1 Topic by polar_light (edited by polar_light 2024-04-03 10:48:23)

  • Registered: 2024-04-03
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Topic: Fireface UCX II + Fender Tone Master Pro

Hello RME community,

I am new to this whole recording world and I was wondering if you could help me with a few questions.

1. When I connect the Inputs 5/6 of my Fireface with the Outputs 1 and 2 of my Tone Master Pro there are a few things I noticed.
At first I was using instrument cables. With these cables the volume level was rather quiet (I checked the level of Analog 5/6 and its on 0db). Therefore I switched to speaker cables and the volume level was getting louder. Now my question is: What is the best way to connect my Tone Master Pro with the Fireface and what kind of cables should I use?

2. With my connection described above I tried to play along to some songs. My main output volume level is on -15db in order to hear my guitar sound from my Tone Master Pro. At the same time I have to reduce the volume in my playback software (Apple Music). Otherwise the music would be way too loud and I would not be able to hear my guitar. Is there another way to control this in Totalmix?

3. Right now, I have connected my guitar to my Tone Master Pro but I would rather connect the guitar to my Fireface and send the Input signal to my Tone Master Pro and then back to my Fireface. Is this possible and how? The Tone Master Pro has no digital In- or Output.

Thank you for your help!

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-04-03 13:46:21)

  • ramses
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Re: Fireface UCX II + Fender Tone Master Pro

polar_light wrote:

Hello RME community,

I am new to this whole recording world and I was wondering if you could help me with a few questions.

1. When I connect the Inputs 5/6 of my Fireface with the Outputs 1 and 2 of my Tone Master Pro there are a few things I noticed.
At first I was using instrument cables. With these cables the volume level was rather quiet (I checked the level of Analog 5/6 and its on 0db). Therefore I switched to speaker cables and the volume level was getting louder. Now my question is: What is the best way to connect my Tone Master Pro with the Fireface and what kind of cables should I use?

2. With my connection described above I tried to play along to some songs. My main output volume level is on -15db in order to hear my guitar sound from my Tone Master Pro. At the same time I have to reduce the volume in my playback software (Apple Music). Otherwise the music would be way too loud and I would not be able to hear my guitar. Is there another way to control this in Totalmix?

[...]

Thank you for your help!

According to the Fender Tone Master Pro manual, Output 1 and 2 support balanced operation.
https://www.fmicassets.com/Damroot/Orig … PRO_EN.pdf

Balanced connections are preferable over unbalanced connections because a special circuit eliminates noise out of the signal which is sent in different (+/-) polarity. Also beneficial, the higher signal level, which is good when you have to use longer cables in the studio or on stage.

Side note: Output 1 can also be used unbalanced (not so sure about Output 2) then the signal level is also lower. But as we would rather not use an unbalanced connection, we skip this option and concentrate on the balanced connections.

So you can use on Output 1 either an "XLR to TRS" or "TRS to TRS" cable, depending on what cable you have / prefer.

Output 1 and Output 2 support different signal levels.
The default is "line" level, but you can also configure "instrument" level, which is lower.

Output1: balanced, "Line" (default): 12.0V = 23.8 dBu
Output1: balanced, "instrument":       3.9V = 14.0 dBu
Output2: balanced, "Line" (default):   4.7V = 15.7 dBu
Output2: balanced, "instrument":       2.8V = 11.2 dBu

The calculation you can repeat yourself using: https://sengpielaudio.com/Rechner-db-volt.htm

Now look into your UCX II's manual, ch 39.1: https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/fface_ucx2_e.pdf

There you see the different supported reference levels of analog inputs:
AD, Line In 5-8, rear
- Input sensitivity switchable to +19 dBu and +13 dBu

So, the maximum supported input level of AN5/6 is +19 dBu.

Settings on UCX II in TM FX

For AN 5/6 you need to choose the reference level "+19 dBu" to make the analog input as insensitive as possible to support hot signals up to +19 dBu.

Settings on Fender Tonemaster

Configure "instrument" level for Output 1, so that the signal is not higher than 14 dBu (3.9V max). Then you have still a headroom of 5 dB up to 19 dBu which is good.
The default, "line" level, with up to ~24 dBu would overload the input and distortion would be the result.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-04-03 13:49:39)

  • ramses
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Re: Fireface UCX II + Fender Tone Master Pro

polar_light wrote:

3. Right now, I have connected my guitar to my Tone Master Pro but I would rather connect the guitar to my Fireface and send the Input signal to my Tone Master Pro and then back to my Fireface. Is this possible and how? The Tone Master Pro has no digital In- or Output.

This is easily possible in a few steps, see below.

I am doing the same here with an UFX III for additional use cases like:

Option: another nice use case. The guitar signal from inst input I route additionally to another free output towards a Korg Pitchblade X Pro chromatic tuner. Also highlighted below in the ASCII drawing as an option.

The single steps for setting this up

  • You connect your guitar to an Inst input of your UCX II in the front using a normal TS/TS guitar cable. Lets assume HW Input AN3 in this case.

  • In TM FX set HW input AN3 to "Instrument" (note: click to the wrench symbol to get these additional channel controls).

  • This guitar input signal you can route to a free output of your UCX II and connect it with the guitar input of your Tonemaster Pro using another cable with TS/TS plug (guitar or other patch cable). Lets assume HW Output AN5 for this example

  • In TM FX ensure you are in submix mode (see on right side blue area) for all further routing operations.

  • In TM FX click to (select the submix of) HW Output AN5. You will see now the submix of this output by looking at the fader positions of TM FX top row ("audio from inputs") and middle row ("audio from PC"). Ensure that only the fader for the instrument input HW Input AN3 is up (routed to this output).

  • Option: if you want to use a rack tuner for the guitar like I do and as shown below in the drawing: Click to the HW Output AN6. By this, you see the submix of this output by looking at the fader positions of TM FX top row (audio from inputs) and middle row (audio from PC). Ensure that only the fader for the instrument input HW Input AN3 is up (routed to this output).

  • As output level, I recommend using a low output level not to overload the guitar input of the Tonemaster Pro. Use the lowest reference level of +4 dBu and then reduce the volume by moving the fader down if needed.

  • If you hear the Guitar also on your active monitors then you need to correct the submix for your active monitors. Assumed they are connected to HW Output AN 1/2. Select this HW output with the mouse and observe the channels which route into this output according to fader positions as you did above. Check that the fader for HW Input AN3 (guitar) is down. Otherwise you would hear the unprocessed raw signal of your guitar through your monitors. Repeat this step/check for your phones output as well, also there you only want to hear the processed guitar signal.

Any step in between, you can save in TM FX in a free snapshot of your choice.
Do not forget to save the whole setup to the computer by saving the workspace (save workspace as).
Besides Routing/Snapshots a workspace saves the whole setup including channel and window settings and window position.

The Setup as ASCII drawing for a better overview

                              PC
                               |
Guit------>AN3---UCX II---AN6-------option:------------>Input---Korg Pitchblack X Pro (Rack Tuner)
                                 \  \---AN5-------------------->Instrument---Tonemaster Pro
                                  \                                                                         /
                                   \---AN5/6<---------------Output1 (XLR or TRS)---/


Recording and monitoring

In your DAW recordings you can now record
- HW Input AN3: the raw guitar signal
- HW Input AN 5/6: the processed guitar signal

Your monitor submix (through active monitors or headphones) you can fine tune in TotalMix FX.
Select the HW output in submix mode and observe the submix according to fader position.
Adjust the volume of
- your Backing track (see middle row, audio from PC), most likely SW Playback AN1/2 if you send the DAW sum to there
   (you can also identify the channel by watching metering activity)
- the processed guitar signal (HW Input AN 5/6)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2024-04-03
  • Posts: 3

Re: Fireface UCX II + Fender Tone Master Pro

ramses wrote:
polar_light wrote:

3. Right now, I have connected my guitar to my Tone Master Pro but I would rather connect the guitar to my Fireface and send the Input signal to my Tone Master Pro and then back to my Fireface. Is this possible and how? The Tone Master Pro has no digital In- or Output.

This is easily possible in a few steps, see below.

I am doing the same here with an UFX III for additional use cases like:

Option: another nice use case. The guitar signal from inst input I route additionally to another free output towards a Korg Pitchblade X Pro chromatic tuner. Also highlighted below in the ASCII drawing as an option.

The single steps for setting this up

  • You connect your guitar to an Inst input of your UCX II in the front using a normal TS/TS guitar cable. Lets assume HW Input AN3 in this case.

  • In TM FX set HW input AN3 to "Instrument" (note: click to the wrench symbol to get these additional channel controls).

  • This guitar input signal you can route to a free output of your UCX II and connect it with the guitar input of your Tonemaster Pro using another cable with TS/TS plug (guitar or other patch cable). Lets assume HW Output AN5 for this example

  • In TM FX ensure you are in submix mode (see on right side blue area) for all further routing operations.

  • In TM FX click to (select the submix of) HW Output AN5. You will see now the submix of this output by looking at the fader positions of TM FX top row ("audio from inputs") and middle row ("audio from PC"). Ensure that only the fader for the instrument input HW Input AN3 is up (routed to this output).

  • Option: if you want to use a rack tuner for the guitar like I do and as shown below in the drawing: Click to the HW Output AN6. By this, you see the submix of this output by looking at the fader positions of TM FX top row (audio from inputs) and middle row (audio from PC). Ensure that only the fader for the instrument input HW Input AN3 is up (routed to this output).

  • As output level, I recommend using a low output level not to overload the guitar input of the Tonemaster Pro. Use the lowest reference level of +4 dBu and then reduce the volume by moving the fader down if needed.

  • If you hear the Guitar also on your active monitors then you need to correct the submix for your active monitors. Assumed they are connected to HW Output AN 1/2. Select this HW output with the mouse and observe the channels which route into this output according to fader positions as you did above. Check that the fader for HW Input AN3 (guitar) is down. Otherwise you would hear the unprocessed raw signal of your guitar through your monitors. Repeat this step/check for your phones output as well, also there you only want to hear the processed guitar signal.

Any step in between, you can save in TM FX in a free snapshot of your choice.
Do not forget to save the whole setup to the computer by saving the workspace (save workspace as).
Besides Routing/Snapshots a workspace saves the whole setup including channel and window settings and window position.

The Setup as ASCII drawing for a better overview

                              PC
                               |
Guit------>AN3---UCX II---AN6-------option:------------>Input---Korg Pitchblack X Pro (Rack Tuner)
                                 \  \---AN5-------------------->Instrument---Tonemaster Pro
                                  \                                                                         /
                                   \---AN5/6<---------------Output1 (XLR or TRS)---/


Recording and monitoring

In your DAW recordings you can now record
- HW Input AN3: the raw guitar signal
- HW Input AN 5/6: the processed guitar signal

Your monitor submix (through active monitors or headphones) you can fine tune in TotalMix FX.
Select the HW output in submix mode and observe the submix according to fader position.
Adjust the volume of
- your Backing track (see middle row, audio from PC), most likely SW Playback AN1/2 if you send the DAW sum to there
   (you can also identify the channel by watching metering activity)
- the processed guitar signal (HW Input AN 5/6)

Man, you are a genius!!! Thank you for the detailed tips, it works now!
Regarding your first post: I tried to changed the setting for HW Input 5/6 to +19dBu as you recommended. The output is getting quieter. I assume the advantage of that is that you can now max out the Master Volume of the Tonemaster Pro without getting clipping. In the Tonemaster Pro I still have to turn up the Preset Volume and Master Knob to get a good volume. I also noticed that I can change the volume for any signal coming from my Mac in the Software Playback area which is great.
My last question: Is there a recommended volume setting for the Main Output (e.g. -16.0 or -20.0)?
Thanks again for the fast response! (:

5 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-04-03 20:56:30)

  • ramses
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Re: Fireface UCX II + Fender Tone Master Pro

polar_light wrote:

Man, you are a genius!!! Thank you for the detailed tips, it works now!

Nice to hear, you're welcome.

polar_light wrote:

Regarding your first post: I tried to changed the setting for HW Input 5/6 to +19dBu as you recommended. The output is getting quieter. I assume the advantage of that is that you can now max out the Master Volume of the Tonemaster Pro without getting clipping. In the Tonemaster Pro I still have to turn up the Preset Volume and Master Knob to get a good volume.

The goal is to not overload the inputs.
If the input signal should be too silent, then feel free to experiment.
Configure line level on the tone master again and try all presets how loud the final volume is.
Additionally, you can try to reduce the output volume of the Tonemaster Pro.

After some time you will get the feeling what is or what sounds better to you. Either the lower "instrument" level or the louder "line" level plus the possibility to reduce the output volume then by a few dB, if needed.

polar_light wrote:

I also noticed that I can change the volume for any signal coming from my Mac in the Software Playback area which is great.

Yes sure, this is possible.
And the great thing about TotalMix FX is, that audio from the computer arrives 1st in the middle row "SW playbacks".
This concept makes it possible, that every HW output can get now an individual submix of
- audio from any HW inputs (with near zero latency)
- audio from any PC output (with the additional latency for the transport over USB)
TM FX is then like a patch bay.

polar_light wrote:

My last question: Is there a recommended volume setting for the Main Output (e.g. -16.0 or -20.0)?

To set Main Out to your monitors to -10, -20 or -30 is no issue.
But careful, a "wrong" double click might bring the output fader to 0dB and this can become very loud.

Best is to configure the ref level with the lowest volume.
Some active monitors have also DIP switches to reduce the input sensitivity or even a volume poti.

But it can still be too loud when faders are at 0dB.

The best is to fix such volume mismatches entirely.
Either by buying a passive monitor controller / volume knob.
Or by getting a switchable passive attenuator, which does not change audio quality in any way.

See thread about how to fix level mismatches: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=25399

Passive attenuator does not have to be expensive, this one does well:
https://www.thomann.de/de/jts_ma_123.htm

An alternative are products like this
https://www.thomann.de/de/mackie_big_knob_passive.htm

There is also another solution possible which is the most expensive one..
I am using an ADI-2 Pro FS R BE for this and other purposes.
The ADI-2 Pro remembers the last volume level and has very nice features for the monitoring section.
In this case, the output fader to the ADI-2 Pro can stay at 0 dB (and it doesn't hurt) wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • ramses
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Re: Fireface UCX II + Fender Tone Master Pro

Some additional tips

You can activate "Autoset" at the UCX II's instrument input to find the optimum input level automatically.
Use the Gain knob to dial-in a little to high gain factor.
Then strum into the strings and generate as much as possible output with your guitar.
Autoset will turn down the gain automatically for an optimum input level.
After this excercise you disable Autoset and update your TM FX snapshot with this new value.

If you are using humbucker and single coil pickups you can use also the 2nd Instr input (HW Input AN4) for single coil pickups with a slightly higher gain setting, for me it was +3 dB more gain compared to humbucker. But it were Fender Texas Special with a little bit higher volume, maybe you need more gain. You can use again Autoset to find the optimum gain level.

Also route this Instrument input to the output towards Tonemaster.

Now one word of caution .. If you use only one of the two Instr inputs then I would mute the one which is not in use.
Why? Because an open input can generate noise that you do not want to hear in the submix.

The probably best solution is perhaps to save the settings into two different TM FX snapshots.
One with Instr Input AN3 enabled and AN4 muted, the other snapshot vice versa.
This way you prevent unnecessary noise entering the submix towards the Tonemaster.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • ramses
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Re: Fireface UCX II + Fender Tone Master Pro

Only in case you are interested, no must!

Integration of ADI-2 Pro FS into your setup (via UCX II, AES port or ADAT):

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … our-Setup/

Some more interesting information about the ADI-2 Pro FS I put together here:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … ses-EN-DE/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2024-04-03
  • Posts: 3

Re: Fireface UCX II + Fender Tone Master Pro

Thanks again for all your advices! They were very helpful! This is going to be a nice weekend. (: