• Registered: 2012-02-21
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Topic: USB cable

Hi guys,

let me ask you whether it's a big different among the USB cables connected to RME interfaces
Setup:
- RME UCX
- power supply from adapter
- USB3.0 on PC host
- all is on one power supply chain - no loop currents at all
- USB cable 0.6m
- all grounds are properly connected

everything works absolutely fine except the case of reamping. Mainly hi gain stages. Issue is that sound comes with a disturbance. I think it comes from USB. I suspect that power wires in USB cable are inducted from data wires and it makes noisy disturbance on hi gain reampings. From time to time it's good but sometimes not.

Based on this experience I'm wondering whether the solution might be a more expensive USB cable (differences are in ten's of $)
Or could you suggest any USB high quality cable?

thanx
dave

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-03-30 12:15:39)

  • ramses
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Re: USB cable

Any USB cable will do as long as it doesn't violate specs (e.g. too long).
USB2 cable may be up to 5 m long.
It's not required to buy an expensive one, audiophile USB cables is marketing bullshit and every cable over €25 is a "crime".
But I would strongly suggest buying not the cheapest to have a good soldering/manufacturing quality and good plugs.
I made good experience with Lindy cables (be it USB2 or USB3) from their premium series.

To check for USB transport errors, you can open the RME driver settings.
Keep this window open, then a CRC check of transferred data will be performed and shown.
Only zero errors are acceptable.

The counters are in front of the CRC checks. Cc5, crc16, crc32 are simply the names of different types of CRC checks (no counter values).

If there are no transport errors then the issues are not over USB, then they are elsewhere.

If there are errors, try all other USB port, any USB3 or USB2 port will do or use a different USB cable.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2012-02-21
  • Posts: 8

Re: USB cable

I understand that expensive USB cables are crime. Without any doubt
Point of my question was about differences among the USB cables (cheapest and expensive) whether USB may have any influence for reamping. It's a special discipline of usage of audio interfaces. Mainly in hi gain amp.

dave

  • ramses
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Re: USB cable

USB is digital transfer of data .. how should it have an influence on reamping?
Once the analog signal has been converted into digital it's simply digital data that will be transferred lossless over USB and other digital interface ports like AES, ADAT, MADI, SPDIF ...

Counter question: do you have any doubts that your backup of data from PC to an USB disk is corrupted, because it is USB or because you used a cheap cable? As long as the cable is withing the specs and as long contacts are not broken and the plug no crap, you will have a solid PC backup even with the cheapest cable.

Is the same quality of data transfer when transferring digital audio data.
And with the CRC test which is built-in into the driver you can validate it.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2012-02-21
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Re: USB cable

Well, it's not about digital channel.
Issue is that when I start reamping then due to hi gain there is a big noise. Without hi Gain it's not noisy. Anyway I suspect in UB there some inductance from data wires to power supply wires (+5V and GND) and this is probably propagate to hi gain input of amplifier through output interfaces of RME.
This is my idea and this is why I'm putting the question in forum

  • Registered: 2012-02-21
  • Posts: 8

Re: USB cable

so it's a question of shielding of cheap and expensive cables. Theory is one thing but practice is a practice and I'm looking somebody who was/is facing the same issue. When hi-gain reamp where is obvious

  • ramses
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Re: USB cable

Makes still no sense to me .. if noise from outside would be induced in such a way, then it means data would be corrupted.
If it would be so corrupted, you wouldn't hear any audio/sound.
Because corrupted digital data would not result in any meaningful audio data by the D/A converter.
So the noise is either introduced before A/D conversion or behind.

"behind" also includes, that you possibly drive the input of your amp too hot.

Check that you get a reasonale consumer level signal out of your interface by
- selecting proper reference level for the output
- turning the output volume down a little

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • ramses
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Re: USB cable

Please provide a drawing of your setup and a screenshot of the relevant inputs and outputs in TM FX with reflevel settings visible and the submix selected towards amp input.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2012-02-21
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Re: USB cable

point is that when the hi gain reamp setup is not involved the noise coming from USB is not sonible at all. Main part is the input of hi gain amplifier that is reamped. So without experience of hi gain reamping I think nobody will hear any disturbance coming from USB. So again - it's case only for hi gain reamping.

Reamp is done like this:
- audio track of dry guitar is played out through the output of RME => reamp box (impedance adjustment) => hi gain input of amplifier => torpedo (which is just power break) => back to input of RME. This is generic setup of reamping.

10 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-03-30 22:08:13)

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Re: USB cable

I am also doing such kind of things, but without issues.
I am using an UFX+ as well for things like creating a parallel effect loop, adding external FX (PCM81, PCM91).
I would guess you have an issue with levels if you use a high gain amp, but not with USB.

Older version of my setup here
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … -DURec-DE/

Now stereo setup with two Marshall combos and the two Lexicons, see drawing below.
Using it as well for re-amping, but only in rare cases. Mostly when looking for proper mic position at the amps (2x2).

Example recording:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … orrow-mp3/

Setup:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachment/2955-current-setup-2022-jpg/

Guitar        PCM81  PCM91
   |               || ||       || ||
  Inst           || ||       || ||
*****UFX+*****************
   |                |           |               |
Guvnor         |           |               |
   |            EffSnd     EffRet     EffRet
   |                |           |               |
Marshall L---+         ComboL ComboR

Signal Chain:
Guitar---UFX+---Guvnor---Amp---EffSnd---UFX+---PCM81/91(100% Wet)---EffRet (Guit+FX)---ComboL/R

Can also be used for reamping, as I am plugging the Guitar into Instr Input and record the pure Guitar Signal as well.

Which sounds btw like this unprocessed (no Amp, no Amp VST) when using e.g. Jazz Guitar like in this case:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … -320b-mp3/

Reference Levels used at the UFX+:
Analog Out to Guvnor: -10 dBV (consumer level)
Amp Effect Send to Analog In: Lo Gain (max headroom, the highest insensitivity)
UFX+ to External Effects: +4 dBu
External Effects to UFX+: again Lo Gain (max headroom, the highest insensitivity)
UFX+ to Effect Return (Power Amp of Combo): -10 dBV (consumer Level)

I keep the levels low for silent recording, so that the amp doesn't get too loud.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2012-02-21
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Re: USB cable

yes, external FX used. The outputs are set on +4dB. any signal is not clamped or going very close to 0.
If I decrease the output level then I have to increase input level in hi-gain amp. And this has of course the same effect - disturbance is amplified no matter of whether it's on UFX output or hi-gain amp input.

12 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-03-30 22:02:07)

  • ramses
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Re: USB cable

At the end of the day .. invest €20 into shielded cable and try whether it makes a difference, no big deal.

But, can you pls send a sound example, so that its better understandable what and what amount of noise we talk about?

BTW, you posted faster than me, pls see above my setup and sound examples.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

13 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-03-31 11:33:36)

  • ramses
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Re: USB cable

studio.x007 wrote:

yes, external FX used. The outputs are set on +4dB. any signal is not clamped or going very close to 0.
If I decrease the output level then I have to increase input level in hi-gain amp. And this has of course the same effect - disturbance is amplified no matter of whether it's on UFX output or hi-gain amp input.

Can you try something like standalone mode, USB not plugged?

Are all devices on the same power strip?

2 months ago I invested into a 10m USB3 corning cable to get finally 10+3=13m.
This way I have a longer cable, better placement of components possible.
This gives now additionally galvanic separation, but I had no issues even before, my basic setup is the same since months.
BTW, it turned out that this corning cable works better with USB3 ports from Intel chipset compared to card with FL1100.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • ramses
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Re: USB cable

Or use assign and define a cue port, e.g. to phones (or Main)
and then listen to the submix (at the HW output) using the CUE knob, what you send to the device ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14