1 Topic by tigertigertiger (edited by tigertigertiger 2011-04-01 10:05:18)

  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Topic: Latency

Hello all,

I'm playing MIDI, and the lowest latency settings I can get is 512 samples. I'm recording at 44,100hz.
I really can't do better without getting the famous 'clicks'.
I'm using Cubase 5 (~20plugins(Kore/Reaktor)+~2 effects per) and would like to know how to improve on this, if at all possible.

Turning off wifi does not change things. I've already turned off windows system sounds. I read something about power management--cut that off too.

Thank you for any advice.


Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53Ghz, 8RAM, Win7-64, Fireface UC, RNC1776 Compressor, EMU-Xboard49

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.
  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Re: Latency

By the way,
I've got--at most--4 or 5 tracks playing at once at any one time (with an effect or two for each). That's why I'm surprised that I'm unable to get lower latency. I'm seeing everyone on forums going at 96 and 64 samples and the likes. I could NEVER get to 128 with extreme clicking...
Is there something in win7 I don't know about that I should shut off?
Thanks again all--

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.

3 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2011-04-04 10:21:05)

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Latency

Probably an issue of your computer/setup. Try running the following application and post a screenshot:

http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

And what DAW software are we talking about?

4 Reply by tigertigertiger (edited by tigertigertiger 2011-04-04 10:48:38)

  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Re: Latency

Hi Timur,

Thank you very much for replying. I've downloaded the latency checker as you requested. Here is the image:
http://img685.imageshack.us/i/latencyk.jpg/
or (wondering if the image was embedded)
http://img685.imageshack.us/i/latencyk.jpg/

I am using Cubase essentials 5. (I thought I had a sig, better check that out...)

By the way... concerning my project (~70 tracks), I don't even have to press 'play'. I'll just select one of my MIDI tracks, click on "direct monitoring" (why not), and press a note on my MIDI keyboard. At 48, 64, or even 96(!), I'll get a big deformed/parasite-sounding note...

Troubled...

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.
  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Re: Latency

This might help as well,
the driver version is : 0.935
Hardware revision: 111 (this is the firmware, I would presume?)

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.

6 Reply by kasaudio (edited by kasaudio 2011-04-04 10:57:29)

  • Registered: 2007-06-16
  • Posts: 214

Re: Latency

That should not work at all. Bad. You have a lot to fix in your system.

  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Re: Latency

Yikes!

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.

8 Reply by kasaudio (edited by kasaudio 2011-04-04 11:04:45)

  • Registered: 2007-06-16
  • Posts: 214

Re: Latency

set power management to high performance, turn off wlan (disable driver, not just turn off device), set display driver to standard vga (for start), disable everything you can and latency check again. You should be in green area to expect no clicks and pops under low latency.

  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Re: Latency

Hello,
I've set power management to high performance, turned off wlan, and set the display to 1280x768 (instead of 1280x1366).
This is the new latency check:
http://img847.imageshack.us/i/latency2.png/
http://img847.imageshack.us/i/latency2.png/
It seems better, but I still am having trouble with MIDI play: I get that parasitic noise. Now that I think about it, it's not quite delay I'm getting, but like... errors (I can't say a loss in 'sound quality', as I'm dealing with MIDI. And, well, I'm getting some delay of course, as I've been manually rearranging my MIDI notes for the past few months)...

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.

10 Reply by kasaudio (edited by kasaudio 2011-04-04 12:02:39)

  • Registered: 2007-06-16
  • Posts: 214

Re: Latency

You have awful dpc latencies. Something is really wrong. By using standard vga driver i meant this: DeviceManager -> DisplayAdapter-> Standard VGA, not just lowering display resolution. Turn off Fireface, stop struggling with midi, and set your system properly at first.

With DPC latency checker you should be completely within green range (<500us measured for the whole day). Know that DPC latency checker is just informative, you can find exact tools for measuring DPC latency on this forum. But for start this tool is also good.

  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Re: Latency

I see what you mean by setting the system properly, Kasaudio.
I went to devicemanager-->display adapter, but I'm not seeing any standard VGA option. I see the NVIDIA GeForce GT 230M video card. I can't change its properties, it appears.
If this means anything, I've got two files where you'll hear me strike the keyboard (at 48 samples, and 128 samples), and you'll hear the sounds I'm getting; the delay is not there (well, the same as at 512 or 1024...), but you'll see the parasite noise that I am talking about. Thanks again.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/ca8e0b5/n/Desktop.zip

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.
  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Re: Latency

Well it's interesting. I created a new project. Added a MIDI track. I then set the latency sample at its lowest (48), and I had no problem playing notes. The DPC checker showed that I was always in the green.

When I opened up my older project. I was back in the red. I was using 2 more Gigs of Ram (though my laptop has got 8 gigs available). Also, with just the project opened (no playing, no nothing), I found my cpu to be 96%-100% active! I guess that's another post. But is that even possible??????

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.
  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Re: Latency

To be more precise, as soon as I set the sample rate to 48, with Cubase opened, I'll see a 96-100% CPU activity on my laptop's taskmanager. That's with the project opened; the song isn't being played or anything like that. When I change the sample rate to 1024 or 2048, my taskmanager will show my CPU usage back to 60%. Again, that's just with my Cubase project opened. I've not pressed the play button or anything at all.
Is this normal behavior? Why the CPU increase? Where is the load coming from?

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.

14 Reply by vinark (edited by vinark 2011-04-04 13:56:37)

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
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  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,779

Re: Latency

Being in at 100% with your cpu will always cause DPC to go into the red!
That´s just the laws of physics. If it´s in the green under normal load, that´s fine.  At the lowest latency a project has a higher cpu load then at higher. so try the same project again at 512. If it the works OK it is just a to heavy project for lowest latency. You can just try at what latency it is still working. I prefer 128 as latency. It is small enough to play VSTi´s live, and has less cpu load then lower latency´s. Plus not all VSTi´s work 100% without glitches at sub 128 (a lot do, at low latency´s it is always about finding the compromise between the latency and the cpu load).

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Latency

Tiger wrote that his DPC are *lower* when the CPU is loaded, which is quite possible.

48/96/192 KHz are special cases, so I wouldn't concentrate on that yet. First of all, you should measure the DPCs with your audio interface disconnected and Cubase not running. We want to make sure that we are measuring your hardware setup first.

NVidia drivers are known to cause DPC issues, that's why kas suggested to try the "Standard VGA driver". You do that by choosing "Update drivers" in Device-Manager and then choose the manual installation method and then DEselect the "Show compatible hardware" option. You will lose Aero and everything, but it's only meant to give us a hint at the possible source first.

If the "Standard VGA driver" helps we can go on. This may not be that easy, because we need to find a workaround for the NVidia issues, which are different for different card-driver combinations. You may end up either using Standard VGA mode or buying another card.

  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Re: Latency

Hello all,

Thanks for the replies. I did as was suggested. I replaced my NVIDIA video driver with the standard VGA driver. I then checked the latency without the Fireface, nor with Cubase on. In the green. Then with Fireface and Cubase ON at 48 samples. Also in the green. Playing MIDI, however, still sounded parasitic (at 96 it was better, I have to give you that!).

Then, I returned to my NDIVIA driver. Without Fireface, nor Cubase on: in the green. With Fireface and Cubase on: in the red.

In both cases, the CPU is at 95%+ active.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/ca8f1ae/n/Desktop2.7z

I mean, maybe this thread needs to be moved. The question is again, why is there such a CPU load whenever I change buffer samples? Like I said, I'm not even playing my song. I just opened Cubase.

Thanks again for all your time.

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.
  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Latency

I'd leave the 48 samples aside for the moment to make sure we don't mix separate problems. What happens at 64/128/256 samples with the "Standard VGA driver"? Can you use these settings now?

18 Reply by tigertigertiger (edited by tigertigertiger 2011-04-04 17:17:45)

  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Re: Latency

Hi Timur,

Okay, with VGA:
I'm unable to play at 64 samples. At 128, it's not that bad (hard to quantify, I know). And... I must say, it's pretty damn good at 256 (I've NEVER been able to get to 256 without any of this parasitic noise.

UPDATE...

It's actually the same. As I'm recording MIDI (thus playing all my tracks), it's uncomfortable for me at even 256. Lots of parasitic noise. I can fiddle with my MIDI controller (solo), but that's about it.

Will return in a few hours...

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.
  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Latency

We shouldn't mix Midi in here, but get to that later. But anyway: What Midi controller do you use and is it connected to the Midi ports of the Fireface or is it an USB controller? Are you using MME, DirectMusic or DirectMusic [Emulated] for Midi?

Since this turns out to be more complex we might need a more complex tool to look into it:

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/140263- … interrupt/

  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Re: Latency

Hi Timur,
I'm using EMU's xboard49, and I've connected through the Fireface's MIDI ports.
As for MME, DirectMusic, or DM(emulated), I don't know what this means.

Here is an image of my CPU's usage summary as you've requested (Cubase is closed):

http://img845.imageshack.us/i/dpccpuusagesummary.png/

Hell, I'll finally figure out what sys files are... hehe

And here are a couple of graphs for CPU usage (by processes) after opening up Cubase.

<a href=http://www.filedropper.com/usage><img src=http://www.filedropper.com/download_button.png width=127 height=145 border=0/></a><br /> <div style=font-size:9px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;width:127px;font-color:#44a854;> <a href=http://www.filedropper.com >file upload storage</a></div>
or
http://www.filedropper.com/usage

Seems like turning off powermanagement and wifi capability has little to do with enhancing performance.

The conhost.exe digs the most at 3%.
Cubase, of course, if off the charts. Plugins must be active...

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.
  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Latency

First of all the results of LatencyMon are only an indication, XPerf is the only reliable and very comprehensive source for in-deep analysis. I'm thinking about putting together an easier to use XPerf package, but that may take some time.

DXGKRNL.SYS is a Windows graphic kernel driver. Have a look at the following thread that others are having similar problems with NVidia cards, too. I still suspect your graphic-card to be the culprit.

http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=9469

That running Cubase causes higher DPCs is likely connected to Cubases GUI drawing. So you may have to stay on the "Standard VGA driver" for audio work. You may try two things though: 1) Turn Aero off. 2) Download "PowerMizer Manager" and switch the graphic mode to medium or high performance 3D *permanently*.

AFD.SYS is a Windows network stack driver. Try disabling your network card to see if this lowers the DPC values.

NDIS.SYS is a mixed system driver, can be connected to network and graphics, but other stuff, too (printers). Again try disabling your network card.

IOSTOR.SYS is the Intel Matrix Storage device driver. You can try uninstalling it and have Windows use its own standard driver (which usually works with any non-raid HD controller anyway). That being said the "maximum" value listed doesn't tell much and I don't think that this is a culprit. The Acer laptop of my wife uses the same driver and has lower overall DPCs than my Macbook Pro.

ACPI.SYS this driver polls your battery status every 15 seconds and thus creates a DPC spike up to over 1000 us. You can disable it via Device-Manager -> ACPI compliant battery method.

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Latency

And make sure to install Service Pack 1 and switch to "High Performance" power-scheme.

  • Registered: 2010-12-07
  • Posts: 30

Re: Latency

Hi Timur,
Thank you very much for all of your ideas and the new information. The Cubase GUI drawing remark makes sense (why didn't I think of that). I will follow your advice and see what results.
Regards-

Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53GHz, 2534 Mhz; 8 RAM; Fireface UC; RNC 1776 Compressor; EMU Xboard49.
  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Latency

I'm working on a solution that might work for all/different NVidia cards.

Currently I am already from this:

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?app=core&amp;module=attach&amp;section=attach&amp;attach_rel_module=post&amp;attach_id=26639

To this:

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?app=core&amp;module=attach&amp;section=attach&amp;attach_rel_module=post&amp;attach_id=26640

The remaining large spike is happening often (but not always) when the GPU switches down to 2D power-saving mode. It can easily worked around by using "PowerMizer Manager" to switch off dynamic clock-switching while doing audio work. I'm still working on this, but fear it cannot be fixed via a simple setting like the above results. I do know at least one Quadro driver version that works properly and can be installed on non-Quadro GPUs with a little hacking though.