• From: U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2010-10-23
  • Posts: 27

Topic: Best option for touring live applications?

Hi, i was wondering what would be my best option to use for live sound for a serious world wide touring band. Currently I use a multiface II with the HDSPe card in a Mac Pro quad core tower using Logic. Because I need more than 8 inputs and outputs I added a presounus digimax and everything has been working great. I would like to clean things up a bit in the rack and make them neater and the cables more secure, locking into place, and could also use more physical outputs. Therefore I was considering moving to 3 HDSPe AES cards per mac tower and the new BOB's from RME. That should give me 24 physical inputs and 24 physical XLR outputs for snakes, stereo in-ears, mics, guitars, etc. Stability is also an absolute must because this is a live application. Would this be the recommended way to go? Are there any better options to consider? I plan on doubling up on this set up so I would like to get it right the first time. Thanks for any suggestions and feedback.

Drew

Mid 2010 Mac Pro, 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, OSX 10.10.2, Logic Pro X, 2 Multiface ii HDSPe, Rev. 20, 4.03
  • Jeff
  • Jeff
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Re: Best option for touring live applications?

Hello Drew,

Just to make sure we're on the same page, the BOB-32s are just AES/EBU breakout boxes, not AD/DA converters. You would still need to add your own AD/DA converters to the system. Also, count the available PCIe slots on your Mac tower. ed:

A more streamlined system would be one HDSPe MADI card in the Mac, and a pair of M-Series converters. The MADI system supports 64 in + 64 out at 44.1/48 kHz, 32 in + 32 out at 88.2/96 kHz, or 16 in + 16 out at 176.4/192 kHz.

The M-Series converters are available in 16 in, 16 out, 32 in, or 32 out configurations, and can be daisy-chained for up to 64 in + 64 out.

http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_hdspe_madi.php
http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_m32ad.php
http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_m32da.php

Of course, MADI is not a proprietary format, so you could optionally use MADI-capable converters from another manufacturer, or any converters of your choice via our digital format converters (changing AES/EBU <> MADI, or ADAT <> MADI).

I think you are in the US, you can give me a call to discuss your options at 954-626-0674.

Regards,
Jeff Petersen
Synthax Inc.

Jeff's Website

  • From: U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2010-10-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

Thank you this sounds like the solution to me :-)

Mid 2010 Mac Pro, 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, OSX 10.10.2, Logic Pro X, 2 Multiface ii HDSPe, Rev. 20, 4.03
  • From: U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2010-10-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

I have one more question for you if you don't mind me picking your brain. Using all this RME gear live I will need to run a back up mac in case the one goes down and I have heard of a way it can switch to a second mac even in mid song with no interruption. Somehow they run in tandem I guess but do you know what is needed to accomplish this? Thank you very much for your help.

Mid 2010 Mac Pro, 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, OSX 10.10.2, Logic Pro X, 2 Multiface ii HDSPe, Rev. 20, 4.03
  • Jeff
  • Jeff
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Re: Best option for touring live applications?

We would need more details about what you are trying to do with the system.

Regards,
Jeff Petersen
Synthax Inc.

Jeff's Website

  • From: U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2010-10-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

No problem! The mac(s) are basically acting as a mixer with automation and an effects midi generator to vocal and guitar processors, thereby everything is automated. Logic is controlling everything, routing and mixing including all in-ears. Basically if its a 12 song set it will all be automated in logic in order, push the space bar and off you go, even the light show is computer automated right along with the set. There will be a separate 16Ch snake running out of the D/A to the main house mixing board so basically there are no amps everything is direct, acoustic drums are separate from this setup. So basically the entire band is running through this computer live. If it were to go down, god forbid, I have heard there is a way to have a second mac pick up right where the other left off. I don't count on this happening and highly doubt it ever will but just would like some piece of mind and insurance. Basically both macs would be doing the exact same thing at the same exact time and if needed one would take over if the other fails with no interruption. By failure I guess I would mean a hard drive or software/processor issue, there are many variables. With this set up everything is enclosed into on double wide convenient rack, macs, monitors and all. Fast set up and tear down. Thanks again for the advice.

Mid 2010 Mac Pro, 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, OSX 10.10.2, Logic Pro X, 2 Multiface ii HDSPe, Rev. 20, 4.03
  • Jeff
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Re: Best option for touring live applications?

I have seen this done in a high-end system in a Las Vegas theater, where there is an A/B switch that toggles between two synchronized computers. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what exactly it entails, sorry.

Regards,
Jeff Petersen
Synthax Inc.

Jeff's Website

  • From: U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2010-10-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

No problem, I know its a rare setup. I'll keep searching, Thanks! :-)

Mid 2010 Mac Pro, 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, OSX 10.10.2, Logic Pro X, 2 Multiface ii HDSPe, Rev. 20, 4.03
  • isaac
  • isaac
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Re: Best option for touring live applications?

ambroseent wrote:

No problem, I know its a rare setup. I'll keep searching, Thanks! :-)

You will need a way to sync the two machines (macpros). In the past I've seen this done over midi, timecode and other weird and wonderful ways.

I'm pretty sure there are some commercially available products but last time I looked it was for doing this with two tape machines!!! I think you can set this up in Logic as well.

I think a MTC (midi time code) solution would probably work the best for you. Also you'll need to think about the audio output side of things.

Do you want both systems outputting audio all the time? (easy to check at FOH etc, but requires FOH guy to mute/unmute to change over)

Or a system where the failure of primary starts audio outputting from secondary (only realise it doesn't work when it doesn't! FOH guy can leave secondary channels live all the time)

I would also install a UPS on each system and run them on separate power feeds etc.

The M-16 and M-32 also do midi over MADI I believe.

hope this helps,

Isaac P

10 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2011-10-14 13:49:52)

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

You can also use Midi over LAN (or wireless for the less faint of heart).

Someone once suggested to install something like this for *quickly* changing between the parallel running computers:

http://www.csiro.au/files/images/pr57.jpg

Some kind of automated Gate could also be a quick solution for dropouts.

  • From: Connecticut, USA
  • Registered: 2011-08-01
  • Posts: 376

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

ambroseent wrote:

No problem! The mac(s) are basically acting as a mixer with automation and an effects midi generator to vocal and guitar processors, thereby everything is automated. Logic is controlling everything, routing and mixing including all in-ears. Basically if its a 12 song set it will all be automated in logic in order, push the space bar and off you go, even the light show is computer automated right along with the set. There will be a separate 16Ch snake running out of the D/A to the main house mixing board so basically there are no amps everything is direct, acoustic drums are separate from this setup. So basically the entire band is running through this computer live. If it were to go down, god forbid, I have heard there is a way to have a second mac pick up right where the other left off. I don't count on this happening and highly doubt it ever will but just would like some piece of mind and insurance. Basically both macs would be doing the exact same thing at the same exact time and if needed one would take over if the other fails with no interruption. By failure I guess I would mean a hard drive or software/processor issue, there are many variables. With this set up everything is enclosed into on double wide convenient rack, macs, monitors and all. Fast set up and tear down. Thanks again for the advice.

Hi,
The only way I would trust using a setup like this is to split the audio and MIDI inputs before going into the computers. Then send the analog outputs for each machine independently to the main house mixer. If Logic is doing an automated mix why do you need the 16 channel snake? Perhaps t simply it try to get each system down to 8 analog outputs to the 16 channel snake. The house engineer at this point just needs to swaps mutes between the to 8 channel feeds or if they are using a digital mixer probably just change mixer preset to the set of outputs for machine B. You should not need any sort of time code sync between the machines for this.
I'm not sure I would trust that anyways. I could picture the machines over a long performance drifting apart enough so that if/when one of the systems fails and the switch over happens the song is suddenly beats or bar behind the first machine. I don't think the drummer would like that. smile

Thanks Chris

Chris Ludwig
North East USA Sales | Synthax/RME
www.facebook.com/RMEAmericas
Twitter @RMEAmericas

ChrisLudwig's Website

  • From: U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2010-10-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

I don't think the fist and the red button would be fast enough lol. Is it possible to split MADI coax coming out of the A/D converter to each Mac? I need to run the snake to the house mixer because this monster rack unit contains all the wireless devices as well the band uses on stage, therefore this rack is on the stage not behind the soundboard to control. I know I can remote into the computers off stage as well to make adjustments but trying to avoid that if I can. The switch over would need to be instant as well, no time for taking the mutes off of tracks. I am still picking brains I have heard of this being done in the video world and will post once I find out the solution :-) Thanks for all the replies, very helpful!

Mid 2010 Mac Pro, 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, OSX 10.10.2, Logic Pro X, 2 Multiface ii HDSPe, Rev. 20, 4.03
  • From: U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2010-10-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

Just another thought, if splitting coax isn't an option couldn't one computer get the coax feed and the other the optical off the A/D converter? Not sure if you can send back out to the D/A the same way however.

Mid 2010 Mac Pro, 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, OSX 10.10.2, Logic Pro X, 2 Multiface ii HDSPe, Rev. 20, 4.03

14 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2011-10-17 20:31:46)

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

Did you find a commercially available solution? My preferred solution would be to feed both computers' output through some digital router including a "Watch Dog" signal (ongoing Midi or audio signal going from computer 1 to computer 2). Give the backup computer 2 control over the digital router and make it switch once the watch dog (from computer 1) gets interrupted.

I'd have to check the manual, but doesn't Totalmix allow to load presets via Midi commands? If so you could use any RME interface with enough digital I/Os as digital router and switch routings via Midi/presets.

15 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2011-10-17 20:34:13)

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

Checked the manual and yes, you can load Snapshots via Midi and/or F-keys. So what you need is some application (like a Max/MSP patch) that monitors the watch dog signal and switches accordingly.

  • From: U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2010-10-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

Hi thanks for the info I will look into it. I haven't heard back from the sound engineer I know that works with this type of set up yet but when I do I will post the details. :-)

Mid 2010 Mac Pro, 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, OSX 10.10.2, Logic Pro X, 2 Multiface ii HDSPe, Rev. 20, 4.03
  • From: U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2010-10-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

Ok here is what I found out and there's more to come. You can use a Radial SW8 auto-switcher. Of course your set up will be a maze of cables this way but it will work out as long as you get the computers to clock correctly. Right now I am researching a MADI coax auto switcher which would be much much cleaner. It would work the same way the SW8 does only with MADI coax. Have MADI coax coming out of each computer meet into the switcher and one MADI coax out to the D/A converter. If the clock on the main comp stops transmitting the switcher should automatically transmit the 2nd MADI signal generated by the backup computer. Sounds possible but does this exist? Im looking... Keep you posted.

Mid 2010 Mac Pro, 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, OSX 10.10.2, Logic Pro X, 2 Multiface ii HDSPe, Rev. 20, 4.03

18 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2011-10-21 10:41:12)

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

My solution:

C1 -> HDSPe Madi -> Coax ->
C2 -> HDSPe Madi -> Coax ->

-> Coax + Coax -> RME MADI Bridge -> Coax -> DA
RME MADI Bridge -> Coax or Midi -> C2 (this is for a Midi control signal, see below)

The RME MADI Bridge allows free routing and is remote controllable via Midi. So what you need is a small software (i.e. Max Patch) on C2 that remotely switches the Bridge from C1 to C2 once the the Midi control signal drops). If the RME MADI Bridge's remote Midi supports Midi over MADI the Midi signal can either be transmitted via RME's virtual MIDI driver over the Coax cables, else you need to use standard Midi cables.

No mess of cables, all nice and clean! :-) Maybe some RME guy can clarify if Midi Remote control of the Bridge is possible via Midi over Madi (Coax)?

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

Once I find time I will take a look at Logic's own possibilities to build a simple Midi gate (only owning Logic 8 here, though). Maybe C2 can control C1 via its own instance of Logic (that's running for your automations anyway).

  • From: U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2010-10-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

Cool thanks for the info! I also have Midi being fed out to processors that needs to switch over as well. Almost forgot about that and the SW8 does not do a midi switch over...you think a Midi merger box would work for this?

http://www.amazon.com/MIDI-Solutions-Me … B0002GH8LQ

1 from each computer for each midi feed into these boxes then 1 midi cable to each processor. If comp 1 drops then the comp 2 midi signal keeps going...I think

Mid 2010 Mac Pro, 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, OSX 10.10.2, Logic Pro X, 2 Multiface ii HDSPe, Rev. 20, 4.03
  • From: U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2010-10-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

Timur how fast will that changeover be? I need it to be instant with no interruption. Id hate to get all that gear and then it doesn't work the way i need it too.

Mid 2010 Mac Pro, 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, OSX 10.10.2, Logic Pro X, 2 Multiface ii HDSPe, Rev. 20, 4.03

22 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2011-10-23 14:27:42)

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Re: Best option for touring live applications?

I lack experience with any Midi merger boxes. I imagine they could either add some latency, jitter or at least get into bandwidth problems when too many Midi messages are being merged. One has to try.

The changeover will take up to about 1 ms for Midi latency + whatever time the RME Bridge needs to switch presets/routings. It mostly comes down to the RME Bridge I guess. Maybe some additional fractions of ms for the software to recognize that the carrier/safety signal has dropped. You don't want the switch to fire too early neither, so some safety time might be in order.

Via that Midi merger box you could even have both computers run the Midi switching gate and remotely control the RME Bridge. So that once C2 takes over C1 is able to take back command in case C2 crashes. Or you might prefer to do manual switching once C2 took over. That's up to you.

I really wonder if there is no commercially available solution for doing redundant installations of this size. But then, I wonder about a lot of missing solutions in the audio field that seem so logical to me. HeadScratch

23 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2011-10-23 14:28:06)

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Re: Best option for touring live applications?

BTW, I checked back with MC about the Midi communications. Both computers can communicate via their HDSPes' virtual MIDI over MADI over coax, the Bridge routes that transparently through. Only for the Remote Control of the Bridge you need a DIN Midi cable (from the Computer/HDSPe), because the Bridge cannot process the MADI over MIDI signal for itself (just route through).

  • From: U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2010-10-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: Best option for touring live applications?

Cool thanks, really great information. I'm starting to think the best way to do this for redundancy is to literally double up on everything down to the wireless systems. This way there is always a solution no matter what goes wrong. Just have 2 identical rigs and sync up the computers that run them and use the sw8's for both auto and manual switching. Run each rig to a different breaker. You can't anticipate every problem but this was a good try! :-) I'm taking all the options into consideration, thanks for all your time and research!

Mid 2010 Mac Pro, 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, OSX 10.10.2, Logic Pro X, 2 Multiface ii HDSPe, Rev. 20, 4.03

25 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2011-10-24 21:41:45)

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
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Re: Best option for touring live applications?

The SW8 essentially is the same solution, just in a box and without the nice coax tidiness. It uses a "steady drone signal on track-1" to notice a dropout and then does the switching. So all good and sound, but with the 8 channel cable-clutter restriction.

If there really is no other solution out there I maybe should give this another though in the future. wink