Topic: HDSPe ExpressCard + Sonnet Echo Thunderbolt Adapter problems - Win7 PC
Hello All !
I am a long-time RME user under both Windows and MAC OS.
I have owned several different RME systems since year 1999 and loved them all.
My most current two systems are HDSP and HDSPe with Multiface, Digiface, PCI, PCMCIA and ExpressCard.
In my 24-channel mobile recording rig I use ExpressCard driving a Digiface and 3 banks of Mic pres over ADAT.
Few weeks ago I sold my old laptop (which had an ExpressCard slot) and got a brand-new one
(a Lenovo s430) with Thunderbolt but no ExpressCard.
To continue using RME system with the new machine I also bought Sonnet Echo Exprescard-to-Thunderbolt adapter
(a plain one not a PRO version) hoping I'd be able to make it all work on a PC laptop under Win 7 64bit.
I was aware before I got the Sonnet adapter that Windows PCs are not officially supported.
I went ahead regardless, hoping for the best (where would all of us be without early adopters, huh ?).
Sadly, most of the time this setup doesn't work, and when it occasionally does,
it works erratically and cannot be considered a dependable solution for any serious recording work :(
I'm not sure which variable is the most likely culprit.
My hope is to get some insightful comments from those who may know better.
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My problematic setup is :
Lenovo s430 (latest BIOS = GAET35WW v1.12)
Intel HM77 express Mobile chipset.
Intel i-5 3210M CPU with Hyperthreading enabled.
Win 7 Home premium 64bit
16Gb RAM
RME ExpressCard 34 driving either a Multiface or a Digiface.
RME Driver version 3.29
RME Expresscard firmware 18
RME DIGIcheck v5.5
Sonnet Echo ExpressCard to TB adapter
Apple Thunderbolt cable
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Here are the various (random) behaviours I'm experiencing (everything is connected before I start up the machine from cold) :
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Scenario 1 (least frequent - I'd say about one in 10 attempts) :
Everything works.
Card is properly recognised.
I get audio In and Out. Playback and recording of up-to 24 tracks works flawlessly.
----
Scenario 2 (random - I'd say about 4 in 10 attempts) :
Despite the red "Host Error" LED turning off on the front panel of Digiface the card gets only partially recognised
ie: it appears inside Device Manager but with an exclamation mark as a "problem device".
The error message reads : "This device cannot find enough free resources that it can use. (Code 12)
If you want to use this device, you will need to disable one of the other devices on this system"
No audio In or Out, no access to RME Mixer or RME Card Settings applet.
----
Scenario 3 (most frequent - I'd say about 6 in 10 attempts) :
Card is not recognised at all, ie: it does not appear inside Device Manager at first after cold boot.
Forcing the Device Manager to "Scan for Hardware Changes" results in the card being found.
However, despite the red "Host Error" LED turning off on the front panel of Digiface the card, inside the Device Manager,
appears as in the above Scenario 2 ie : with an exclamation mark listed as a "problem device".
The same error message reads : "This device cannot find enough free resources that it can use. (Code 12)
If you want to use this device, you will need to disable one of the other devices on this system"
No audio In or Out, no access to RME Mixer or RME card Settings applet.
====
Irrespective of which scenario occurs, here is some common behavior that applies to all cases :
1 - Sonnet Adapter itself gets recognised faultlessly every single time.
2 - Red "Host Error" LED on the front panel of Digiface turns off every time during system startup
regardless whether the card gets recognised with errors or gets recognised and is working fine.
The exception is the case as in Scenario 3 above, when the card does not get recognised initially.
At that point the red "Host Error" LED stays on until Device Manager is forced to "Scan for Hardware Changes",
which finds the card (but with errors, as in Scenario 2). The red LED turns off when the card is "found".
3 - Even if the card isn't recognised on startup and doesn't show up in Device Manager it is still available from "Safely Remove Hardware" taskbar applet.
That's just weird. It seems the machine can "see" the card on some levels but not on others.
4 - After the card got recognised with errors, if one chooses to remove it using "Safely Remove Hardware" taskbar applet- a BSOD follows :
5 - In contrast - if the card did get recognised and was working fine, removing it using "Safely Remove Hardware" taskbar applet works fine :
However, it seems that, in any case, the ejection disconnects the whole Sonnet Adapter not just the card.
After the ejection the Sonnet Adapter appears under Device Manager as a "problem device".
I tend to think this is normal with Windows machines as now that the device has been ejected it has to be reconnected to function properly again.
If one tries to re-insert the card into Sonnet Adapter again after successful ejection - nothing happens.
Unplugging the Thunderbolt Cable clears the Sonnet entry from Device Manager.
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Things (and combinations of) I have tried (without success) to resolve the issue :
- Disabled (in BIOS) all possible on-board hardware devices (everything except Thunderbolt port) to free-up machine resources.
- Try another Sonnet Echo Adapter (a PRO, PCI 2.0 version).
- Try another Apple Thunderbolt Cable.
- Upgraded ExpressCard firmware to latest v 18.
- Plug the ExpresCard into Sonnet Adapter AFTER the machine cold-boot.
- Downgraded RME driver to v 3.2.7.0 and 3.2.4.0
All of the above to no avail, ie : I cannot achieve a configuration where card gets recognised without errors EVERY time I cold-boot :(
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Things I have thought of, but haven't tried yet (please comment on their validity/usefulness) :
- Run everything under 32 bit version of Win 7 to force the use of 32-bit RME driver.
- Run everything under Win 8 (either 32 bit or 64 bit) to see if Win 8 is perhaps more Thunderbolt-friendly.
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General thoughts (please comment on validity) :
I seem to think that Windows versions prior to v8 do not officially support Thunderbolt (can anybody please comment on that ?).
I took the plunge knowing this, but hoping that, since Thunderbolt appears to Windows as a PCI device
as long as motherboard chipset driver provides support for TB chip, it "should" work nevertheless.
As my experience demonstrates - it only sort-of works, and very randomly at best.
In my case - the Sonnet Adapter itself appears as a simple PCI-to-PCI bridge with no erors in Device Manager and is not asking for any drivers.
This makes me think that the Adapter does indeed work as transparently as it promised to do.
Perhaps RME drivers could be tweaked somehow to improve card recognition when used in this configuration over Thunderbolt ?
I don't expect hot-pluggability.
I understand that, unlike MAC OS, Windows driver model may not allow for that - that's cool with me.
All I really want is this setup to work such that the RME ExpressCard gets recognised EVERY time I boot the machine.
After reading through Tom's Hardware's experiences with Thunderbolt on an MSI PC desktop board under native Windows 7
- I am most inclined to think that changes/upgrades to machine's BIOS may be the ultimate answer to the teething problems I'm seeing.
That would be bad news for me, though, as it's not realistic to expect Lenovo to cater for niche requirements,
even assuming I could somehow get them to look into it.
All the while I do sincerely hope that RME driver may allow for specific tweaks to better facilitate Thunderbolt operation under Windows.
I am being realistic, though, and appreciate just how many different variables are involved here :
Beginning with BIOS, followed by the Thunderbolt chip itself, followed by Windows, then the Intel and RME drivers,
then onto the chips in the Thunderbolt cable, through the silicon inside Sonnet right up to RME card itself at the end of that chain.
I would love to hear Matthias' thoughts/comments on all that.
I invested a lot of money in RME hardware over the years.
I love the performance and stability, and I evangelise about it to all who care to listen
(with a few people happily buying RME gear based on either my recommendation or seeing it work for me).
At this point I'd like to ask someone knowledgeable at RME to help me shed some light on the issues I described.
To get some love back would be greatly appreciated.
Ultimately - I'd like to see a new product : a native Thunderbolt version of Digiface with, say, 8 ADAT I/Os for total of 32 tracks
at 96kHz over S-MUX or 64 at normal sample rates. (Light)pipe dreams - I know ... ;)
Meanwhile, I am inclined to do all I can to make this setup work.
Here are 3 System Information .nfo files exported while the setup was in each of the states described above :
1 - System Info captured while the card was recognised and working properly (see Scenario 1 above):
2 - System Info captured while the card was recognised but with errors (see Scenario 2 above) :
3 - System Info captured while the card was not recognised :
I very much hope that someone will be able to analyse these and suggest something I haven't tried or thought of yet.
My regards
martin
