Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

will there be another filter similar to the SD LD in the new ADI-2/4? I think this was a good compromise and sounds very good too.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/01/m … lters.html

For example, the NOS filter could be replaced, I doubt that a mastering engineer uses a NOS filter.

102

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

technically doable in a firmware update to current ESS based DAC as well.

103 (edited by KaiS 2022-06-15 00:49:57)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Schleichhörnchen wrote:

... And don't forget, Audiophiles hear the things we didn't while we recorded it. ...

I by myself do hear things later on when listening at home, that I didn’t hear in the studio - for the good or the bad.

This is why we usually have an “evaluation” phase, do changes and corrections, before release.

Every pair of speakers or headphones sounds different - for everyone - giving a different perspective on the same recording.
It’s a process, artists tend to focus on their own performance, audio engineers keep an eye on the whole picture, this all goes hand in hand.

hasan.ay386 wrote:

will there be another filter similar to the SD LD in the new ADI-2/4? I think this was a good compromise and sounds very good too.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/01/m … lters.html

For example, the NOS filter could be replaced, I doubt that a mastering engineer uses a NOS filter.

The ESS chip allows to load custom DA-filters into the chip (which RME already does), so the number of filter options isn’t limited.

NOS is an interesting approach, BTW, as a reference for “almost no filter”.

104

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

ESS has SD LD as well. They call it Hybrid Fast Roll Off Filter.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

105

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Sooo, is the price still a secret? I am basically ready to pull the trigger on an ADI-2 Pro FS, but the possibility to connect monitors, headphones and sub is actually what I am looking for. Exactly what the 2/4 offers.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

@MC. Whats our savings goal? big_smile

Too late for requsts perhaps.

1. Will PSU have battery drive?
3. Are there gonna be multiple outputs for PSU?
2. Will 2/4 se come in silver/blue?

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

107 (edited by Babaluma 2022-06-22 21:41:24)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

vB wrote:

Sooo, is the price still a secret? I am basically ready to pull the trigger on an ADI-2 Pro FS, but the possibility to connect monitors, headphones and sub is actually what I am looking for. Exactly what the 2/4 offers.

Exactly the same here, I'm gonna wait instead of grabbing the ADI-2 Pro FS, but would just be nice to know a firm ETA and price ASAP.

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

I would expect a jump in price from pro. Its got higher spec and the inflation times weare in will probably have a say. If you follow prices on ADI-2 dac/pro and everything else for that matter. Price up for pro is €50 and dac €2-300 +/-. Its not getting any cheaper no.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Happy_amateur wrote:

@MC. Whats our savings goal? big_smile

Too late for requsts perhaps.


3. Are there gonna be multiple outputs for PSU?

That would be great!

110 (edited by vB 2022-06-23 20:52:41)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Happy_amateur wrote:

I would expect a jump in price from pro. Its got higher spec and the inflation times weare in will probably have a say. If you follow prices on ADI-2 dac/pro and everything else for that matter. Price up for pro is €50 and dac €2-300 +/-. Its not getting any cheaper no.

2k-ish would be awesome, but I doubt that. But the more it’s leaning towards 3k, the more it’s entering Avocet territory, which is a whole nother beast, of course (if it will ever be available again). Pro FS is probably simply the best bang for the buck. Almost ordering… smile

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

vB wrote:
Happy_amateur wrote:

I would expect a jump in price from pro. Its got higher spec and the inflation times weare in will probably have a say. If you follow prices on ADI-2 dac/pro and everything else for that matter. Price up for pro is €50 and dac €2-300 +/-. Its not getting any cheaper no.

2k-ish would be awesome, but I doubt that. But the more it’s leaning towards 3k, the more it’s entering Avocet territory, which is a whole nother beast, of course (if it will ever be available again). Pro FS is probably simply the best bang for the buck. Almost ordering… smile

I dont want to speculate too much. Ppl should do what they think and feel for themself. I for shure would like the new products, and I have 100% confidence in MC and his crew to make it worth the wait. These are though times for consumers and producers, so ill hope we will all come out OK.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

My humble wishes about the future of the device, if it is still possible.
1) Make 2 analog inputs combined with microphone and instrument inputs with phantom power.
2) Totalmix support. But if the first point can exist without Totalmix, I can live without it)

It would be the perfect device for me. With these features, I'm even willing to pay $3,000 for the device. I don't want to buy an additional audio interface, for example UCX II, just because of the presence of 2 microphone and instrument inputs, it's not practical and just not convenient for portability.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

saturosstudio wrote:

My humble wishes about the future of the device, if it is still possible.
1) Make 2 analog inputs combined with microphone and instrument inputs with phantom power.
2) Totalmix support. But if the first point can exist without Totalmix, I can live without it)

It would be the perfect device for me. With these features, I'm even willing to pay $3,000 for the device. I don't want to buy an additional audio interface, for example UCX II, just because of the presence of 2 microphone and instrument inputs, it's not practical and just not convenient for portability.

Get the Babyface pro FS. It is and sounds perfect.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

vinark wrote:

Get the Babyface pro FS. It is and sounds perfect.

this is again an additional device only because of the inputs. And if I need to buy an additional headphone amplifier, it will already be the 3rd device in the circuit. I understand that a good headphone amplifier is limited by the compact size of the device, but it is possible to implement combined analog inputs. I want everything to be in one portable device, and not to carry 3 devices with a bunch of wires, although everything can perform 1 or 2 maximum

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

I definitely wouldn't want cheap mic pres and DIs added to it, increasing the cost. I'm happy with my Chandler TG2, thank you very much. It's not supposed to be an all in one device. There are loads of those out there already.

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Will it be possible to feed the two DACs with independent digital sources and yet control the master volume for all of them at the same time? I think of something like connecting a miniDSP SHD studio with all 4 digital output channels to the RME (e.g. Channels 1/2 by SPDIF and Channels 3/4 by AES-EBU to RME) and then use its extended functions like loudness, filters before DA conversion?

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

If I use this and connect my analog mastering chain, would I be able to monitor my digital in coming back out from my daw after it going through the RME and not the actual chain? I still do some processing in the daw after the RME A to D

It would be cool to be able to add VST plugins on the inputs in total mix it would be a mastering beast

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Of course I meant the BF pro FS as a one stop solution. Dac, mic pre and headphones amp. All 3 are excellent. Thinking you will hear any difference with other RME gear is simply not realistic. Of course heavily coloured mic pre will sound different by design.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

119 (edited by ramses 2022-06-30 17:51:52)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

HouseMusic101 wrote:

It would be cool to be able to add VST plugins on the inputs in total mix it would be a mastering beast

TM FX won't get any VST support, has been discussed already on forum.
A 3rd party VST can impact stability, this is not wanted in TM FX.
You can do this easily in the DAW.

Alternatively get a plugin host like e.g. LiveProfessor
https://audiostrom.com/
See also this RME Essentials video: "VST Plugins in TotalMix with LiveProfessor "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ95oc6zO3w

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

120 (edited by ning 2022-06-30 17:56:17)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Babyface Pro FS is fantastic if you want line out, mic in and hp amp.

the babyface Pro FS hp amp works for 95% of the headphones, and if you don't use it for highly sensitive or power hungry phones you will be fine.
for many of the outliers, even the ADI-2 Pro struggle with the noise level. That's why I don't use it with IEMs.

You also don't get the ADI-2 Pro experience (crossfeed, 7band eq, loudness) though. but you'll have TMFX

> Thinking you will hear any difference with other RME gear is simply not realistic.

depends on your equipment. Some equipments have too high or two low sensitivity and you'll either hear noise or lack enough loudness.
ADI-2/4 has far wider output levels to solve this issue than Babyface has.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

ramses wrote:
HouseMusic101 wrote:

It would be cool to be able to add VST plugins on the inputs in total mix it would be a mastering beast

TM FX won't get any VST support, has been discussed already on forum.
A 3rd party VST can impact stability, this is not wanted in TM FX.
You can do this easily in the DAW.

Alternatively get a plugin host like e.g. LiveProfessor
https://audiostrom.com/
See also this RME Essentials video: "VST Plugins in TotalMix with LiveProfessor "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ95oc6zO3w


Vst is just wishful thinking on my part

Can you choose what u monitor via the preferences ,,, regardless of how many different inputs you have connected?

Thx

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Integration with Dirac would be great!

123 (edited by spnc 2022-07-04 15:39:08)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Hi my plan is to buy a UCX II (or UFX III if it's coming out?) + ADI-2/4 when they are available:

I don't care too much about the extra features (10 band EQ etc.) but since I use my headphones a lot for mixing, this is very important that this devices be loud clear and transparent and not compressed and not saturating at high levels:

So I would like to know:

1. Can you please make the ADI-2/4 more powerful especially with regard to the headphone amp than the previous generation

Because I'm gonna already spend min. 3'000 on both the interface and the ADI, so I'd like to avoid spending an extra 600 bucks on a powerful amp such as this the Topping A90D https://apos.audio/products/topping-a90-headphone-amp with 145db output

As I plan to invest in expensive headphones, some with low imped but also some with high imped, which are very hungry, and some low sensitivity

But I understand as per ASR forum that the 1st gen ADI is not powerful enough, especially with high impedance headphones?

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … st-1217311

I get asked this a lot, but after applying EQ and ReplayGain, the RME just doesn't have enough juice single-ended. There's a way to use both HP outs to push more power, but I feel it's too clunky compared to just having an amp with an XLR jack.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … st-1217338

Long answer - plugging my Aeons directly into the RME, with a little bit of EQ to correct the tonality (bump up the bass and tame the upper mids), I sometimes find myself maxing out the volume knob on some songs. One example would be Dire Straits's "Money for Nothing" from the 1985 album Brothers In Arms - the version in my lossless library is a rip from the original 1985 CD, where the mastering is punchy and not compressed like later remasters. Especially during that intro with Sting's uncredited vocals, I even find myself craving more power.

The SMSL SP200 comes in and saves the day. This thing has so much power that I can make myself cringe without even pushing it to its limit, whereas the RME doesn't get that blisteringly loud. Now, my Aeons are pretty inefficient at 93 dB/mW, but there are headphones that are much less sensitive - take the DCA Stealth, for example. Those have a sensitivity rating of 86 dB/mW, and if my RME is struggling to give me as much power as I want sometimes with my Aeons, the Stealth will absolutely present more such circumstances. I bring it up because it's a headphone I'm considering.

Yes, I can disable EQ and the song becomes loud enough, but then I lose tonality. Still other songs which are compressed to oblivion (like the example I posted in this thread) play loudly enough that the RME provides more than enough power for enjoyment, so I can plug directly into the RME. But why bother being so hands-on all the time? The point of the hobby is to just set up and forget about it, and to enjoy the music with a simple interface - one plug, one volume knob. To that effect, even if the RME works 95% of the time, because the SMSL works 100% of the time, I have incentive to keep it. Plus my desk looks neat and clean, without a ridiculous 2xTRS -> 4-pin XLR adapter sticking out of my DAC, lol - aesthetics matter too.

Edit - Was just looking at the manual and it seems that an adapter won't make a difference for the Aeons; the RME simply can't push more current than about 250 mA:

124 (edited by spnc 2022-07-04 15:32:40)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

[post continued]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/capture-png.212643/

Eh I hoped they would stick to AKM chips, also please bring back the ability to mount it in a rack.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … st-1184579

Since I don't need balanced connection and definitely not more power, I will stick to the predecessor. But if RME would provide a 10+ PEQ.......

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … st-1234921

You say definitely not more power but some headphones want a lot of power and I was noodling about an a90 which you can get relatively cheap now on the used market... It also has the XLR connection for headphone output... Not saying the RME doesn't have the power but I know I'm cranking rather high on it with some headphones. Curious if anyone has paired an A90 with the RME and found even better results.

125 (edited by spnc 2022-07-04 15:40:14)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

[post continued]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … st-1235406

The new RME ADI-2/4 will have (preliminary) about 3.6W per channel in balanced mode while for reference the ADI-2 DAC FS [edit: has no balanced mode] has 1.5W, but that only increases the volume a little more than 3 dB. So just increasing the headphone amps power output very quickly meets the wall of diminishing returns.

Edit: The 3.6W per channel comes from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdMFILHfpc

Reply

And the current ADI-Pro fs R has 2.9W.
Not even 1dB difference.

Reply

On the other hand I wonder if some these headphones requiring this much power are quite simply badly designed and engineered like speakers dipping into the 1 Ohm territory.

Reply

Well,
It may be that they're using a cutting edge technology that just requires more power.
As an example, the electrostatic drivers.

Reply

...which need entirely different amplification topology than other headphones.

2. Are you gonna fix the hissing noise apparently some users had on some units of ADI v1?

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=34379

3. Integration with TotalMix would be the icing on the cake but I understand it's not meant for that? I guess it's fine since I will be able with my Mac to route the 3/4 outputs of my UCX/UFX directly using TotalMix?

Thank you!

126 (edited by KaiS 2022-07-08 12:25:26)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

spnc wrote:

... 1. Can you please make the ADI-2/4 more powerful especially with regard to the headphone amp than the previous generation
...
- plugging my Aeons directly into the RME, with a little bit of EQ to correct the tonality (bump up the bass and tame the upper mids), I sometimes find myself maxing out the volume knob on some songs. One example would be Dire Straits's "Money for Nothing" from the 1985 album Brothers In Arms - the version in my lossless library is a rip from the original 1985 CD, where the mastering is punchy and not compressed like later remasters. Especially during that intro with Sting's uncredited vocals, I even find myself craving more power.

@ spnc:

Are you sure you run ADI-2 with “Auto Reference Level” = ON, not limited to “Low Power” - do you see dBr, not straight dB, when dialing the Volume?

If yes, I suggest to overthink your listening behavior.
The levels you are using are obviously ear-damaging if applied more than a few minutes a day.


To set this into perspective I did measurements with my calibrated Bruel&Kjaer 4153 Artificial Ear and Sound Level Meter according to OSHA and NIOSH standards.

Fortunately I have the Dan Clark Audio Aeon 2 Noire, spec’ed 13 Ohm, 92 dB/1mW (the Aeon is: 13 Ohm 93 dB/1mW), and the original 1985 Dire Straits Brothers In Arms CD release.


Setup:
• AEON 2 Noire connected single ended to
• RME ADI-2 Pro, at 0 dBr Volume (1) and
• no EQ, for better comparability  (2),
• playing “Money For Nothing” 1985’s release version  (3):


The song’s intro, before the first drum-hits, reads:
• 89 dB SPL LEQ A (LEQ is the time-accumulated noise dose).
• 110 dB SPL Peaks.


The main part of the song reads:
• 100 dB SPL LEQ A.
To prevent hearing loss no more than 15 min a day of this level is allowed, and only if the rest of the day your sound level is below 80 dB, NIOSH standard  (4).

134 dB SPL Peaks , it’s a very dynamic master.

134 dB SPL is the level on a small bore pistol shooting range, which no-one would attend without hearing protection.



REMARKS:
(1) ADI-2 has another +6 dB of Volume Dial reserve above 0 dBr, e.g. for very quiet songs.

(2) Some amount of bass-EQ wouldn’t completely change the picture, dBA doesn’t measure the bass-range.

(3) The 1985’s CD release of Brothers In Arms is indeed ca. 12 dB quieter  - and more dynamic (!) than the 1996 Remaster that is commonly available in streaming.
“Money For Nothing”, complete, has an ITU / EBU R128 Loudness of -20.1 LUFS, at +1.0 dBTP (true peak).
Typical contemporary productions are 10-12 dB hotter.

(4) The Bruel&Kjaer 4153 Artificial Ear reads a bit soft from 2-5 kHz, so the real SPL figures at ones natural ear might well be 3-5 dB higher than the measurement.
This would, depending on your ear’s anatomy, bring the max. exposure time further down to ca. 1/2 of the mentioned 15 min!


Personal annotation:
My comfortable listening level for this album with Aeon 2 Noire is RME ADI-2 Pro’s Volume at -32 dBr, this is 68 dB A LEQ and still 102 dB SPL Peaks.
Song’s vocals sound slightly above the level of normal natural conversation then.

127

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

KaiS wrote:
spnc wrote:

... 1. Can you please make the ADI-2/4 more powerful especially with regard to the headphone amp than the previous generation
...
- plugging my Aeons directly into the RME, with a little bit of EQ to correct the tonality (bump up the bass and tame the upper mids), I sometimes find myself maxing out the volume knob on some songs. One example would be Dire Straits's "Money for Nothing" from the 1985 album Brothers In Arms - the version in my lossless library is a rip from the original 1985 CD, where the mastering is punchy and not compressed like later remasters. Especially during that intro with Sting's uncredited vocals, I even find myself craving more power.

@ spnc:

Are you sure you run ADI-2 with “Auto Reference Level” = ON, not limited to “Low Power” - do you see dBr, not straight dB, when dialing the Volume?

If yes, I suggest to overthink your listening behavior.
The levels you are using are obviously ear-damaging if applied more than a few minutes a day.


To set this into perspective I did measurements with my calibrated Bruel&Kjaer 4153 Artificial Ear and Sound Level Meter according to OSHA and NIOSH standards.

Fortunately I have the Dan Clark Audio Aeon 2 Noire, spec’ed 13 Ohm, 92 dB/1mW (the Aeon is: 13 Ohm 93 dB/1mW), and the original 1985 Dire Straits Brothers In Arms CD release.


Setup:
• AEON 2 Noire connected single ended to
• RME ADI-2 Pro, at 0 dBr Volume (1) and
• no EQ, for better comparability  (2),
• playing “Money For Nothing” 1985’s release version  (3):


The song’s intro, before the first drum-hits, reads:
• 89 dB SPL LEQ A (LEQ is the time-accumulated noise dose).
• 110 dB SPL Peaks.


The main part of the song reads:
• 100 dB SPL LEQ A.
To prevent hearing loss no more than 15 min a day of this level is allowed, and only if the rest of the day your sound level is below 80 dB, NIOSH standard  (4).

134 dB SPL Peaks , it’s a very dynamic master.

134 dB SPL is the level on a small bore pistol shooting range, which no-one would attend without hearing protection.



REMARKS:
(1) ADI-2 has another +6 dB of Volume Dial reserve above 0 dBr, e.g. for very quiet songs.

(2) Some amount of bass-EQ wouldn’t completely change the picture, dBA doesn’t measure the bass-range.

(3) The 1985’s CD release of Brothers In Arms is indeed ca. 12 dB quieter  - and more dynamic (!) than the 1996 Remaster that is commonly available in streaming.

(4) The Bruel&Kjaer 4153 Artificial Ear reads a bit soft from 2-5 kHz, so the real SPL figures at ones natural ear might well be 3-5 dB higher than the measurement.
This would, depending on your ear’s anatomy, bring the max. exposure time further down to ca. 1/2 of the mentioned 15 min!


Personal annotation:
My comfortable listening level for this album with Aeon 2 Noire is RME ADI-2 Pro’s Volume at -32 dBr, this is 68 dB A LEQ and still 102 dB SPL Peaks.
Song’s vocals sound slightly above the level of normal natural conversation then.

Thank you for your feedback, I'm not a RME owner (yet) I was just quoting (in bold) the aforementioned persons at each link.

I'm going to read your post it sounds interesting cheers.

128 (edited by KaiS 2022-07-05 12:20:48)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Be assured:

ADI-2 can drive ALL mythical “hard to drive” headphones to more than sufficient level if you have a healthy hearing and want to keep it like this.


E.g. I run AKG K-1000 with 12 dB of bass boost EQ, single ended, at -12 dBr Volume.
Still have a margin of 12+6 dB, including ADI-2’s +6 dB gain reserve, with the above Dire Straits recording. - sounds great BTW!

Output level peaks at +8 dBu, this is 32 mW or 0.032 W power used - for those who think Killer-Wattage is needed to run those so called “hard to drive”-‘phones, - just another myth!

AKG K-1000 is 120 Ohm 74 dB/mW – much worse than Hifiman Susvara’s 60 Ohm 83 dB/mW (and no EQ needed), or Abyss‘s AB1266™ PHI TC 47 Ohm 88 dB/mW.

129 (edited by spnc 2022-07-05 16:45:35)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

KaiS wrote:

Be assured:

ADI-2 can drive ALL mythical “hard to drive” headphones to more than sufficient level if you have a healthy hearing and want to keep it like this.


E.g. I run AKG K-1000 with 12 dB of bass boost EQ, single ended, at -12 dBr Volume.
Still have a margin of 12+6 dB, including ADI-2’s +6 dB gain reserve, with the above Dire Straits recording. - sounds great BTW!

Output level peaks at +8 dBu, this is 32 mW or 0.032 W power used - for those who think Killer-Wattage is needed to run those so called “hard to drive”-‘phones, - just another myth!

AKG K-1000 is 120 Ohm 74 dB/mW – much worse than Hifiman Susvara’s 60 Ohm 83 dB/mW (and no EQ needed), or Abyss‘s AB1266™ PHI TC 47 Ohm 88 dB/mW.


Here's the person's reply fyi:

Hey! Thanks for replying. I think I mentioned this earlier, but I use DSP, which reduces the output level for me quite a bit before the ADI-2 comes in.

1. I use equalization on my headphone (through software, not the ADI-2) and overall, that pushes the level down by about 6 dB or so. Even though I say I'm bumping up the bass, the EQ software has a pre-amp to make sure clipping is avoided, so what's really happening is everything apart from the bass is being knocked down by 6 dB. Then there's a little bit of reduction in the treble, because the original Aeon can be unpleasantly sibilant around 7-8 kHz. (Whenever Lucky Ali produces the /s/ sound in "Ek Pal Ka Jeena" from Kaho Naa... Pyaar Hai, I cringe with EQ turned off.)

2. I also use ReplayGain in album mode per ITU-R BS.1770 (volume normalized to -23 dB LUFS with 1 dB of headroom). This album has a gain of -0.45 dB, so there's an additional 1.5 dB reduction during playback.

I do have my ADI-2 set to auto reference level though, with dBr on the display. Turning off DSP makes it substantially louder. With DSP turned on in player software, though, the intro part of "Money for Nothing" is just not loud enough at 0 dB on the ADI-2. The rest of the song, however, is very loud - unbearably so with DSP turned off and the RME at 0 dBr. DSP is important for me, and I don't like to switch it off just for the sake of headroom.

Subjective part - I am careful to never play too loud and damage my ears, and I only listen to one or two songs at louder than moderate level at a time when I want to have fun. I unfortunately don't have a dB SPL number to quantify my subjective opinion of "moderate," but I certainly don't think it's abnormally loud, because it's about the same loudness as I'd watch TV.

I trust the person on the RME forum, and I have a suspicion that my headphones might be less efficient than the stated 93 dB/mW. I've never been able to get them even close to "loud enough" plugged directly into a laptop or phone, no DSP (even on "ordinary" songs with far lower dynamic range). For me, "Loud enough" is like movie theater loudness, or a little bit less than concert loudness, subjectively.

130 (edited by KaiS 2022-07-05 21:26:02)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

If I get this right you have your music down to -24 dB LUFS, then additional -6 dB by DSP’s EQ.


-23 LUFS already is a very low target loudness, in - not only my - opinion the target is too low for music.
The lowest any music streaming service uses is -16 LUFS, see:

LOUDNESS TARGETS FOR STREAMING PLATFORMS CHART
(bit down the page):
https://www.masteringthemix.com/blogs/l … nd-youtube


Have a look at ADI-2’s level meter, set to “Pre FX”, to see the unused headroom.
6-9 dB at least I guess, more with your “too quiet” songs.


Anyway, ADI-2’s Volume can be dialed up to +6 dBr, maybe that’s already enough for your purpose.

131 (edited by Muffin 2022-07-05 18:54:15)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

spnc wrote:
KaiS wrote:

Be assured:

ADI-2 can drive ALL mythical “hard to drive” headphones to more than sufficient level if you have a healthy hearing and want to keep it like this.


E.g. I run AKG K-1000 with 12 dB of bass boost EQ, single ended, at -12 dBr Volume.
Still have a margin of 12+6 dB, including ADI-2’s +6 dB gain reserve, with the above Dire Straits recording. - sounds great BTW!

Output level peaks at +8 dBu, this is 32 mW or 0.032 W power used - for those who think Killer-Wattage is needed to run those so called “hard to drive”-‘phones, - just another myth!

AKG K-1000 is 120 Ohm 74 dB/mW – much worse than Hifiman Susvara’s 60 Ohm 83 dB/mW (and no EQ needed), or Abyss‘s AB1266™ PHI TC 47 Ohm 88 dB/mW.


Here's the person's reply fyi:

Hey! Thanks for replying. I think I mentioned this earlier, but I use DSP, which reduces the output level for me quite a bit before the ADI-2 comes in.

1. I use equalization on my headphone (through software, not the ADI-2) and overall, that pushes the level down by about 6 dB or so. Even though I say I'm bumping up the bass, the EQ software has a pre-amp to make sure clipping is avoided, so what's really happening is everything apart from the bass is being knocked down by 6 dB. Then there's a little bit of reduction in the treble, because the original Aeon can be unpleasantly sibilant around 7-8 kHz. (Whenever Lucky Ali produces the /s/ sound in "Ek Pal Ka Jeena" from Kaho Naa... Pyaar Hai, I cringe with EQ turned off.)

2. I also use ReplayGain in album mode per ITU-R BS.1770 (volume normalized to -23 dB LUFS with 1 dB of headroom). This album has a gain of -0.45 dB, so there's an additional 1.5 dB reduction during playback.

I do have my ADI-2 set to auto reference level though, with dBr on the display. Turning off DSP makes it substantially louder. With DSP turned on in player software, though, the intro part of "Money for Nothing" is just not loud enough at 0 dB on the ADI-2. The rest of the song, however, is very loud - unbearably so with DSP turned off and the RME at 0 dBr. DSP is important for me, and I don't like to switch it off just for the sake of headroom.

Subjective part - I am careful to never play too loud and damage my ears, and I only listen to one or two songs at louder than moderate level at a time when I want to have fun. I unfortunately don't have a dB SPL number to quantify my subjective opinion of "moderate," but I certainly don't think it's abnormally loud, because it's about the same loudness as I'd watch TV.

I trust the person on the RME forum, and I have a suspicion that my headphones might be less efficient than the stated 93 dB/mW. I've never been able to get them even close to "loud enough" plugged directly into a laptop or phone, no DSP (even on "ordinary" songs with far lower dynamic range). For me, "Loud enough" is like movie theater loudness, or a little bit less than concert loudness, subjectively.

Note the part very important part of

"Subjective part - I am careful to never play too loud and damage my ears, and I only listen to one or two songs at louder than moderate level at a time when I want to have fun. I unfortunately don't have a dB SPL number to quantify my subjective opinion of "moderate," but I certainly don't think it's abnormally loud, because it's about the same loudness as I'd watch TV."

For me this is a hobby as I make my income in much more lucrative areas, but for those that use their ears for a living ear safety is paramount, just as agile fingers is for me. You can guess what I do for a living, and I do care about fingers as well as my wrists. So who are you to denigrate loudness levels bordering on hearing damage as too low?

132 (edited by KaiS 2022-07-05 21:27:20)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Muffin wrote:

..So who are you to denigrate loudness levels bordering on hearing damage as too low?

1. The one who advocates to carefully choose your listening level to preserve your hearing smile

Movie Theater or Concert Level is significantly too high for long term auditions.

If the vocals in the song are slightly above natural human’s normal conversation level you are on the safe side, and this is a good, practical measure.


2. The other question (or request), that made this topic start:

Why is ADI-2 not loud enough for some, do we need more output power wattage for ADI-2/4?

My simple answer is, no!
But - according to one before your last posting there can be configurations where the available power is not fully used due to too low digital input level.
In the recording studio we call this a gain staging problem.

My answer suggested how to circumvent this problem.


These are two totally different topics.


Personally I use just about 1% (literally, 32 mW from 2900 mW!) of ADI-2 Pro’s maximum available power, even with my “hardest to drive” AKG K-1000.

133 (edited by Muffin 2022-07-05 22:37:15)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

KaiS wrote:
Muffin wrote:

..So who are you to denigrate loudness levels bordering on hearing damage as too low?

1. The one who advocates to carefully choose your listening level to preserve your hearing smile

Movie Theater or Concert Level is significantly too high for long term auditions.

If the vocals in the song are slightly above natural human’s normal conversation level you are on the safe side, and this is a good, practical measure.


2. The other question (or request), that made this topic start:

Why is ADI-2 not loud enough for some, do we need more output power wattage for ADI-2/4?

My simple answer is, no!
But - according to one before your last posting there can be configurations where the available power is not fully used due to too low digital input level.
In the recording studio we call this a gain staging problem.

My answer suggested how to circumvent this problem.


These are two totally different topics.


Personally I use just about 1% (literally, 32 mW from 2900 mW!) of ADI-2 Pro’s maximum available power, even with my “hardest to drive” AKG K-1000.

It was a rhetorical question not directed at you.

I wish that I was more careful with my hearing as a child and onwards, but it is what is is: I did not know and the knowledge was not readily available at that time in pre-internet time, and probably not smart enough to listen to it anyway. I was head strong as a child and that did not improve much as I got older hmm

134 (edited by spnc 2022-07-05 22:41:27)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

KaiS wrote:
Muffin wrote:

..So who are you to denigrate loudness levels bordering on hearing damage as too low?

1. The one who advocates to carefully choose your listening level to preserve your hearing smile

Movie Theater or Concert Level is significantly too high for long term auditions.

If the vocals in the song are slightly above natural human’s normal conversation level you are on the safe side, and this is a good, practical measure.


2. The other question (or request), that made this topic start:

Why is ADI-2 not loud enough for some, do we need more output power wattage for ADI-2/4?

My simple answer is, no!
But - according to one before your last posting there can be configurations where the available power is not fully used due to too low digital input level.
In the recording studio we call this a gain staging problem.

My answer suggested how to circumvent this problem.


These are two totally different topics.


Personally I use just about 1% (literally, 32 mW from 2900 mW!) of ADI-2 Pro’s maximum available power, even with my “hardest to drive” AKG K-1000.

Well I appreciate your lenghty pieces of feedback, really thanks for sharing.

However I don't think that, on the basis of a single individual feedback, this individual being concerned about 'protecting our ears' (strange arguent, which all the same sounds very subjective), that on this only basis RME should decide to be conservative and not improve that aspect of the current ADI.

An upgrade doesn't happen every day, more like every 5/6 years, so in my opinion it'd be a missed opportunity not to supercharge the RME with today's and tomorrow's needs.

I myself listen more or less 'normally' but from time to time, it's important to push the volume at high levels as I produce, since it's dancefloor music, not average Joe music. I don't wanna be restriced in that because someone here or there decided that we should not indulge in it. And as I explained earlier, it would force me to buy an extra amp, which for obvious money/space/practicality/cohesiveness reaons is an option that should not be on the table, if possible, when buying already for 3k of gear.

So for all these reasons I kindly ask RME to run a poll (or perhaps they ran their own market survey already) and present a couple realistic alternatives (and pricing accordingly) since now is the time I suppose they're fine-tuning the prototype.

Cheers smile

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

spnc wrote:
KaiS wrote:
Muffin wrote:

..So who are you to denigrate loudness levels bordering on hearing damage as too low?

1. The one who advocates to carefully choose your listening level to preserve your hearing smile

Movie Theater or Concert Level is significantly too high for long term auditions.

If the vocals in the song are slightly above natural human’s normal conversation level you are on the safe side, and this is a good, practical measure.


2. The other question (or request), that made this topic start:

Why is ADI-2 not loud enough for some, do we need more output power wattage for ADI-2/4?

My simple answer is, no!
But - according to one before your last posting there can be configurations where the available power is not fully used due to too low digital input level.
In the recording studio we call this a gain staging problem.

My answer suggested how to circumvent this problem.


These are two totally different topics.


Personally I use just about 1% (literally, 32 mW from 2900 mW!) of ADI-2 Pro’s maximum available power, even with my “hardest to drive” AKG K-1000.

Well I appreciate your lenghty pieces of feedback, really thanks for sharing.

However I don't think that, on the basis of a single individual feedback, this individual being concerned about 'protecting our ears' (strange arguent, which all the same sounds very subjective), that on this only basis RME should decide to be conservative and not improve that aspect of the current ADI.

An upgrade doesn't happen every day, more like every 5/6 years, so in my opinion it'd be a missed opportunity not to supercharge the RME with today's and tomorrow's needs.

I myself listen more or less 'normally' but from time to time, it's important to push the volume at high levels as I produce, since it's dancefloor music, not average Joe music. I don't wanna be restriced in that because someone here or there decided that we should not indulge in it. And as I explained earlier, it would force me to buy an extra amp, which for obvious money/space/practicality/cohesiveness reaons is an option that should not be on the table, if possible, when buying already for 3k of gear.

So for all these reasons I kindly ask RME to run a poll (or perhaps they ran their own market survey already) and present a couple realistic alternatives (and pricing accordingly) since now is the time I suppose they're fine-tuning the prototype.

Cheers smile

This is a real concern for pro's, and me in my dotage. This is also an excellent argument for DSP to alleviate hearing "challenges", and with RME you can have different EQ on left and right ear.

Regulations (EU as well as USA) protecting hearing has been around for quite some time but as I understand it mostly geared toward speech understanding, but for someone making a living using their ears (as in this forum) that is not good enough.

136 (edited by KaiS 2022-07-06 01:01:28)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

spnc wrote:

...as I explained earlier, it would force me to buy an extra amp, which for obvious money/space/practicality/cohesiveness reaons is an option that should not be on the table, if possible, when buying already for 3k of gear.

Now I‘m finally lost in what‘s your opinion and what‘s been quotes from others, and if you already have an ADI-2 or not.

If you don‘t feed close to full scale digital level into ADI-2 Pro (in fact there‘s 6 dB of extra gain, so -6 dBFS is enough) you don‘t get the full wattage it’s capable out of it.

Like driving a car in the 1st gear only.


This won‘t change if you double or triple the power of the next model.
You don‘t need more power, but less negative gain in your chain, I‘d already explained that.
No extra amp needed, just fitting settings.


ADI-2 Pro already is capable to drive almost every headphone on the market to sound levels that lead to immediate permanent ear damage - or fry the ‘phones if they can’t stand the power.


The ADI-2/4 will have a balanced Pentaconn connector with a balanced amp that is active all the time, without switching into a special configuration that limits other functions.
This alone will fourfold the available power for most configurations.

On top of that it will be some stronger anyway, if you follow RME’s videos.

I don’t think you will find it lacking in power.

137 (edited by Muffin 2022-07-06 00:54:52)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

KaiS wrote:
spnc wrote:

...as I explained earlier, it would force me to buy an extra amp, which for obvious money/space/practicality/cohesiveness reaons is an option that should not be on the table, if possible, when buying already for 3k of gear.

Now I‘m finally lost in what‘s your opinion and what‘s been quotes from others, and if you already have an ADI-2 or not.

If you don‘t feed close to full scale digital level into ADI-2 Pro (in fact there‘s 6 dB of extra gain, so -6 dBFS is enough) you don‘t get the full wattage it’s capable out of it.

Like driving a car in the 1st gear only.


This won‘t change if you double or triple the power of the next model.
You don‘t need more power, but less negative gain in your chain, I‘d already explained that.
No extra amp needed, just fitting settings.

He has not yet decided to buy the DAC/Pro and has only a theoretical/wish list what he wants from a headphone with respect to power, thus the questions along with the answers are meh: Unanswerable!

ADI-2 Pro is capable to drive almost every headphone on the market to sound levels that lead to immediate permanent ear damage - or fry the ‘phones if they can’t stand the power.


The ADI-2/4 will have a balanced Pentaconn connector with a balanced amp that is active all the time, without switching into a special configuration that limits other functions.
This alone will fourfold the available power for most configurations.

On top of that it will be some stronger anyway, if you follow RME’s videos.

I don’t think you will find it lacking in power.

Ugh, bulletin software from before I was born, yet another try...

He has yet to decide on buying the DAC/Pro and is exploring ranges of amp power for potential headphones, thus our answers are pretty meh and useless. He should look at a number of headphones *HE/SHE* he wants to use and then come back. All in my very not humble opinion and so forth.

138

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Yes guys sorry about the annoyance, following your answers I think it will do the work. In due time when I purchased it I will come back with info regarding the headphones I'm about to purchase then and how to make the most of this setup. Thank you again.

139

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

spnc wrote:

But I understand as per ASR forum that the 1st gen ADI is not powerful enough, especially with high impedance headphones?

Was just looking at the manual and it seems that an adapter won't make a difference for the Aeons; the RME simply can't push more current than about 250 mA

The ADIs show very high output wattage for high impedance headphones among the units tested at ASR. This should be obvious when reading (!) the reviews. Simple reason is that most units offer a max of around 19 dBu at 300 Ohms, but the ADI reaches +22 dBu (317 mW). Make that another +6 dB  for the balanced Pro, a whopping 1.26 W, which is able to fry most of the high impedance models as they typically not stand more than 500 mW. To compare to some other marketing claims: that is 55 Volt peak to peak at the headphone output.

Then the obvious confusion about level and power. This Aeon user never got to 250 mA, he does not need more power, but has a level issue in his signal chain. I bet that he did not use the available +6 dB Volume as he feared distortion or noise. A quick look at the available level meters would have made clear that the output is far from max and the input level is far too low.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

spnc wrote:

[post continued]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … st-1235406

The new RME ADI-2/4 will have (preliminary) about 3.6W per channel in balanced mode while for reference the ADI-2 DAC FS [edit: has no balanced mode] has 1.5W, but that only increases the volume a little more than 3 dB. So just increasing the headphone amps power output very quickly meets the wall of diminishing returns.

Edit: The 3.6W per channel comes from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdMFILHfpc

Reply

And the current ADI-Pro fs R has 2.9W.
Not even 1dB difference.

Reply

On the other hand I wonder if some these headphones requiring this much power are quite simply badly designed and engineered like speakers dipping into the 1 Ohm territory.

Reply

Well,
It may be that they're using a cutting edge technology that just requires more power.
As an example, the electrostatic drivers.

Reply

...which need entirely different amplification topology than other headphones.

2. Are you gonna fix the hissing noise apparently some users had on some units of ADI v1?

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=34379

3. Integration with TotalMix would be the icing on the cake but I understand it's not meant for that? I guess it's fine since I will be able with my Mac to route the 3/4 outputs of my UCX/UFX directly using TotalMix?

Thank you!


It's nice to quote me...
But then why do you remove the User names ?

;-)

141 (edited by rja4000 2022-07-09 16:36:57)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

MC wrote:

most units offer a max of around 19 dBu at 300 Ohms, but the ADI reaches +22 dBu (317 mW). Make that another +6 dB  for the balanced Pro, a whopping 1.26 W, which is able to fry most of the high impedance models as they typically not stand more than 500 mW.

I measured 312mW (unbalanced, 300.3 ohm)... (using the RME ADI-2 Pro fs R itself as ADC) :-)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … st-1241744

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/2022-07-08-18_40_03-rme-adi-2-pro-fs-r-phone-3-4-300-3-ohm-0db-png.217100/

142 (edited by KaiS 2022-07-09 19:54:56)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

MC wrote:

To compare to some other marketing claims: that is 55 Volt peak to peak at the headphone output.

Yes, that’s exactly that: marketing.

Those companies that tell voltage or even wattage (power) in Peak-to-Peak units are really just doing marketing mumbo-jumbo.
Peak-to-Peak is NOT what a driver is seeing at all, what’s causing the loudness level.
That‘s not what AC works like.

Peak to Peak wattage is not even the power that is delivered to the driver, not even momentary, never, simply a lie.

Quite often you find specs in Peak-to-Peak, but not obviously mentioned.

Calculating Peak-to-Peak for ADI-2 Pro would make 23 W @ 64 Ohm out of it’s real 2.9 W.
Remember, that’s not reality, just a marketing-man’s wet dream smile


RMS Voltage / Power only is relevant for comparability.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Pretty sure the existing ADI-2 already is a high-end ear-fryer and the 2/4 will fry ears even higher.

Can we get back to some real topics pls! It has been sort of asked before but I hope for the 2/4 to essentially be a MiniDSP 2x4 contender: per channel adjustable HPF/LPF and Linkwitz or Butterworth filters with variable slope.

And Totalmix.

wink

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

NoisyNarrowBandDevice wrote:

Pretty sure the existing ADI-2 already is a high-end ear-fryer and the 2/4 will fry ears even higher.

Can we get back to some real topics pls! It has been sort of asked before but I hope for the 2/4 to essentially be a MiniDSP 2x4 contender: per channel adjustable HPF/LPF and Linkwitz or Butterworth filters with variable slope.

And Totalmix.

wink

Im all in for this. Getting tired of people searching for the last volt for their Susvaras(which they prob havent bought yet)(..reading up on ASR too much smile ). Ofcourse ADI-2-dac/pro/2-4 should be able to drive anything given its aim for top contenders, but it isnt really a uniqe selling point these days. What will be the RME magic for the new device.

Then again, with only a few months left its all about the wait. Isnt it? big_smile

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

145

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

This request might already exist in the current version, don't know how it's implemented though since I don't have it.

I would like to be able to easily switch between mid and side information. Also the ability to process mid/side with separate EQ and volume, and save those as presets.

Another thing I personally find limiting with the current version is the max number of presets one can save. I would like to have more than 22.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Been using my ADI playing in CC mode from my phone. Charging opportunity would be a very handy festure. Have Android. Is that possible? Does anybody know of a solution similar to Apple camera adapter.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

147

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Happy_amateur wrote:

Been using my ADI playing in CC mode from my phone. Charging opportunity would be a very handy festure. Have Android. Is that possible? Does anybody know of a solution similar to Apple camera adapter.

Run through a little active/powered USB hub/switch/splitter.

Something like this:

https://smile.amazon.de/-/en/RSHTECH-Ac … amp;sr=8-3

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71lV-76NexL._AC_SX679_.jpg

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Jeez! Probably have a couple of those already! Thnx man! that simple yikes

About my question. Would it be technically possible to make a CC DAC that also charges the phone or would that short circuit or something. Been using my phone more because my laptop started to be more and more noisy, summer heat doesnt help either. If possible, that would be a nice convenient complement to future ADI product line.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

149 (edited by KaiS 2022-07-12 01:13:11)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Happy_amateur wrote:

Would it be technically possible to make a CC DAC that also charges the phone or would that short circuit or something.

I‘m not sure USB-B connector’s standard includes to be used for charging other / upstream devices.
To my knowledge it‘s only the other way round.

There‘s at least one DAC that charges iDevices (Audio Tools iAudioInterface2), but it uses a proprietary connector:

https://studiosixdigital.com/audio-hard … technical/

https://studiosixdigital.com/_Media/micpanel.jpeg

150 (edited by spnc 2022-07-12 16:36:01)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Happy_amateur wrote:
NoisyNarrowBandDevice wrote:

Pretty sure the existing ADI-2 already is a high-end ear-fryer and the 2/4 will fry ears even higher.

Can we get back to some real topics pls! It has been sort of asked before but I hope for the 2/4 to essentially be a MiniDSP 2x4 contender: per channel adjustable HPF/LPF and Linkwitz or Butterworth filters with variable slope.

And Totalmix.

wink

Im all in for this. Getting tired of people searching for the last volt for their Susvaras(which they prob havent bought yet)(..reading up on ASR too much smile ). Ofcourse ADI-2-dac/pro/2-4 should be able to drive anything given its aim for top contenders, but it isnt really a uniqe selling point these days. What will be the RME magic for the new device.

Then again, with only a few months left its all about the wait. Isnt it? big_smile

I'm all in for this too. Tired of people getting tired of people like you lol...

Or NoisyNarrowBandDevice asking for TotalMix integration when it's been said 1000 times here and there that TM is not for ADIs...

Or the other clown asking for a way to charge his mobile phone on it lol...

Yes indeed, it would be good to go back to the real topic: sound and power, like it's the main thing we're asking for such a device!

And we should be grateful for ASR tests and user feedbacks, without it I'd be more easily fooled by "marketing mumbo-jumbo" indeed