, I cannot stop its gain being raised in the PA mix, which is already close to the feedback limit, which I would prefer not to do.

I feel that TotalMix would benefit from the ability to group freely in the 'vertical' plane, in same manner as now appears to be offered in the 'horizontal' plane ie., channels in a particular submix.   I have used TotalMix in its present form for some years now, in a number of live applications, and while I admit to being able to overlook the obvious, I have yet to find a way to use TotalMix in the way described above.

I would expect that one objective of the newly enhanced TotalMix is to remove the need for an external mixing facility, by replicating the facilities of a normal analog mixer.  TotalMix FX seems to have been a useful move in this direction (of course I will not know for sure until I get my hands on a Babyface), but as it has been described in the manual,  I feel that the " all-er-nuthin' "** Trim Gain post-fader facility needs to evolve a little more to achieve this aim.

Of course, I am still looking forward to getting my hands on a Babyface with TotalMix FX and experiencing what it can do to improve the way I work.  But I hope that other RME users can also bring their experience to bear on this subject so we all can learn ...


** for those who may not recognise this quote, see
Rogers and Hammerstein: "Oklahoma"; duet Will and Ado Annie.

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

4

Re: TotalMix FX/Babyface - Trim Gain

Your example has some pitfall. For it to be valid all three submixes must be quite different. In that case you can not adjust the volume on 2 submixes at the same time, you are forced to listen and then decide on how much to raise. For that simply not use Trim and set them one after the other.

Adding the selected Trim feature will finally remove any valid overview of what's going on and understanding for most users. That's why I have some worries with that one.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: TotalMix FX/Babyface - Trim Gain

I must admit the top priority for me is to have a control room mix with solo (to be able to check particular channels while on air) and an identical coupled output mix which soloing does not affect.

But I do acknowledge that TotalMix has to work for users at all levels of experience, and understanding a 3-dimensional control surface is often an issue (I do not enjoy the current 'layered' design of digital mixers).  So indeed the process does need careful consideration.

I note that no-one else has entered the discussion, so for the moment I seem to be on my own on this one.   

Meanwhile, looking forward to finding out about the UFX.  (8 PGA2500 mic preamps, by any chance? That would be a nice in the Christmas stocking ... )

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

6

Re: TotalMix FX/Babyface - Trim Gain

panatrope wrote:

I must admit the top priority for me is to have a control room mix with solo (to be able to check particular channels while on air) and an identical coupled output mix which soloing does not affect.

Now that is a totally different thing and will be available soon as PFL function for the CRM Main out. If PFL is activated the Solo buttons will do right that.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

7 (edited by panatrope 2010-10-13 02:58:16)

Re: TotalMix FX/Babyface - Trim Gain

MC wrote:

Now that is a totally different thing and will be available soon as PFL function for the CRM Main out. If PFL is activated the Solo buttons will do right that.

Thank you for that advice.  I'll look forward to trying it.  I assume that as it appears to be a 'non-FX' feature (ie., in the host driver rather than device FPGA), it may eventually appear in TotalMix for existing FW (400) and HDSPe (MADI, AIO) products.

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum