Topic: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Hi all

This is a weird one.

Have been running Sonar X1  and  Reaper  -  as well as tested on my friend Pro Tools 9 rig  -  and on all these systems, the FireFace UC works perfectly  [ crackle-free and pop free ]  at  48 Sample Buffer  -  even with huge VST Synth loads at 48 Sample Buffer, these  3  DAW's  run perfectly.

Now ..... Studio One V2.

With exaclty the same hardware and software setup ...... even with just one instance of Rapture or Ampire or Dimension Pro,  Studio One V2  crackles and pops  big time !!!

Given that with the other  3  DAW's there is no issue  I can only conclude that there is a  BUG / GLITCH  when running Studio One V2 and the RME FireFace UC at 48 Sample Buffer.

Anyone else had this same issue ?

Ben

2

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

That may well be. Sample buffer sizes unequal a power of 2 (48/96/192...) should be avoided anyway. Use 64 or 128 and it works correctly, right?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Studio One has always had a problem with the UC and low buffer sizes.  I have to run at 1024 or higher to prevent crackles and pops even on smaller projects.  128 it's a popcorn machine.

The Presonus developers blame it on USB overhead and how their audio engine works.

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Hi Matthias & Dr Tone

Sadly, Dr Tone is correct.

It needs to be pushed all the way up to  1024  to ensure  crackle / pop  free use with a FFUC  -  whereas  Sonar X1 / Reaper / NTrack / Pro Tools 9  etc......  are all perfeclty happy at 48 Samples with huge VST Synths loads !?!?!?

I hadnt realized that this was a " known '  issue to Presonus.

Their excuse is  VERY  dissappointing  given that their own USB Interfaces  [ AudioBox ]  have  Buffer settings down to  32  Samples  [  I can only assume that they also use a substantial " safety "  buffer to ensure it is glitch-free at 32 Samples  ].

Ben

5

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

And I can't believe the developers are aware of such a statement. Will ask them.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

I have the same issue with the demo Studio One v1 : see this thread.

7 (edited by Timur 2011-11-13 12:39:34)

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Dr Tone wrote:

Studio One has always had a problem with the UC and low buffer sizes.  I have to run at 1024 or higher to prevent crackles and pops even on smaller projects.  128 it's a popcorn machine.

The Presonus developers blame it on USB overhead and how their audio engine works.

Which sounds like nonsense to me. HeadScratch

I own a v1 Studio One Artist and will test that here.

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Hi Timur

If you have a FireFace UC you results / test  at  48 Sample Buffer with multiple VST Synths would be hugely appreciated.

Also, please see Post #5  here:-  http://forums.presonus.com/posts/list/0/16423.page

Its looking like this a  Version 2  " bug " .

Look forward to your testing.

Many thanks,
Ben

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

I will also download a v2 trial for comparison and report back once I can offer some results.

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

ben ifin wrote:

Hi Timur

If you have a FireFace UC you results / test  at  48 Sample Buffer with multiple VST Synths would be hugely appreciated.

Also, please see Post #5  here:-  http://forums.presonus.com/posts/list/0/16423.page

Its looking like this a  Version 2  " bug " .

Look forward to your testing.

Many thanks,
Ben

It's been a problem right from the beginning with Version 1.  I've just given up on it, I was getting no where with them.  I use direct monitoring and keep my buffers up.  It's sad because Studio 1 is one awesome DAW.

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Hi timur,  the problem is playing and recording  polyphonic vst soft synths at 48 sample buffer with a fireface uc.  Huge thanks for trying this out for us.  Ben
h

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Hi Matthias

Just as a total long-shot,  I dont suppose the new  1.013 UC Drivers dated  09/11  fix the Studio One 48 Sample Buffer VST Synth crackling  issue ?

Ben

13 (edited by ben ifin 2011-11-14 11:19:16)

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Just tested - no change.

FireFace UC 1.013  +  Studio One V2  +  4.2gig Intel i7 DAW  +  48 Sample Buffer  +  88.2k / 24 Bit  +  3 (max.)  VST Synth Instances Crackle and Poping !!!

.....as compared to  Sonar X1 / Reaper  etc......

FireFace UC 1.013  +  Other DAW's  +  4.2gig Intel i7 DAW  +  48 Sample Buffer  +  88.2k / 24 Bit  +  25 ( and still going )  VST Synth Instances Perfect  !!!

I'm no expert, but I am certain this is not an RME problem.

Ben

14 (edited by Timur 2011-11-14 13:41:48)

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Currently I am testing a single plugin (both internal and external) in Studio One v1, will go on to v2 later. Curiously I noticed that I never got the license for v1, not even an invoice, but did the payment. So I'm running on trial versions now.

Dr Tone wrote:

Studio One has always had a problem with the UC and low buffer sizes.  I have to run at 1024 or higher to prevent crackles and pops even on smaller projects.  128 it's a popcorn machine.

I am able to make the UC go down to 64 samples with occasional cracks on my setup, it seems susceptible to CPU power-savings though (C1E, dynamic clock-rate changes). 64 samples on the UC roughly corresponds to the same round-trip latency as a FF400 being set to 48 samples, so 48 samples on the UC is *lower* in round-trip latency than a 400 (lower output, but higher input latency to be exact).

Next thing I did was to compare CPU load behavior when running Studio One idle (nothing loaded, playback stopped) via the UC vs. 400 at different buffer sizes. I measured CPU C0 (non idle) states, which reveal much more than what Task-Manager or SO's CPU load meter tell us. For that I turned off multi-threading and forced SO's CPU core affinity to only use CPU0.

Interestingly the FF400 shows the same load behavior for buffer sizes 128-1024 samples and then increases load *slightly* with smaller buffers. The UC shows the same load as the 400 at 128 samples (around 20% C0)! Load *decreases* slightly with bigger buffer sizes (aka better than the 400), but increases *dramatically* with smaller sizes (400: 24% vs. UC: 41%). The latter should be the source of the issues you are experiencing.

Whether that increase if caused by the UC driver, Studio One, or the Windows USB driver (over which the UC driver communicates) I do not know. When I find time I will compare the behavior to Reaper and maybe some other applications. I tried a NI Kore USB audio interface for comparison, but setting that to its lowest buffer of 32 samples + 1 ms USB buffer corresponds more to setting the UC to 128 samples for output latency and 64 samples for input (64-96 on the 400).

To make things even more complex, even with Studio One being forced to a single core (and using my own customized power-profiles) there still is load on multiple cores present. One reason being that there are many more processes running in the background, another reason being how Windows balances load between Studio One, the audio driver and the USB driver. To check for that I also looked at the whole CPU package C0% state and generally found the above tendencies to be correct.

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Just to clarify: This is not exactly a load problem. According to Task-Manager and SO's own CPU meter overall load is as low as 0-2%. Also the whole CPU package's (all cores) C0 (non-idle) percentage stays withtin 2-5% depending on buffer size. Also C0/non-idle state does not necessarily mean that the CPU is really busy doing something.

But whatever is happening under the hood affects the CPU behavior and thus indicates that there are differences either between the busses (USB vs. FW) or drivers.

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Hola,
I have also been testing the S 1 demo on my laptop
Acer travelmate 5720 Win XP Tested systems Studio one will not produce crackle free sound under 256 samples buffer.Cubase and reaper work fine with 64 samples buffer (moderate load) on the same cmp.
According to this post problem w/Studio One Pro and RME babyface Studio One works fine with other audio interfaces. HeadScratch

Cheers

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

It doesn't matter which RME USB interface, Studio One has issues with them all, Babyface, UC and the UFX.

Cubase had zero issues on the same computer, so it's not a configuration issue.  Plus I've tried pretty much everything to reduce the problem but it's a hopeless cause.  Timur, I wouldn't spend too much time on it.

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

I'm always curious about these things and will get in contact with Presonus. What I found out so far is that with USB based RME drivers the corresponding Studio One ASIO thread uses considerably more "context switches" (aka more taxing to the CPU even if you don't see it as classic CPU load). This would be the source for the higher C0 state percentage

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Fantastic work Timur - genuinely and sincerely appreciated.

Good to hear that I  [ and now quite a few others ]  werent hearing things.

Please let us know what Presonus get back to you with - also, in case you dont know, I also started a thread at the Presounus forum here on the same issue:-

http://forums.presonus.com/posts/list/15/16423.page

Many thanks again and please do keep us posted.

Ben

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

I just Installed "Studio One 2 Pro x 64" - my interface is a UFX via USB.
My computer is a ADK Quad Xtreme,
Win 7-Pro x 64
i7 930 2.8GHz Quad Core - overclocked 3.4-3.6GHz
12Gig DDR3 1600 CL8 memory.
I haven't done any recording yet but playing back the Demo songs included with Studio One I could get a clear audio playback on two of the three included Demos at 512 samples but one of the songs had to be played at 1024 samples to prevent the popcorn and cracker-jack sounds.

UFX+ x2 ; Babyface Pro x2; UFX Original;  Windows 10 64 bit ; Intel core i9 9900KS CPU; 64 Gig DDR4

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Hi RuffRider

First the Good news  -  you have a great DAW there - and am very jealous of your UFX.

Now the  [ hopefully temporary ]  Bad news  - you are seeing and getting the exact same problem.

Your DAW - even a much lower powered DAW unit - should easily be able to play the demo songs at 48 samples  " noise-free ".

If you really want to hear the " noise "

- Set your UFX to 88.2k / 48 samples
- Open a new song in S1V2 and set it to  88.2k / 24 Bit
- Load a VST soft-synth - Ampire / Guitar Rig / Mojito / anything   etc..
- engage the monitor / record on your track
- now play something with you midi controller
- what you hear wont be " good "

Do the same with Sonar X1 / Reaper / Pro Tools  etc........ and it will be crystal clear with huge loads of VST synths at the same settings.

The fact that the RME USB units work perfectly with every other DAW at ultra-low latencies ......... but dont with S1V2 tels me the problem is not with RME.

Hopefully  Matthias / RME are already speaking with Presonus to resolve this issue a.s.a.p.

Ben

22

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Yes, we are already in contact. Please give us both some time to work this out.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Hi Matthias

Thats really great news !!!

These forums - yours / RME's generous help on these forums - and your rock solid drivers  are *THE*  reasons myself and several of my colleagues crossed over to RME interfaces  some  18 months ago and we have not for a second regretted the move.

Many thanks again,
Ben

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

MC wrote:

Yes, we are already in contact. Please give us both some time to work this out.

That is great news.  I just wish they would have contacted you guys a year ago when I first pointed out the issue to them.

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

I'm not convinced yet that it is a RME USB specific issues. We won't know until we find someone with an USB interface that in *reality* allows as low latencies/buffers as the RME USB drivers (preferably with a similar number of I/Os).

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

This was posted on the Presonus Forum by a user of the Presonus 1818 VSL. By looking at his reply concerning the test. His New Presonus USB device did no better then RME! This issue effects Fireface 800 - Firewire as well as USB! I have the same issues with my Fireface 800 in S1V2 Pro. Thanks Ben for bringing some of these issues to my attention!

Thanks,
Randy


benifin wrote:
Hi gospeltunes

1818 VSL is a very nice unit as is the FireFace UC.

Could you please perform the following 2 very quick tests with your 1818VSL - it will only take you a minute or so for each test:-


TEST 1 - 32 SAMPLE BUFFER

- Set your 1818VSL to play and record at 88.2k / 32 samples
- Open a new clean empty song in S1V2 and set it to 88.2k / 24 Bit
- Load any VST soft-synth - Ampire / Guitar Rig / Mojito / anything etc..
- engage the monitor / record on your track
- now play something with you midi controller and also record it


TEST 2 - 48 SAMPLE BUFFER

- Set your 1818VSL to play and record at 88.2k / 48 samples
- Open a new clean empty song in S1V2 and set it to 88.2k / 24 Bit
- Load any VST soft-synth - Ampire / Guitar Rig / Mojito / anything etc..
- engage the monitor / record on your track
- now play something with you midi controller and also record it


For *both* tests:-

=> do you hear any pops / crackling when you are playing the midi controller ?

=> do you hear any pops / crackling when you play back the track you have recorded ?


Your testing information would be quite crucial in determinig if this problem *ONLY* relates to RME units *OR* if it affects all USB units at ultra-low-latencies.

Many thanks in advance.

Ben


The results of Test 1:

I followed instructions, loaded a grand piano from Komplete 7, and I got nothing but strange high pitch noises during monitoring, recording, and playback.


The results of Test 2:

The 1818 won't let you set the ASIO buffer size to 48, it only list 32, 64, 128, 256, 5120, 1024, and 2048 as possible choices.

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Seems that I should take a look over at that forum, because several things are somewhat mixed up here.

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Hi Matthias !

I know its only been  7  days  but was wondering / hoping  that there may have been some progress on this issue between RME and Presonus ( ? )

Only asking because until its resolved, using my RME FireFace UC with Studio One V2 at  sub-1024 sample latencies is still crackly - plus at 1024, because I do a lot of VST synth and Guitar rig work, its just way too  " laggy " .

Either way, many thanks for begining to address this issue.

All the best,
Ben

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

On their forum Presonus acknowledged that it's an issue of Studio One that also affects other audio interfaces.

AFAIK it was our problem (btw: the same as with other audio interfaces like NI's or Steinbergs), and Wolfgang fixed it with the next update.

30

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

We had sent them a Fireface UC, Timur some tons of measurements - so it all worked out!

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

Thanks Matthias  and  Timur

The speed and helpfulness with which you have responded is awsome and genuinley appreciated.

Mant thanks again and all the best,
Ben

Re: Studio One Version 2 + FireFace UC ..... BUG at 48 Sample Buffer .

PreSonus has released an update - version 2.0.3 - which they say has fixed the problem with the sample buffer.

UFX+ x2 ; Babyface Pro x2; UFX Original;  Windows 10 64 bit ; Intel core i9 9900KS CPU; 64 Gig DDR4