Topic: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

With the new features of Total Mix, newer Interface from RME are getting really close to be able to replace really expensive monitoring controllers. The new Room-EQ you can now adapt speakers to your studio and compensate for time differences using delay. What still seems to be missing is Bass Management, or is it? Is there a way to place a low cut/high cut filter accordingly to route some of your low frequency content from the satellites to the sub? This seems like an important feature - especially for immersive setups, as it is difficult (and expensive) to make the 7 floor speakers  truly full-range.

And what about other features? What is missing to replace a monitor controller for a 7.1.4 system? I need a volume controller with mute (and maybe some other features if possible) controlling the volume for the full 7.1.4 system. I suppose the RME ARC USB connected to a Madiface XT II should allow me that. Regarding output channels there are many options available already, both for digital and analog speakers. Other than that I just need eq, delay and bass management per channel. Actually, I do not even need the eq, as I am targeting a 7.1.4-system featuring Neumann DSP monitors and the room adjustment happens in the speaker itself. So, all that I really need in my specific case is the bass management and the volume control.
Am I missing something?

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

You can use the routing capabilities of total mix in conjunction with room and/or channel eq to setup bass management.

For volume control you can easily make a fader group which includes your main out (left/right) and control it from the main out.
For muting a mute group.

Just solo‘ing individual output channels is not as straightforward as it should be, although there are workarounds for pretty much everything when you use snapshots or workspace quick select.

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

hselters wrote:

You can use the routing capabilities of total mix in conjunction with room and/or channel eq to setup bass management.

Can you specifically say how to do that? I suppose you mean routing the satellite channels of your DAW/Computer to both the satellite outs and to a sub, but using an EQ to filter what frequency range goes where. But how would you do that exactly? And where in the chain do you set the EQs?

4 (edited by hselters 2024-08-14 16:06:44)

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

Not super specifically as things depend on your setup, but as a start (I hope that others also share their experience, or maybe RME even wants to do a tutorial).

You set a high pass on your satellites and a low pass on the sub output channel (Hardware Outputs in Total Mix), using the same crossover frequency.
Then mix all satellite signals which arrive from your DAW in the software playback channels of Total Mix to the Hardware Output of your Subwoofer. You might wanna tweak the levels there and – depending on the gain setting of your Subwoofer – feed it with less than 0dB from the satellites. You also might wanna take into account the LFE convention for theatrical mixing, which sets the LFE channel to +10 dB.

The best cutoff frequency and slope depend on your speaker model / setup / room acoustics. It can also affect how much SPL your system will be able to reproduce in the end, depending on the capabilities of speaker and subwoofer. Checking your satellites frequency response is a good starting point for finding the cutoff, often they sit around 80Hz.
For setting the filter slope see the following topic for some info on how to combine them to achieve 24 db/Oct, as one filter only gives you 12 db/Oct and you might get better results with 24. 18 dB/Oct is not possible afaik.
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=38865

Another limitation is that once you set the low pass on your Sub Output at around 80Hz, that channel won't reproduce frequencies up to 120 Hz anymore. As the filters in Total Mix can only sit on the Hardware Outputs, not on the Software Playback Channels (would be great if that option could be added to Total Mix).
The Dolby Atmos specification probably wants you to have the LFE reproducing up to 120 Hz. This might be neglect-able in practice.
Otherwise: A possible workaround could be to use two Hardware Output channels for integrating the Sub, one for the LFE and a second for its Bass Management purposes which you would connect to the Subwoofer's satellite inputs. You'd then be bound to its internal crossover though and need to match that for the satellite Hi Pass.

Either way, I would recommend something like Room EQ Wizard for subwoofer integration based on measurements.
Start with finding the best position for the sub in the room, then set gains, crossovers and correction EQ against room modes.

I also always cross check with reference tracks which I know really well.

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

Look into how you can freely route playback channels to hw outs, and hw outs can be looped back to inputs.
It is quite easy to build a bass mgmt for such a setup.
Then using the RME ARC usb connected directly to your RME interface, you have a sweet monitor controller.

However, even if this is quite easy todo, I still wish that RME had built an easier way todo BM with totalmix. Also an option to disable three channel EQ and just incorporate the bands into Room EQ.

Pål

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

@hselters
Thank you for the detailed reply! The problem that the 80db cutoff will have to reflect on the satellites split to the sub just as the LFE channel was what I was already afraid of as a limitation. It seems, that what you describe would work just as well with RME hardware without the new room-eq with older RME hardware with total mix FX.

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

psvennevig wrote:

However, even if this is quite easy todo, I still wish that RME had built an easier way todo BM with totalmix. Also an option to disable three channel EQ and just incorporate the bands into Room EQ.
l

I agree: RME could do some amazing stuff with the DSP! The interface is the best place to do all monitor controlling, bass management and so on! The DSP can practically do all of that latency free. Having external equipment often has some disadvantages and also ties you to certain vendors. I wish RME interfaces could offer even more features like modern room eq software offers. I think it would be great to have something like DIRAC in your RME interface. It does more than just EQing, also corrects the phase. And the new Neumann DSP speakers do the same. But when you want to build an Atmos setup, you are then forced to use Neumann exclusively including the subwoofer. And Neumann currently even doesn't offer a fitting sub for an Atmos setup that is DSP. That's why it is obvious that these features in the interface would give you a ton of more options how to build such a system.

I know how to loop back outputs to the ins, but I don't really get how that would help with the bass management by the way ...

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

psvennevig wrote:

I know how to loop back outputs to the ins, but I don't really get how that would help with the bass management by the way ...

Thru a DAW, the bass EQ etc has to be plugin in the DAW.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

waedi wrote:
psvennevig wrote:

I know how to loop back outputs to the ins, but I don't really get how that would help with the bass management by the way ...

Thru a DAW, the bass EQ etc has to be plugin in the DAW.

You quoted psvennevig, but that was actually something I wrote. Nevertheless: why do you think you need the use the DAWs filter? Why not use the output filters from Total Mix FX?

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

trubadix wrote:

It seems, that what you describe would work just as well with RME hardware without the new room-eq with older RME hardware with total mix FX.

Yes. If you set speaker delays and eq in the dsp of your loudspeaker, you’ll propably be fine without room eq.

Which subwoofer / speakers are you using?
And do you really need bass management for all?
I am currently getting away with a 5.1 bass managed system through the subwoofers internal crossovers and the rear and top speakers are playing unmanaged down to their roll off.
So far that works for me, the Atmos mixes i did (and heard) usually don’t contain sub frequencies in those anyways.

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

hselters wrote:

Which subwoofer / speakers are you using?
And do you really need bass management for all?
I am currently getting away with a 5.1 bass managed system through the subwoofers internal crossovers and the rear and top speakers are playing unmanaged down to their roll off.
So far that works for me, the Atmos mixes i did (and heard) usually don’t contain sub frequencies in those anyways.

I currently have a 5.1 Studio that is already complete and I have a larger place that I hope to become an Atmos setup in 1 - 2 years. But right now, I just have a stereo pair of Neumann KH 150 for that place. I also got an older Adam Sub 10 for experimentation. But I think I want to go all Neumann for the final system. A fitting DSP Sub from Neumann is not yet available (they only got the KH 750 equipped with DSP at this point), but I am confident there larger Sub will soon be equipped with DSP as well. So, maybe I will just wait for that.

I think it is is pretty essential to have all floor speakers to get very even in a 7.1 setup. I suppose, the ceiling speakers will not need bass management and I will also go with smaller speakers (maybe KH 80) for these. But I don't know that yet, as I have no experience with Atmos. But I learned from my 5.1 setup that you don't really get away with using different (cheaper) speakers for the rears. That did not work at all.

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

trubadix wrote:

A fitting DSP Sub from Neumann is not yet available (they only got the KH 750 equipped with DSP at this point)

And what is wrong with the KH 750 DSP?

Fireface UCX II + ARC USB > ADI-2 Pro FS R BE > Neumann KH 750 DSP + MA 1 > KH 120 A

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

unpluggged wrote:
trubadix wrote:

A fitting DSP Sub from Neumann is not yet available (they only got the KH 750 equipped with DSP at this point)

And what is wrong with the KH 750 DSP?

Not enough output for his use case, I guess. It's not a particularly powerful subwoofer for a surround setup.

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

Muffin wrote:
unpluggged wrote:
trubadix wrote:

A fitting DSP Sub from Neumann is not yet available (they only got the KH 750 equipped with DSP at this point)

And what is wrong with the KH 750 DSP?

Not enough output for his use case, I guess. It's not a particularly powerful subwoofer for a surround setup.

Exactly! It would rather be good for bass management for as long as I use just two KH 150 as a stereo set. But I will first test with the Adam Sub 10. The thing is that I already know from measurements that the Sub 10 is delayed by about 10 ms which introduces extra latency as you need to align the sub with the satellites. I read somewhere that the Neumann subs are better in that regard.

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

Muffin wrote:
unpluggged wrote:
trubadix wrote:

A fitting DSP Sub from Neumann is not yet available (they only got the KH 750 equipped with DSP at this point)

And what is wrong with the KH 750 DSP?

Not enough output for his use case, I guess. It's not a particularly powerful subwoofer for a surround setup.

Excuse me, but MA 1 software supports setting up multiple KH 750 DSPs in a system. And also AFAIK, SPL capability requirement does not depend on number of channels, but rather on listening distance, room acoustics, and target monitoring levels, and then you should select the speakers based on their SPL output capabilities. Currently no Neumann network-enabled monitors are able to reach SPLs higher than would require using more than two KH 750 DSP subs in any room, unless you need all your Atmos channels to output sound at their maximum volume. But even then you can use additional subs. This implies your room is large enough to facilitate several subs distributed over the room's area. And when the output of a single KH 750 DSP isn't enough, it's better to add one or two of the same model that will be fully supported and calibrated by the Neumann software rather than to try to match a third-party sub using a generic EQ tool that provides no support for such complex cases. In the case of Neumann (or Genelec, for this matter) in-house tools, you can demand that the vendor ensures your alignment meets the target. If you use other tools, you are on your own.

RME's Room EQ is indispensible if you already have a supported RME interface and speakers without their own room correction facilities. When the speakers offer such proven capabilities (like these by Genelec and Neumann), however, it's always better to use these.

Fireface UCX II + ARC USB > ADI-2 Pro FS R BE > Neumann KH 750 DSP + MA 1 > KH 120 A

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

unpluggged wrote:

Excuse me, but MA 1 software supports setting up multiple KH 750 DSPs in a system. (...) Currently no Neumann network-enabled monitors are able to reach SPLs higher than would require using more than two KH 750 DSP subs in any room, unless you need all your Atmos channels to output sound at their maximum volume.
(...)
RME's Room EQ is indispensible if you already have a supported RME interface and speakers without their own room correction facilities. When the speakers offer such proven capabilities (like these by Genelec and Neumann), however, it's always better to use these.

Interesting! First, I am not exactly sure whether the KH 750 is sufficient for either my room or the system I intend to work towards. My first concern was primarily the inability to do bass management for more than the stereo channels - hence this post! But since the RME interface might be able to fullfull that purpose, it might indeed be an option. However, when utilising the MA 1 software, there might be an advantage in having the bass management not in the sub itself and that is why I am somewhat reluctant to opt for a subwoofer, as long as it is not known what other DSP subwoofer-options we can expect from Neumann.

I agree that the RME Room EQ is probably great for people with older speaker, but it is somewhat behind ... the room correction of modern software like DIRAC or the integrated MA 1 from Neumann does far more the just equalising. It also is about phase correction and this is what makes the monitoring a lot more precise regarding transients and bass.

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

trubadix wrote:

My first concern was primarily the inability to do bass management for more than the stereo channels - hence this post!

This concern is only valid for analog monitors. In case of network-enabled monitors like your KH 150, the bass management is implemented with these speakers' DSP, so there is no such limitation. MA 1 supports multichannel configurations, and bass management is, of course, available for them. All you need is a set of network-enabled Neumann speakers, a KH 750 DSP subwoofer, the MA 1 kit and the additional MA 1 Multichannel extension (which is a separate purchase, but the price is reasonable and it more than worth it): https://www.neumann.com/en-gb/products/ … -for-ma-1/

But since the RME interface might be able to fullfull that purpose, it might indeed be an option.

Again, you will have to implement bass management elsewhere (you can try using the TotalMix EQ settings, but it's a complex task and the settings are limited). And Room EQ is applied to the whole system, after you have your subwoofer properly integrated.

However, when utilising the MA 1 software, there might be an advantage in having the bass management not in the sub itself and that is why I am somewhat reluctant to opt for a subwoofer, as long as it is not known what other DSP subwoofer-options we can expect from Neumann.

This statement is a bit unclear to me. Bass management by definition requires a subwoofer. And in the case of MA 1, bass management (the low-cut filters) are implemented in the monitors for KH 150 and KH 120 II and in the subwoofer for all analog and also for the KH 80 DSP monitors (refer to the "Bass management processing" chapter of the KH 750 DSP manual).

I agree that the RME Room EQ is probably great for people with older speaker, but it is somewhat behind ... the room correction of modern software like DIRAC or the integrated MA 1 from Neumann does far more the just equalising. It also is about phase correction and this is what makes the monitoring a lot more precise regarding transients and bass.

That's right. But again, bass management and room correction are separate processes. And regarding phase correction, Neumann's DSP speakers are phase-corrected out of the box, you don't need MA 1 for correcting the phase. In the case of analog speakers, however, the KH 750 DSP performs phase correction for connected analog Neumann monitors as part of the MA 1 alignment.

Oh, and there's another point: I don't know much about Atmos and how .1 channel is treated there. Perhaps it's not bass managed at all and is a discrete LFE channel that relies on external processing for filtering...

Fireface UCX II + ARC USB > ADI-2 Pro FS R BE > Neumann KH 750 DSP + MA 1 > KH 120 A

18 (edited by trubadix 2024-08-18 10:23:17)

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

unpluggged wrote:
trubadix wrote:

My first concern was primarily the inability to do bass management for more than the stereo channels - hence this post!

This concern is only valid for analog monitors. In case of network-enabled monitors like your KH 150, the bass management is implemented with these speakers' DSP, so there is no such limitation. MA 1 supports multichannel configurations, and bass management is, of course, available for them. All you need is a set of network-enabled Neumann speakers, a KH 750 DSP subwoofer, the MA 1 kit and the additional MA 1 Multichannel extension (which is a separate purchase, but the price is reasonable and it more than worth it): https://www.neumann.com/en-gb/products/ … -for-ma-1/

Wait, I think we are on to something here! Either of us is misunderstanding something about MA 1's capabilities and I hope it is me! So, let me go back a few steps to figure out what happens with bass management and what MA 1 can and can't do there:

For bass manegenemt I am looking for an ideal cut off frequency for each satellite that the speaker is either no longer able to produce with the required volume or in some cases for matters concerning room acoustics where the speaker cannot be placed to a position to produce that lower frequency properly and the subwoofer is. But regardless of the reasoning, bass management means to redirect lower parts of the signal for each satellite to one or more subwoofers. These subwoofers can be exclusively for that type of function or they double as the LFE in a multi-channel system.

With that in mind, let us look what the Neumann DSP line of speakers can do here: there is an important distinction between the AES67-versions and all other version of the KH-DSP line. The AES67 get audio via ethernet cable, all other versions get the audio via analog input or SPDIF. That means, the ethernet port on the non-AES67 versions are not transferring any audio. They are just there for configuration purposes. As soon as you have have done the calibration and uploaded all of the profiles to these speakers, they no longer require the ethernet connection. And that means (unless I understood that wrong) there is no way for any of those to redirect audio coming to the speaker (regardless whether it is analog or digitally via SPDIF) to the subwoofer. With the AES67 variants it could be possible in theory, but it is not. Bass management with the AES67 is possible with the Neumann Audio interface, though, but as I am going to stay with RME, I did not go for the AES67-versions.

If I am not wrong, you mistakenly assumed that MA 1 was doing any bass management, which it does not! In fact, when you you careful read in the description, the word bass management is only used there, because the KH 750 does it and when you use it, you can use MA 1 on two non-DSP monitors like KH 310:

https://www.neumann.com/de-de/produkte/ … ries/ma-1/

I would be a happy man, if what you suggest would be possible right now. But from my understanding, it is only possible to do bass management before the analog or digital connection to the speaker. And that is why the two options I am looking at are either doing it in the RME interface with total mix or routing all analog (or or potentially digital outs) to a DSP powered Neumann Sub that is not released as of yet. Having DSP on the Sub would only help with alignment and room EQ as long as it is not a newly designed Sub that would just receive all speaker inputs and act as kind of a hub for the full monitoring system. But even with such a hub, the ethernet port of a KH 150 still could not receive any audio signal via the ethernet port unless it is the AES67 version.

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

If you don’t want to wait, I’d consider a combination of the two:
Using the KH 150 with their DSP and get a KH 810 which can do 7.1 BM and calibrating it using the parametric eq and the potentiometers at its back + RME‘s Room EQ. It should give you good results and I wonder if there would be any noticeable benefits with a potential DSP Sub, especially if you‘re not using network or aes based speakers or that Neumann interface.
If you really wish for a complete integrated solution in combination with RME, then maybe look into Genelec GLM.

20 (edited by trubadix 2024-08-18 13:45:32)

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

The thing is, I will have to wait as I don't have the time to quickly set the atmos system up now. I will do a lot of acoustic treatment myself step by step and my current plan is just to set up a stereo working environment with decent acoustics for me to be able to work. From there on I will do a lot of measuring and planing until I feel confident enough to plan out the full system. It also might turn out that an Atmos setup will be too big of a challenge or not worth the effort. In that case I will probably just do another 5.1 system or even quad. But one thins is certain: I am not in a hurry and can wait a bit to see what Neumann or RME come up with. My current concern is only to get the stereo as good as possible and hopefully be able to later re-use everything in the surround setup. And that is why the subwoofer is of concern: the KH 750 is probably good for my current setup, but there might come a better fit for the surround setup. The KH 810 is a bit to expensive for me right now, especially considering that there might be a way more fitting successor coming up ...

The Genelec System surely does look good, but I am already equipped with the Neumanns for now and I will only change that route in case that system does offer anything I cannot ever get with Neumann.

21 (edited by trubadix 2024-08-19 19:54:50)

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

@unplugged: I would still like to know: am I wrong or were you wrong regarding the bass management capabilities of Neumann MA 1? As I said, I would really like to be wrong about this, but I think what you say is currently not possible with their DSP monitors - even the AES67 versions! As I understand, you will always need a separate device before the speakers or the hardware insider the sub for purposes of bass management.

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

I think you already got it right. From what you describe I see no logical way how this should work.
Where should the signal come from? Each signal for the satellites must be routed to a software or hardware crossover and from there to the sub, no matter if analogue or aes67.
I am sure you also find these answers also in the relevant Neumann manuals.

23 (edited by ragemanners 2024-09-12 21:10:42)

Re: Bass Management? Total Mix as an (Atmos) Monitor Controller

i’ve been thinking the same about total mix replacing pricey monitor controllers. it’s close, but yeah, missing proper bass management is a bit of a pain on the job, especially for 7.1.4 setups. seems like with some smart routing, you can work around most of it though!