1 Topic by gepardcv (edited by gepardcv 2018-04-25 04:48:59)

  • Registered: 2018-04-25
  • Posts: 13

Topic: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

I have been trying to use an ADI-2 DAC with a Windows 10 Home system (version 1709, build 16299.402). USB audio cuts out fairly often (several times a minute). It cuts out more frequently with a higher CPU load, but also happens just when browsing in Chrome and playing music through Tidal.

The driver is Madiface 09653. I tried using the built-in Windows USB2 driver instead, and it does not work at all (the USB device errors out with "the device needs further installation", same as reported here: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=27028).

All "audio enhancements" are turned off.

These audio drops do not occur with other DACs or other USB audio devices, only with the ADI-2 DAC, and only with Windows. The DAC works fine with iOS and macOS. The same Windows system plays audio fine through other DACs and other audio devices.

The drops occur when the DAC is connected to any USB port.

I tried increasing the buffer size to 2048 samples in the madiface settings. Dropouts still occur. I also tried switching between 44.1k and 48k sample rates, in case the playback application (Tidal) is sending an unexpected sample rate. Dropouts still occur.

There is another thread on this forum about this problem (link edited out because the forum software only allows one link per post), but I do not speak or read German, so cannot follow the full extent of its recommendations. Those parts I could read referred to problems relating to Nvidia drivers. The machine in question does indeed have an Nvidia GTX 970 GPU (latest drivers, 391.35). If this is an Nvidia problem however, it does not explain why every other audio device I use with the machine works fine.

I have rebooted the machine and tried reconnecting the device. I also uninstalled and reinstalled the madiface driver. I tried two different USB cables. Dropouts still occur.

Please let me know what other information I can provide to help you debug the Windows driver.

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

For testing you can change the graphic-driver to Microsoft's Standard VGA driver via Device-Manager. Could you provide the link to the German post again?

  • Registered: 2018-04-25
  • Posts: 13

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

Did a bit more testing. Unrelated to the Nvidia driver. It is related to plugging the device into a (powered) USB hub. I thought I tested that before, but apparently not.

As other USB audio devices I have work perfectly this way, and the ADI-2 works perfectly through the same hub with the macOS built-in UAC2 support, by process of elimination, this must be a problem with the madiface driver.

This is the German thread, BTW: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=25381

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,183

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

Best strategy is to use a dedicated USB port with supported chipset to connect your recording interface.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2016-12-30
  • Posts: 197

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

gepardcv wrote:

Did a bit more testing. Unrelated to the Nvidia driver. It is related to plugging the device into a (powered) USB hub. I thought I tested that before, but apparently not.

As other USB audio devices I have work perfectly this way, and the ADI-2 works perfectly through the same hub with the macOS built-in UAC2 support, by process of elimination, this must be a problem with the madiface driver.

This is the German thread, BTW: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=25381


hmm, i have tried everything so far but can't get it to work properly, ordering a new unit soon,
to test if maybe it's a hardware problem.

6 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,582

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

gepardcv wrote:

Did a bit more testing. Unrelated to the Nvidia driver. It is related to plugging the device into a (powered) USB hub. I thought I tested that before, but apparently not.

As other USB audio devices I have work perfectly this way, and the ADI-2 works perfectly through the same hub with the macOS built-in UAC2 support, by process of elimination, this must be a problem with the madiface driver.

The audio interface's driver has no clue how the unit is connected over USB. It is Windows' own USB driver that handles all this. So if you think you have a 100% reproducable way of showing such a hub problem then you have to complain at Microsoft. As this will most probably not work simply try a different hub, I am pretty sure most will not show this behaviour.

These days most people use hubs all the time, which includes us developers. Simple reason is that everyone turns from working with desktop PCs to notebooks, and these come with only one or two ports. All our hubs don't show any problems, and they range from very cheap to medium price only.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2018-04-25
  • Posts: 13

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

I understand your point about the OS's USB interface providing the audio interface with data. Still, that doesn't explain why other DACs do not skip when connected to the same hardware and the same OS. Other audio devices have to deal with the same low-quality Microsoft USB interface, but somehow avoid skipping.

Maybe other audio devices buffer more samples? I have the madiface set to 2048, as high as it goes, but maybe 4096 is needed.

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,778

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

The buffer size is for asio. Are you using asio?
Device compatibility is somewhat of a nightmare. Even swapping a cable might help or not. I have an digidesign mbox I use for its mic pres and it is unusable because of noises on all but 2 cheap laptops. Not expensive desk or laptops.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

9 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,582

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

gepardcv wrote:

I understand your point about the OS's USB interface providing the audio interface with data. Still, that doesn't explain why other DACs do not skip when connected to the same hardware and the same OS. Other audio devices have to deal with the same low-quality Microsoft USB interface, but somehow avoid skipping.

Maybe other audio devices buffer more samples? I have the madiface set to 2048, as high as it goes, but maybe 4096 is needed.

I wouldn't say they avoid skipping as if they intentionally do that. IMHO they are just lucky.

It should be clear that DAC is not like DAC. There are lots of ways to transfer data. There are also differences how many data are transferred. Do your other DACs support a super low latency playback path? Do your other DACs work up to 768 kHz? Do your other DACs have a record path? I bet none of this. So why should they behave the same?

That said we have plans to issue test firmwares with bigger USB buffers and removed record functionality, to check out where some of the problems/differences originate. They will show up in this forum when available.

Still the point is: with hardware (USB port and hub) that works as it should, there is no such problem. Changing the firmware would be a workaround for bad performance of other hardware.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2016-12-30
  • Posts: 197

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

MC wrote:
gepardcv wrote:

I understand your point about the OS's USB interface providing the audio interface with data. Still, that doesn't explain why other DACs do not skip when connected to the same hardware and the same OS. Other audio devices have to deal with the same low-quality Microsoft USB interface, but somehow avoid skipping.

Maybe other audio devices buffer more samples? I have the madiface set to 2048, as high as it goes, but maybe 4096 is needed.

I wouldn't say they avoid skipping as if they intentionally do that. IMHO they are just lucky.

It should be clear that DAC is not like DAC. There are lots of ways to transfer data. There are also differences how many data are transferred. Do your other DACs support a super low latency playback path? Do your other DACs work up to 768 kHz? Do your other DACs have a record path? I bet none of this. So why should they behave the same?

That said we have plans to issue test firmwares with bigger USB buffers and removed record functionality, to check out where some of the problems/differences originate. They will show up in this forum when available.

Still the point is: with hardware (USB port and hub) that works as it should, there is no such problem. Changing the firmware would be a workaround for bad performance of other hardware.

do not want to be that guy but i see a certain trend in your posts lately,
its always something like "RME hard and software is 100% infallible,
if there are any problems it's our OS, PC, USB port  or anything else but not RME"

  • hkram
  • New member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2018-05-13
  • Posts: 3

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

MC wrote:
gepardcv wrote:

I understand your point about the OS's USB interface providing the audio interface with data. Still, that doesn't explain why other DACs do not skip when connected to the same hardware and the same OS. Other audio devices have to deal with the same low-quality Microsoft USB interface, but somehow avoid skipping.

Maybe other audio devices buffer more samples? I have the madiface set to 2048, as high as it goes, but maybe 4096 is needed.

That said we have plans to issue test firmwares with bigger USB buffers and removed record functionality, to check out where some of the problems/differences originate. They will show up in this forum when available.

Would love to see firmware with bigger buffers. I also experience dropouts on a Windows 10 machine.

In my experience, Ressonance DACs are very good in this regard. Even when the machines are handling concurrent tasks, there's no dropout.

12 Reply by hkram (edited by hkram 2018-06-11 17:07:34)

  • hkram
  • New member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2018-05-13
  • Posts: 3

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

hkram wrote:
MC wrote:
gepardcv wrote:

I understand your point about the OS's USB interface providing the audio interface with data. Still, that doesn't explain why other DACs do not skip when connected to the same hardware and the same OS. Other audio devices have to deal with the same low-quality Microsoft USB interface, but somehow avoid skipping.

Maybe other audio devices buffer more samples? I have the madiface set to 2048, as high as it goes, but maybe 4096 is needed.

That said we have plans to issue test firmwares with bigger USB buffers and removed record functionality, to check out where some of the problems/differences originate. They will show up in this forum when available.

Would love to see firmware with bigger buffers. I also experience dropouts on a Windows 10 machine.

In my experience, Ressonance DACs are very good in this regard. Even when the machines are handling concurrent tasks, there's no dropout.

Getting more unusable now. Not just audio dropping off, now the DAC simply disconnects by itself (so music simply stops). Happened at least three times this week.

EDIT 1: Fourth time in one week as I type.
USB, Win 10 in a machine that is dedicated to music reproduction (meaning no concurrent tasks), happened with both Roon and Foobar.

EDIT 2: On second thought, perhaps it's my laptop going into battery reservation mode. Have to test more, but still, the dropping off, which has been widely reported and has nothing to do with battery mode, is annoying.

EDIT3: Did more testing, and aside from the dropping off, the DAC indeed disconnects by itself. Annoying to say the least.

13 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,582

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

gepardcv wrote:

I understand your point about the OS's USB interface providing the audio interface with data. Still, that doesn't explain why other DACs do not skip when connected to the same hardware and the same OS. Other audio devices have to deal with the same low-quality Microsoft USB interface, but somehow avoid skipping.

Maybe other audio devices buffer more samples? I have the madiface set to 2048, as high as it goes, but maybe 4096 is needed.

You now have an alternative:

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=27280

After completely removing the RME driver (Uninstall in Device Manager with 'remove software' or similar checked), the ADI-2 DAC will work as CC device with the UAC2 driver supplied by Microsoft within Windows 10.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2018-04-25
  • Posts: 13

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

I just updated my ADI-2 to the latest firmware you posted, and it works perfectly! No more audio dropouts with the UAC2 driver. Thank you very much for this. Nicely done.

  • Registered: 2018-06-29
  • Posts: 100

Re: USB audio skipping with ADI-2 DAC on Windows 10

Had the same problem with skipping audio. Using the native Windows Driver solved the issued completely. Would love to have a way to update firmware without rme driver installed.