Topic: RayDAT Sync problems

Hi,
I'm new here. I didn't find any answer to my problem, so I hope someone can help me:

Via ebay I bought a RayDAT as replacement for a Hammerfall Digi9636 which I've used with a Yamaha 01v mixer for years.
With the new card as master and the mixer as slave via ADAT (both directions) the Hammerfall settings window shows Sync/Lock changing and when sending a signal from the mixer to the card I can hear it the same time.

When setting the mixer as master and the card as slave everything works.

Back to the setting "RayDAT as master". The sync errors are dependent on the signal which is sent (e.g. using dither on ADAT or not changes a lot). So it looks like a problem of jitter. Since the mixer worked for years with the Digi9636 and also with a temporarily used miniDSP USB/ADAT converter I'm wondering if there's something wrong with the RayDAT. However the RayDAT works with the miniDSP as ADAT slave.
Any ideas?

Gunni

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

Can you take a screenshot of the HDSP Settings app and upload to a dropbox or something to share here? Most likely you have a wrong setting somewhere.

No broken ADAT "doors" on the RayDAT card?

Regards,
Jeff Petersen
Synthax Inc.

3

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

That is most probably a problem of the TOSLINK inputs on that RayDAT card, which need to be exchanged with more compatible ones.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

@ Jeff: I will do this evening. However since the card is master there's not that much freedom degree.

@MC: This sounds like a known issue. Is there a specific series of cards affected or a general problem maybe in combination with some devices?
As you can imagine I not simply tested one input but all. And I can hear slightly differences in the amount of sync losses.

ADAT 4 is worse, ADAT 1 is best.

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

I understand you need to get to the bottom of this but, If it works with the card as slave, that would be the preferred way to work anyway. It is best to have the device with the AD/DA as master if possible.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

vinark wrote:

I understand you need to get to the bottom of this but, If it works with the card as slave, that would be the preferred way to work anyway. It is best to have the device with the AD/DA as master if possible.

Oh really ? This is new to me. I always thought that the device with the better clock is preferred to be taken as master.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

Unfortunately not. This has been tested and slaving to an external clock is most of the time worse then internal and equal at best. This myth (to use a better external clock) came in to being because of the terrible clock in the first protools interface. That one did improve.
So advice is to be on the clock of the DA if recording and of the DA when mixing or mastering (if they are separate of course)
http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/ … ster-clock

Interesting is that, if you connect a very good (better then internal) external clock and you hear a difference you might automagically think it must be an improvement, cause it is a better clock. You might be hearing a little more distortion though.
Of course when you do need a master clock distribution system, it better be as good as possible.
Ramses, I am really interested in what you think after reading the article....

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

8 (edited by ramses 2017-02-09 12:46:20)

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

EDITED in different paragraphs, pls reread:

Vinark, many thanks for the very interesting article.

I am a little short on time and read only up to the part where they start comparing different master clocks. I think the relevant information for this thread was in the 1st half anyway.

According to the article it would be beneficial to use the Yamaha mixer as clock master, as it has the ADDA converter, not the RayDAT which works only digitally.

An alternative could be to use Word Clock between Yamaha and RayDAT using the word clock module for RayDAT. But from past forum articles from RME and reading their handbook(s) I have a certain feeling / understanding that RME recommends to use WC only in cases where you should or even need to use it (big stuido infrastructure with multiple ADDA's and video recording/editing as pointed out in the SOS article).

If I didn't understand wrong, steadyclock via i.e. ADAT could be better than using WC as the frequency is higher and you do not work with a high multiplier like with a WC. But I am not 100% sure on this tbh and eventually would need to re-read RME handbook.

I think the clocking information for the pure digital communication via ADAT should be fine enough in any case. Preferrably with clock coming from the device which has A/D and/or D/A converters build in.

BTW .. the SOS article also points out, that the requirements for the digital transfer are not so "strict" compared to ADDA conversion. So RMEs steadyclock mechanism via ADAT should be well enough in any case.

So to sum up it appears to me that:
1. the best solution for him is to use the Yamaha as clock source via ADAT under the assumption, that it has a good built-in clock.
2. if this shouldn't work well, one could use RayDAT as master using the steadyclock information sent through ADAT
3. next option to use WC, eventually the RME clock as master, as I would think that the RME clock in a separate unit might be better than in a complex compact mixer, where the quality of such modules / circuits could be a matter of a price compromise.

To know it exactly I fear you need to measure, this means efforts and devices which a normal user usually not has.
I would say, if it works like we think it should work well and if this does not hurt, continue to use it the way it works wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

I can follow your point of view. Even clocking from an exernal device (using an SPDIF source without clock input) does not consequently fix the problem. In that case neither RayDAT nor mixer are master. Since RayDAT is the destination for SPDIF, SPDIF must be master followed by the RayDAT and the mixer has to follow RayDAT.

In that case the same problem occurs with respect to sync errors.

For me now there's the one question: Do I have a problem with the RayDAT or with the mixer?
Since the mixer works in combination with the older DIGI9636 and the miniDSP (ADAT to USB converter) there must be a worst performance with the RayDAT in comparison. Since the RayDAT works with miniDSP too I cannot see a total failure of the RayDAT.

I'm totally missing any information about locking behaviour of ADAT in general and of the RayDAT in special.

Since I am a hardware engineer I have the possibility to measure the signals at the TOSLINK adapters directly using a scope - and I did it yesterday. And yes I can see some jitter in all cases. Trying to find the problem that way means to dive deeply into basics and into functionality of the card.

I was wondering one specific behaviour of the miniDSP when using as slave. One can clearly see the floating signals when clock is unlocked. After changing the clock source of the miniDSP from internal to ADAT the signal locks - but (in opposite to the mixer behaviour which locks to the the same relative position every time) the position of the sync part of the frame locks nearly free at any position. I want to say:

The phase relationship inside the audio sample is stable but undefined. And it works.

That tells me the RayDAT must follow EVERY ADTAT input separately and syncs to it. In consequence Jitter measuring with respect to the master output doesn't tell much since I don't see the (FPGA-) internal signal locked to the input. That means there are 4 PLL's locking ( to the phase) independently.
Or am I wrong?

10 (edited by ramses 2017-02-09 12:53:55)

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

I would open a support case with RME support.

But it would be very nice if RME could follow up on this here in the forum.

I also would like to learn, what goes right or wrong in your environment and whats best practise.

Times are gone where I thought that WC is the best in any way. I had to learn from this RME forum that it also depends on the quality of the WC chip on each particular device and so on and so on. Many things to consider it seems, especially after reading the SOS article as suggested by Vinark.

I am not technician enough in this area, so I stick out of this now and wait if RME could kindly involve
to looks whether there is an issue with your HW and maybe also whats the best solution in your case.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

11 (edited by vinark 2017-02-09 13:07:57)

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

@Ramses:  If I didn't understand wrong, steadyclock via i.e. ADAT could be better than using WC as the frequency is higher and you do not work with a high multiplier like with a WC. But I am not 100% sure on this tbh and eventually would need to re-read RME handbook.
Yes that is right! Read the same thing. And agreed only measuring on site (with your equipment and cables) will give a 100% answer. But logic dictates if a device has a very very good PLL to clock externally it will also have a good internal clock (both are expensive, and it is more logical to skimp on the PLL then on the internal clock ;-) )

@Gunni, can you use the yamaha as master in your setup and does that work? If yes at least for now you have a working solution, which according to the SOS testing is the best anyway!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

When using the yamaha as master it works and with respect to my measurements the signal quality was the best at all.

One drawback is the SPDIF source. So far I've connected the SPDIF input of the Yamaha with the mainboard sound for normal audio PC use. Furthermore the onboard Realtek chip can loop through the (internal) SPDIF input of the board to its output.

So I'm thinking about connecting the external SPDIF to the RayDAT and connecting the electrical signal the mainboard input too. I.e. the Yamaha could lock to the external SPDF via mainboard (or alternatively to the onboard audio) and the RayDAT could lock to the Yamaha (or theoretically to SPDIF directly).

Of course that's very unusual.

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

Yes! What do you use the onboard audio for? If it is just web playback etc I would just connect the analogue out of the onboard to your mixer and keep the digital clean. Even if it is a little noisy it is easy to mute when not in use. But your spdif idea is valid. It depends on the quality of the PLL of the yamaha if it will degrade sound quality due to jitter. If the switch is easily accessible on the yamaha to switch from spdif ext to internal you could also only switch to spdif when in use.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

I returned the (second-hand) RayDAT back since I was unsure wether the card was defective or had the TOSLINK inputs to be changed.
Hoping a new card will work better I bought a new one. And here's the result:

Configuration: RayDAT = master

Using ADAT1: sync seems to be stable when transmitting test signal from mixer via PC back to mixer
.
.
using ADAT4: 1 sync error detected over several minutes using the same test signal.

The card was shipped with FW version 13. I couldn't detect any differences after updating to 14.

Using ADAT1 I started playing an external synth (signal passed through the mixer to the PC and back to the mixer).
And sh...., several sync errors occured (depending on signal).

I.e.: The new card has less sync error problems but the problem still persists.

Using the mixer as master again everything works.

The technical data of the card promises state of the art jitter reduction.

So this is my question to the engineers: Why is a Hammerfall DIGI9636 or a miniDSP USB/ADAT adapter working without any problems and the RayDAT not?

I feel that the RayDAT doesn't provide any jitter reduction at the inputs when working as master but only when working as slave.

15

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

For extreme cases like yours it is possible to exchange the optical inputs with special ones that will sync to the multisource Yamaha signal error free. But as I mentioned that needs to exchange those, means either ordering a special version of the card or sending yours in for modification. Please contact support if you want to go this route.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

Since this is a new card compared to the roughly 8 years old card the problem you mentioned still persists?

17

Re: RayDAT Sync problems

As you can see in this forum - not at all. I don't know why you have that problem now, but we will check if we have that card.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME