Thank Matthias

Interestingly, Reaper reports a 1183 sample delay, which is not a negative delay value, however logic reports -13samples.

So you seem to be saying cubase + rme products are not suitable to be used together when using external effects?

*edit* after some research it seems not only RME interfaces are affected by this, thanks for pointing me in the right direction Matthias.

is this when you ping using the plugin, or "get delay" from the vst connections panel?

Cubase still can't ping my external fx, but they're fine with logic and reaper.

Hi MC

I don't quite follow. I'm using analogue I/O on the multiface for my effects.
Cubase can't ping them at all, but logic shows an offset of -13 which is a negative value.

Here are my loopback results using analogue i/o and alternatively totalmix on the multiface:

Cubase Loopback:
-13 samples using analogue
-90 samples using totalmix loopback

(the recorded audio is -13 or -90 samples EARLY depending i/o method)

Cubase FX Ping (analogue):
If i choose "get user delay" from vst connections = 1.06ms (51) but resets to zero when using the external fx plugin ping function.

Logic Loopback:
-13 samples with analogue
-90 samples using totalmix

Logic FX ping (analogue)
-13 samples

So your MF 2 shows -13 samples under OS X - we will check that. But basically this is no big deal. If changed so that you get 0 you would still see a negative delay (77 samples) when using the digital ports. It's the way it works...

Hi,

In Cubase/Devices/VST Audio System dialog it's possible
to set positive or negative delay/samples under
Adjust for Record Latency

look for the Audio Loopback test on Steinberg FTP server
ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Test_P … k_Test.zip

hope it helps

regards S-EH

From what I gather, the RME Driver should be reporting the true analog I/O latencies to Cubase.  This means that as long as Cubase adheres to these reported offsets, an analog I/O loop WILL report "0" as Cubase is correctly using RME's reported analog values.  Your -13 sample offset is likely a Mac driver issue as Matthias hinted at fixing (reporting the incorrect AD/DA offsets to the host).

I've also had issues with using digital I/O on the "hybrid" RME products (any RME PC Interface that has analog AD/DA and digital I/O - the driver will always report the analog I/O latency) when the other AD/DA converters are "quicker" than the RME's built in AD/DA conversion.  This is where a negative delay would be needed, and Cubase cannot currently accommodate this AFAIK.

I would LOVE to see a way to report the analog and digital I/O independently, but ASIO 2.0 does not support this (so RME can't really "fix" it in the driver) - and I believe this is the only way to solve the issue apart from Cubase adding individual offsets for each input and output connection.

The only way I came up with was to have RME add the ability to toggle the reported AD/DA latency in their driver.  If you run into a situation where you get a negative offset using 3rd party AD/DA converters through an RME PC Interface, swap the RME driver to the "Report Digital I/O ASIO Latency", and then the offset would naturally become positive at that point (but then the RME's Analog I/O is no longer sample-accurate for regular I/O needs including record offset placement - might not be an issue depending on your specific circumstance).

There is not currently a perfect solution - Using AD/DA's with varying delays will always be a kludge under ASIO 2.0 AFAIK.  This issue is not as pronounced on the "Ditigal only" boxes like the Digiface and MADI cards - but I still have issues over MADI due to my setup (I run two SSL Alphalinks, one Alphalink feeds the other via ADAT which adds like 4-6 samples of latency compared to the Alphalink that is connected directly to the MADI card).  Then, I specify the total analog I/O latency (above and beyond the ASIO's reported digital latency) in Cubase/Nuendo's "Record Offset Placement" field for sample-accurate overdubs.  Not perfect, but as close as I can get with ASIO 2.0 and Nuendo...

All correct, Randy. Let me just add that under OS X (this topic) the situation is the same - only one offset value for all I/Os, and this one can not be changed on the fly.

Well I'm still struggling with this. Seems the latest driver update didn't address the issue.

Anyway some new discoveries..

cubase can NOT ping external effects via the multiface 2 at 44.1 or 48khz

however at 88.2 and 96khz cubase is able to get a ping… any idea why this might be?

Most of my work is done at 48khz, so I'd actually like it to work at my chosen sample rate, although I suppose a higher sample rate is a workaround for now.

Since its easier for me to change hardware than DAW at this point due to a working in a heavy deadline environment,  I'm investigating other available interfaces since unfortunately I can't get any explanation about what's going on from either RME or Steinberg.

This doesn't explain why cubase can't ping external effects with the multiface. This means I can't even use external effects as inserts, let alone in parallel.

If what you say is true though, that's rather disappointing and not a practical way to work, it is odd that it was not mentioned in this thread.  Perhaps it is timeous that I find a replacement for the multiface.

Thanks

I'm not convinced that there is no brand of convertor that can handle parallel compression, I'm demoing a prism orpheus this week so I'l post my results with that.

If the method of re-converting the original signal is the only way I guess I'll have to adapt.. or get a mixing desk and go more analogue ;-)

Ok, so I guess this is one of the downsides of digital/analogue hybrid setups that requires a workaround (or a mixing desk)

Thanks for all the input so far.

At 88.2 and 96khz I'm able to ping in cubase (still a mystery why)

Parallel compression is generally working at those sample rates when cubase is able to get a ping, although I have noticed some other odd behavior.
For example if i add an external insert at 88.2 and ping, I get a result between 73 and 75. I often have to perform the ping a few times to get a result that doesn't cause noticeable phase smearing.

If i add a 2nd external effect in series, the ping on both plugins drops to 25, I'm not sure what to make of that, but nevertheless I am able to use external plugs (even in parallel it seems) at these higher sample rates with repeated pinging needed to get accurate sounding alignment. Vinark's solution of having a fixed delay on a bus track wouldn't work because it seems the ping results are not consistent.

What would be great is a driver fix so that cubase can at least ping at lower sample rates and hopefully also improve the ping accuracy at the higher rates.

Yes, don't worry.

OK so 8 months after first reporting this and no fix forthcoming, I decided to sell my Multiface2 and get the new UAD Apollo, which works perfectly with cubase and external effects.
I do feel somewhat let down that RME never addressed this. It's disappointing that the MF2 never got a proper driver that accurately reports it's latency figures.
I've been an RME loyalist for years but now have decided to give another vendor a chance.
That said the MF2 was a rock solid workhorse for years and besides the latency issue, never gave me a moment's trouble.

It's not working correctly here either. I am trying to do parallel compression on some drum tracks with an external compressor, and I am getting phasing. Cubase keeps reporting 0ms... I have heard this is RME's fault... I have heard it is Steinberg's fault. I don't really care who's fault it is... RME, please talk to Steinberg! Maybe if you work together, you guys can come up with a fix on it... very frustrating...

Ok... In the meantime this is what I did:

I used the "test generator" plugin to send a sine wave out, flip phase on the return from the outboard gear, and adjust the delay manually until I have silence... I'm feeling very annoyed that I have to do this... a very slow process that should be instant if hardware insert delay compensation was working correctly. PLEASE FIX THIS SOON.

Thanks,
Todd

I have 3 cards installed in this machine...  that's a lot of money invested...  very frustrating to have this problem for so very long.

HDSPe AIO
HDSPe AES (x2)

1) Windows 7 64-bit
2) Analog compressor
3) I use both cards for external devices, but in this case, it is using the AES through Apogee AD-16X and DA-16X converters
4) See #3

   When I manually measured the delay by doing a sine wave phase cancellation process, I ended up at approximately 13ms or so.

   Is all of this because Steinberg is not supporting negative delay values?  Maybe you guys can convince them somehow to support this...  I have posted several times on their forum, but I have no idea if they are reading my posts or not.

So the problem really is with Cubase and Steinberg then.  Regardless of what delay is reported by RME hardware, Cubase ought to be able to adjust for it.  Cubase sends out the "ping" signal...  Cubase ought to be able to calculate it's own delay compensation by measuring when the ping signal returns - regardless of the hardware.

It can't, but there are tools available that can. For example Ceentrance latency test, or the RTL Utility from oblique. Note that these measure the whole latency, so you might have to calculate the difference for Cubase yourself.