Topic: Fireface 400 or RayDAT for a new desktop PC?

Hello,

I think of getting a desktop PC (a good, near-silent Core i7 machine with plenty of RAM and a small SSD hard drive, for cheaper than an average laptop). Currently I have an old laptop and a Fireface 400.

My question is: would I get better low latency performance using a RayDAT instead of the FF400? I will only use 44.1 or 48kHz sample rates and need a latency of 64 samples for live work. This setting works on my laptop provided that the CPU load is not too high, and I guess it can only be better on the desktop. So maybe I should wait and get a RayDAT only when I need more inputs and outputs, right? Or does it also radically improve low-latency performance so that it would be useful getting it now?

The joke behind this is: if I got a RayDAT I would still have to use the FF400 as a standalone AD/DA box, as new similar-quality converters would cost a lot. Anyway I cannot sell my FF400 easily as the front panel encoder is not fully functional (push has no more effect).

What would you do?

Best regards
-j

Re: Fireface 400 or RayDAT for a new desktop PC?

I just built a totally silent system around an i7-870 (with the original boxed fan) on an Intel board. No SSD, just a 2.5" boot drive and a quiet 1.5 TB data drive (WD 15EARS).

Have connected a FF 400, but haven't tested it for lowest-latency performance yet. Not a lot of software installed so far. Depending on the system, PCIe may have a small edge here and there, but the change will not likely be radical.

Do you use a lot pf plugins or why do you need 64 samples? I'd suggest to try the FF first, and see what it will do for you.

Concerning the encoder, try pulling it out carefully, that sometimes helps.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Fireface 400 or RayDAT for a new desktop PC?

Hello

According to my exp. through the years of performing live mixing/sound processing with computer and FF800 interface 96 samples @ 48 kHz is the best choice between latency and performance. If you do not have disk activity in your DAW (no recording or playback) you can go to the lowest 48 without dropouts (with Core i7 you described). With disk I/O and 64 samples you will have some dropouts (1-2 in one hour) I'm pretty shure. Maybe not with SSD HD but with classic one dropouts will be present. With 96 samples dropouts will disappear (they do in my case).

regards

Re: Fireface 400 or RayDAT for a new desktop PC?

RME Support wrote:

Depending on the system, PCIe may have a small edge here and there, but the change will not likely be radical.

The FF400 should be ok as a main audio interface then. I will try it as you suggested.

Do you use a lot pf plugins or why do you need 64 samples?

No I don't use many plugins at the same time and actually I use my own softwares mostly ("programmed" with the help of Pure Data or Max/MSP; maybe C/C++/C# one day...). These softwares are all pretty light and the only thing that can be CPU-hungry in my case is using polyphonic samplers with many voices.

That said, I play the acoustic piano, and as I cannot have an actual piano at my place I plan on getting Ivory II Italian Grand which should be my only "giga bank".


When it comes to 64-sample latency, it's because I can really feel a subtle difference between the 64-smp and the 128-smp settings on my system when playing software instruments in live. I know it's not psychological as I checked it with A/B tests. I guess it depends on the system a lot. Anyway, in case the CPU gets too high, I switch to 128 which is still acceptable. 256 samples sometimes - but I rarely have to do this.
When not working in live I don't care too much about the latency.

Concerning the encoder, try pulling it out carefully, that sometimes helps.

OK, I will try it, thanks a lot for this tip.

Best regards
Happy new year
Julien

Re: Fireface 400 or RayDAT for a new desktop PC?

kasaudio wrote:

Hello

According to my exp. through the years of performing live mixing/sound processing with computer and FF800 interface 96 samples @ 48 kHz is the best choice between latency and performance. If you do not have disk activity in your DAW (no recording or playback) you can go to the lowest 48 without dropouts (with Core i7 you described). With disk I/O and 64 samples you will have some dropouts (1-2 in one hour) I'm pretty shure. Maybe not with SSD HD but with classic one dropouts will be present. With 96 samples dropouts will disappear (they do in my case).

regards

THanks for sharing your experience!

I personally use 48kHz for movies only though. And I cannot really use 96 samples. For a particular reason that I can explain if you want but I'm afraid it's not very interesting here, I get way better performance when using latencies that are a power of 2. Then it's either 64 or 128. If I work at 96 samples latency, it uses way more CPU than 64.

Best regards
Happy new year
-j

Re: Fireface 400 or RayDAT for a new desktop PC?

Hello julien

I too use only custom made software in my audio work with Fire Face 800 (and other interfaces also). As a software developer I'm interested why is it not possible to work with 96 samples buff size. I guess you use some kind of FFT (STFFT) stuff which indeed requires processing sizes of power of 2.

regards, kasaudio

Re: Fireface 400 or RayDAT for a new desktop PC?

No problem for working with 96 smp buffers fortunately smile But on some softwares like Max/MSP, it takes more CPU than 64 samples. Here is the explanation.

When programming a realtime audio software, you use a software DSP buffer that can have a different size compared to the hardware DSP buffer; in any case the hardware buffer size must be a multiple of the software buffer size.

For a given latency, you get the lowest CPU load if the software buffer has the same size as the hardware buffer. For example, if the hardware buffer is set to 64 samples, using a 64-sample software buffer will take less CPU than a 32-sample or a 8-sample software buffer.

The actual latency is given by the hardware buffer size, not by the software buffer size.
The only reason for using smaller software buffers is when requiring very short delay lines with a feedback loop: in this case, the delay time cannot be shorter than the time that corresponds to the size of the software buffer. If you need very short delays, you can still use a very small software buffer size for the delay computation only and a big software buffer size for the remaining of the program (this is even possible in Max/MSP and Pure Data).

Let's consider you want to use the biggest possible software buffer size for a given hardware buffer size. The problem with Max/MSP is that it only supports software buffer sizes that are a power of 2 (while, if I remember correctly, Pure Data can use any size -- and of course if you use C, C++ or C# you can use any size as well).
With Max/MSP, when using a hardware buffer of 64 samples you can also set the software buffer size to 64 (as 2^6 = 64), which is optimal in terms of latency vs CPU load ratio. But if the hardware buffer is set to 96 samples, the biggest possible software size is 32 samples (as 3 * 2^5 = 96). A software buffer size of 32 samples uses way more CPU than 64 samples (at least on my computer). Therefore, when using Max/MSP, if I choose a hardware buffer size of 64 samples instead of 96, I get a better latency, less CPU load and a better stability. Of course, if it was possible to use a 96-sample software buffer size in Max, it would be different!

For me this means that:

1. When using Max/MSP you should have an audio interface that supports power-of-2 hardware buffer sizes (for example RME and M-Audio can do this, but not Edirol nor Presonus)

2. The Max/MSP audio engine may need to be reworked


I don't use Max only, but because of this Max problem I choosed to use a latency of 64 samples when working in live. I would not want to change the latency each time I run a particular software smile
I admit I could not find any equivalent to Max besides classic programmation languages (C, etc). But currently I don't know how to program audio softwares with these languages. I need to study things like audio file access, standard DSP frameworks like VST, advanced multithreading, etc.


Best,
-j

Re: Fireface 400 or RayDAT for a new desktop PC?

Hello julien

If you use custom made software there I see no problem using 96 smp hw buffer with algorithm that requires let's say 64 samples. The only thing you (should) lose is latency performance, not efficiency perf. (Circular buffers are very effective...). However, if software you use, does not support this feature you are forced to use required values.

Developing custom audio software is a hard work, if you are interested in this topic, you can contact me directly I'm sure I can help you a little with this things.

regards, kasaudio