Topic: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

Currently, I am running XLR to 1/4" cables from my UA LA-610 preamp into the front panel TRS jack, as this is how I hooked the preamp up to my old FF800.  After much confusion, I realized I needed to click "Inst" to enable the TRS input.  But I am concerned this is not the ideal way to do it, since the jack is apparently looking for a high impedance signal, and the gain on the channel strip changes to "10".  Is this (negatively) affecting the signal in any way (i.e. not ideal gain staging), or am I using it truly as a line input, the same as the rear 1/4" inputs?  Alternatively, would it be better to connect the preamp to the front XLR input, or does that mean I'm running it through the UFX's mic preamp? 

Thank you,
Dave

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

Anybody?  I'd love to get a response on this.

Thanks,
Dave

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

I would hook the 1/4 trs (balanced) to the back inputs 1-8 and switch the input to +4

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

Thanks, but the rear inputs are in use already.  My question is regarding the best way to patch external preamps into the front inputs, as I need those as well.

Dave

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

you can plug it into the front input but you will have less headroom,  You will have to watch you don't clip the input. your gain settings will probably be low on the LA-610.Depending what kind of mic or what the source is. Is there a 1/4 inch output? if so use that.  It actually might sound better to use the XLR input of the UFX. You have to experiment.

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

Thanks.  I am actually going XLR to 1/4" TRS (balanced) out of the LA-610.  I tried XLR-XLR, but there was less headroom that way on the front panel of the UFX.

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

The output of LA-610 (at least the MkII) is a balanced output at a nominal level of +4dBu, therefore with a nominal peak level of +14dBu (in American practice), but is capable of a maximum of +23dBu.   As the XLR on the front is only specified for a maximum of +12dBu, then it is quite capable of being clipped by normal operation of the LA-610.

The front TS input is unbalanced and high impedance (800Kohm) but will accept a specified maximum level of +21dBu.  Transformers like to see a lower value of impedance - somewhere between 1000 and 5000 ohms.  Also, a desirable 'sound' often required devices like th LA-610 to be driven heavily.

A good approach would be to place a 12 to 15dB attenuator between the output of the LA-5610 and the XLR input of the UFX. As recommended elsewhere in this forum, the Shure inline attenuators:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6 … uator.html

are convenient if you are unable to design and construct your own (and there are similar cheaper products available).   These also have the advantage of an input impedance of about 1500 ohm which could make the LA-610 feel fairly comfortable, and allow it to be safely driven to its full capabilities if required without exceeding the input capabilities of the UFX XLR in.

On a side note, if you are using it on the rear TRS inputs, the sensitivity should be set to Low Gain (maximum input +19dBu) rather than +4 (maximum input +13dBu) for the reasons outlined above.

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

Yes!  This is completely right - thank you for precisely understanding the issue and recommending the attenuators. I'm hoping the use use of attenuators doesn't degrade the signal in any way - I have -12db XLR pads and will try using them and listen for any issues.  But if there is a technical answer to this, I'd appreciate that information. 

I feel the UFX should have allowed for switchable impedance, balanced TRS inputs on the front panel, and also that to represent them as TRS in the manual and on the front panel LED labels is misleading, but I suppose nothing can be done about it now...

Many thanks,
Dave

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

Passive attenuators will not degrade the sound, unless they have faulty components or are badly built.   Metal film resistors and proper soldering practices will deliver perfect results.

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

Thanks for the tip for the passive attenuators Panatrope!

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

That is correct assuming the pad's I/O impedance is conducive to the connected gear (might not want to use a Low-Z Mic pad on a preamp output as it will likely load the output down too low).  If in doubt - use your ears - good is good...

I regularly use passive DIY XLR-Barrel pads on the outputs of my colorful preamps to allow me to drive them into light (or heavy) saturation w/o clipping the AD inputs.  I have a variety of -6dB 1K pads, -6dB 600 Ohm pads, and a bunch of -14dB low-z Mic pads (they sometimes surprise me on the preamp transformer output - so make sure you experiment).  There aren't many A/D's that will take +28dBu and beyond w/o clipping - so padding is almost a necessary evil if you want to get these hot/colorful preamps in their "comfort zone" wink

I'll probably make some -9 or -10dB pads in the 1K Ohm (input) range as the -6dB's can be too gentle (not enough pad) and the -14dB Mic Pads are often too much and a bit too low on the impedance (like 220Ohms!) to keep the output transformers happy (loading them down kills some of the extreme high-end response).

Here is a link to a calculator to DIY custom pads:

http://www.grahambrock.com/t_h_pad.htm


cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

I've been using the Naiant pads, but they're mic level impedance, so I guess I'll order a couple of line attenuators.  Anyone used the Naiant pads before?  They seem to be well made.

Thanks all!

13 (edited by panatrope 2011-05-05 12:10:47)

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

Randyman... wrote:

That is correct assuming the pad's I/O impedance is conducive to the connected gear (might not want to use a Low-Z Mic pad on a preamp output as it will likely load the output down too low).  If in doubt - use your ears - good is good...

According to the the LA-610 specs, and typical of the era, 600 ohms was the standard line transfer impedance.  Its actual source impedance is less than this, but the output spec says min. 600 ohm load.   Most of the time equipment like this was terminated in one or more line-in bridging inputs (nominal impedance 10K ohm).  1500 ohm load is a good compromise between the two cases, and while presenting a suitably low impedance to the XLR input.  But, as advised, listen.  It may perform more to your liking if it is actually terminated in 600ohm.  To achieve this, simply parallel a 1000 ohm resistor across the output of the LA-610, in parallel with the 1500 ohm attenuator.  The frequency and phase response of the output transformer is what is most likely affected by the termination impedance - but there, you can load according to taste!

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

14 (edited by Gorwel 2011-11-24 18:58:46)

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

I'm new here so I hope I'm using this forum correctly!
Thank you panatrope - I agree with istation's 'Yes!  This is completely right - thank you for precisely understanding the issue' as I have been trying to get this sorted myself so that I can utilise all 12 inputs.
I don't quite understand the reference to Max input level as +12 dBu for the XLRs on 9-12 though. Is this the level for 0dBfs i.e. limit of the AtoD or the max for the mic preamp itself i.e. if I set the gain to zero in TotalMix is it possible that I may exceed the headroom of the preamp well below 0dBfs?
I'm hoping to get by without attenuators by routing into these inputs via a desk and trimming the fader.
Hope this makes sense.
Best,
Gorwel

UFX/MacMini OS 10.15.7/Logic Pro 10.6.3/Plugin Alliance

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

+12dBu is the highest level that the XLRs will accept for 0dBfs, ie., without distortion.  Up to that level you will not exceed the headroom of the signal path.  It just so happens that with the preamp set to 0dB gain, that is the maximum level that the A-D converter can handle.

15dB pads are a very convenient value in this case, as this means that the XLRs inputs can then accept +27dBu, which means most (American) professional gear designed for a maximum output of +24dBu can be accommodated with 3dB to spare.  That is, the equipment output will go into distortion before the input.

Note that while most pads are designed for 'mic' levels, their ratings will accommodate 'line' levels.   Realise that +27dBu corresponds to 0.5 watt into 600 ohms.  Check the power rating specs for the attenuator.  But as an example, if the input impedance (resistance) of the pad is 1500 ohms, then a signal level of +27dBu (15V rms) across 1500 ohm is 0.15W dissipation.  As the pad is balanced, most of this will be dissipated across two series input resistors, so the power dissipated in each is about 75mW.  Most resistors have a minimum rating of a quarter watt namely 250mW, so in this sort of use they will be expected to handle line levels quite happily.  But check the specs, anyway.

And make sure phantom power is turned off - most analog devices don't like encountering 48V phantom on their outputs.

Trimming the analog outputs on the desk will slightly degrade the signal to noise ration of the desk's output, but if the reference output level can be set to 'consumer' levels (nominal level of -10dBV) this will work.  Remember that if accidentally driven hard, the input can still clip so always check the level in TotalMix or DigiCheck.

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

16 (edited by Gorwel 2011-11-25 10:06:42)

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

panatrope wrote:

+12dBu is the highest level that the XLRs will accept for 0dBfs, ie., without distortion.  Up to that level you will not exceed the headroom of the signal path.  It just so happens that with the preamp set to 0dB gain, that is the maximum level that the A-D converter can handle.

Thanks for this - that's useful to know. I think the best workaround for me is to reserve these inputs for things where large transients are less likely so that I can avoid reducing the level at the desk.

panatrope wrote:

Remember that if accidentally driven hard, the input can still clip so always check the level in TotalMix or DigiCheck.

I haven't started investigating DigiCheck yet but I take it that the meters in Totalmix and Logic are designed to catch any stray transients i.e. if there are no overloads registered during a take, I'm OK?

Best,
Gorwel

UFX/MacMini OS 10.15.7/Logic Pro 10.6.3/Plugin Alliance

17 (edited by Gorwel 2011-11-25 18:18:16)

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

I can see that the metering is dual function now!

UFX/MacMini OS 10.15.7/Logic Pro 10.6.3/Plugin Alliance

Re: What's the best way to hook external preamps into front panel of UFX?

panatrope wrote:

+12dBu is the highest level that the XLRs will accept for 0dBfs, ie., without distortion.  Up to that level you will not exceed the headroom of the signal path.  It just so happens that with the preamp set to 0dB gain, that is the maximum level that the A-D converter can handle.

If I hit 'Inst' in TotalMix this seems to allow input from the XLR too (though 0dB gain not available). What's the function of this 'switch'? It changing impedance perhaps?
Thanks,
Gorwel

UFX/MacMini OS 10.15.7/Logic Pro 10.6.3/Plugin Alliance