Topic: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

I have an ADI-2 DAC FS and ADI-2/4 Pro SE.  Below is a sample of the Auto Reference Level differences between the 2 units, for the same volume level. 

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is going on here?  I assume there is a sonic benefit to this?  If there is no sonic benefit, what is the purpose the expanded Auto Reference Level settings for the ADI-2/4 Pro? 

Thank you.


https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous-Audio/i-CfN9Mbb/0/D7gkm2SKwBnpG92C4sKgH9ffFw3xhGbNgtrmpZVhw/XL/RME_AutoReference-XL.jpg

2 (edited by jmimac351 2024-03-08 02:08:45)

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

Here is another thing I noticed.  It shows XLR as "+1 dBu" under the "Reference" column.  It also appears to show the Phones and IEM as "unplugged" (if that's what that means).

The thing is... I'm outputting via XLR, and they are no RCA / Unbalanced cords plugged into the unit.  If "(unpl.)" does mean "unplugged", shouldn't that show next to Line Out RCA.  And should the XLR output actually be showing "+1dBu" on the main screen? 

I'm probably just ignorant to what it's doing, but it would be nice to better know the effect of the differences between the 2 units... especially any "real world / daily use" impact.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous-Audio/i-f8fzKbn/0/LxsLBQZ8WbmmMfk3Pc9HJ9ZFvxxFpVP7LDdtMSMm/XL/RME_AutoReference2-XL.jpg

3 (edited by ramses 2024-03-08 07:32:53)

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

jmimac351 wrote:

I have an ADI-2 DAC FS and ADI-2/4 Pro SE.  Below is a sample of the Auto Reference Level differences between the 2 units, for the same volume level. 

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is going on here?  I assume there is a sonic benefit to this?  If there is no sonic benefit, what is the purpose the expanded Auto Reference Level settings for the ADI-2/4 Pro? 

Thank you.

Look at the technical specs in the manual.
The ADI-2/4 Pro has one reference level more (5 instead of 4)  to keep up SNR/dynamic over an even wider range.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

4 (edited by KaiS 2024-03-08 08:12:25)

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

Nominal/displayed Reference Levels on ADI-2 DAC refer to the RCA outputs.
The levels on the XLRs are 6 dB (one step) higher than displayed on the device.
The Remote app shows the real levels.

On both the “Pro”-models, nominal/displayed Reference Levels are for both the XLRs and the Rear TRSs up to +19 dBu.
For technical reason Rear TRSs can’t do +24 dBu, so they don”t follow the XLRs on this last step.


On both models there’s no sensing if line outs RCA, Rear TRS or XLR is plugged.
Only all the front headphones outputs have a plug sensing.

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

jmimac351 wrote:

Here is another thing I noticed.  It shows XLR as "+1 dBu" under the "Reference" column.  It also appears to show the Phones and IEM as "unplugged" (if that's what that means).

The thing is... I'm outputting via XLR, and they are no RCA / Unbalanced cords plugged into the unit.  If "(unpl.)" does mean "unplugged", shouldn't that show next to Line Out RCA.  And should the XLR output actually be showing "+1dBu" on the main screen? 

I'm probably just ignorant to what it's doing, but it would be nice to better know the effect of the differences between the 2 units... especially any "real world / daily use" impact.

Do not know it exactly but I could think of the following.
The two D/A converter can now also be assigned to XLR and TRS on the back separately to support e.g., a mastering chain.
That was requested in the past by different people.

I assume then there is no DA converter left for phones in that case, and then it is being displayed as unplugged.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

6 (edited by ramses 2024-03-08 07:54:50)

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

KaiS wrote:

Nominal/displayed Reference Levels on ADI-2 DAC refer to the RCA outputs.
The levels on the XLRs are 6 dB (one step) higher than displayed.

On both the “Pro”-models nominal/displayed Reference Levels are for both the XLRs and the Rear TRSs up to +19 dBu.
For technical reason Rear TRSs can’t do +24 dBu, so they don”t follow the XLR on this last step.

@jmimac351: The ref level differences between
— ADI-2 Pro FS (slightly older model) and ADI-2 DAC FS
— XLR and RCA outputs on the ADI-2 DAC FS
and the effect of dynamic loudness in terms of SNR you can see here in this screenshot of an Excel:

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachment/2915-overview-adi-2-dac-pro-dbu-auto-reflevel-ranges-snr-v002-jpg/

From my blog article here: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … ses-EN-DE/

With the latest models the SNR is only a little higher and the ADI-2/4 Pro SE is also not yet in here,
but maybe I do this on the weekend.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

7 (edited by KaiS 2024-03-08 08:04:44)

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

Forgot to mention:
Line outs (XLR, RCA and Rear TRS) have options to be switched “off” in the menu or by plugging ‘phones.

This is why they are displayed “On” or “Off” in the Remote app.

8 (edited by jmimac351 2024-03-08 18:59:14)

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

I read the numbers / specs... but what is the practical, experiential benefit of the expanded range for the ADI-2/4 Pro?  Is it at low level listening, high level listening... is the ADI-2/4 better at all levels?  I am ignorant to the technical benefits of what that means.

I see that the Auto Reference Levels appear to match from +1 to +19, with the ADI-2 DAC FS not having +24dBu.  What is interesting is the Auto Ref readings on the remote app between the two units is different, at the same volume level. What I'm trying to understand is - What is the practical benefit / difference between the 2 units as it relates to that?  At that "same volume level" on the main dial, what is the output difference / benefit between the 2 units and, most importantly, why is one sonically better than the other (if so)?

On the ADI-2 DAC FS it is showing -5dBu.

On the ADI-2/4 Pro SE it is showing -1dBu.

================

ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Levels
The levels at the XLR output: +1, +7, +13, +19 dBu.

ADI-2/4 Pro SE - Auto Reference Levels
The levels at the XLR output: +1, +7, +13, +19, +24 dBu

https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous-Audio/i-CfN9Mbb/0/D7gkm2SKwBnpG92C4sKgH9ffFw3xhGbNgtrmpZVhw/XL/RME_AutoReference-XL.jpg

9 (edited by KaiS 2024-03-08 21:28:37)

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

You should read my posting again, it explains all about Reference Level differences:

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 93#p215493


The advantage of the Auto Ref Level switching, which happens in the analog domain is:
It keeps the level in the digital domain high at a wider range of volume settings, to optimize SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio) and resolution.

Practically this means, you will never hear any noise from ADI-2.
It‘s dynamic range exceeds those of the human hearing.

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

jmimac351 wrote:

I have an ADI-2 DAC FS and ADI-2/4 Pro SE.  Below is a sample of the Auto Reference Level differences between the 2 units, for the same volume level. 

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is going on here?

ADI-2 DAC / ADI-2/4 PRO have different output voltages (XLR/Cinch):
If the devices are driven with the same digital signal, the ADI-2/4 PRO must be turned down if the same output voltages (volume levels) are required. This is why there are different dB values ("Auto Ref Level = OFF") or dBu Ref Level values ("Auto Ref Level = ON") in the displays or when using the ADI-2 Remote APP.

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

KaiS wrote:

Practically this means, you will never hear any noise from ADI-2.
It‘s dynamic range exceeds those of the human hearing.

Thank you.

12 (edited by KaiS 2024-03-13 10:20:35)

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

weme wrote:
jmimac351 wrote:

I have an ADI-2 DAC FS and ADI-2/4 Pro SE.  Below is a sample of the Auto Reference Level differences between the 2 units, for the same volume level. 

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is going on here?

ADI-2 DAC / ADI-2/4 PRO have different output voltages (XLR/Cinch):
If the devices are driven with the same digital signal, the ADI-2/4 PRO must be turned down if the same output voltages (volume levels) are required. This is why there are different dB values ("Auto Ref Level = OFF") or dBu Ref Level values ("Auto Ref Level = ON") in the displays or when using the ADI-2 Remote APP.

In fact the only level that is different from the displayed Ref Level is ADI-2 DAC‘s XLR output, which is 6 dB hotter (than RCA).


Of course the dBr values (Auto Ref Level “On“) are different between the DAC and the Pro‘s, as dBr is referenced to full-scale, which is higher on the Pro‘s.


In the recording studio we typically run higher levels than are usual in a home environment.
A lot of home equipment would be overloaded with such high levels, hence the diffrence.
Look, e.g. at Yamaha home audio stuff: most of their integrated amps can just take ca. +10 dBu and would be hopelessly overdriven with professional +24 dBu.

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

KaiS wrote:
weme wrote:
jmimac351 wrote:

I have an ADI-2 DAC FS and ADI-2/4 Pro SE.  Below is a sample of the Auto Reference Level differences between the 2 units, for the same volume level. 

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is going on here?

ADI-2 DAC / ADI-2/4 PRO have different output voltages (XLR/Cinch):
If the devices are driven with the same digital signal, the ADI-2/4 PRO must be turned down if the same output voltages (volume levels) are required. This is why there are different dB values ("Auto Ref Level = OFF") or dBu Ref Level values ("Auto Ref Level = ON") in the displays or when using the ADI-2 Remote APP.

In fact the only level that is different from the displayed Ref Level is ADI-2 DAC‘s XLR output, which is 6 dB hotter (than RCA).
ween the DAC and the Pro‘s, as dBr is referenced to full-scale, which is higher on the Pro‘s.

Only the marketing aspect is to blame for this difference. But it's also very good mental training for people who use ADI-2 DAC/PRO devices in parallel ... I also benefit from it.

KaiS wrote:

Of course the dBr values (Auto Ref Level “On“) are different between the DAC and the Pro‘s, as dBr is referenced to full-scale, which is higher on the Pro‘s.

And the dB values are only the same if both devices (here: ADI-2 DAC FS and ADI-2/4 Pro SE) are set to the same "Ref Level".

14 (edited by KaiS 2024-03-15 13:04:57)

Re: ADI-2/4 Pro SE vs ADI-2 DAC FS - Auto Reference Level

weme wrote:
KaiS wrote:

Of course the dBr values (Auto Ref Level “On“) are different between the DAC and the Pro‘s, as dBr is referenced to full-scale, which is higher on the Pro‘s.

And the dB values are only the same if both devices (here: ADI-2 DAC FS and ADI-2/4 Pro SE) are set to the same "Ref Level".

The “r“ in dBr only appears when Auto Ref Level is “ON”.
Then ADI-2, not the user, sets and varies the Reference Level.


With user manually set Reference Level to the same nominal value the levels are the same for all devices and outputs (exemptions in brackets):

ADI-2 DAC: RCA (XLR is 6 dB hotter).
ADI-2 Pro: XLR and Rear TRS (TRS only up to 19 dBu Ref Level).
ADI-2/4 Pro SE: XLR and Rear TRS (TRS only up to 19 dBu Ref Level).


I don’t know how to tell this mosre condensed, hope it’s all clear now.