Topic: First time Rme user

Hi everyone.
My gig'in days are over, and I am just recording at home. I have an axe fx 2 xl but I really dont need the nice bells and wistles, So I want to simplefy my setup, and just play with plugins (neural dsp) I was offered a trade for a Fireface Ufx and a little cash. Now the Axe fx is discontinued as is the Ufx. But for playing in realtime with these plugins would the Ufx not be an advantage regarding latency? (I'm using an Avid mbox pro atm) I cannot afford Thunderbolt, and I think Usb is more cross-platform supported, and Rme is the only company who seems to make steady and reliable drivers (google). I really would like a rackmountable interface, so I'm not looking into the smaller desktop interfaces (stupid I know). It seems that the Ufx is still supported, but will it be kind of a future proof choice? I am struggeling with myself here smile ... any advise/inputs are appreciated.
.. mads

Imac 27 2015 24 gb ram
Mac OsX 11.2.2
Rme Ufx
Studio One 5.1.2 Professional

2 (edited by ramses 2020-06-14 11:27:08)

Re: First time Rme user

Welcome Madselhoff.

Every RME interface will do latency wise, you only need to look what setup brings most advantages to you.

With ASIO buffersizes up to 128 @44.1/48 (max 256) you are on the safe side to stay under 10ms RTL which is needed to not slow down when playing, assumed you would use also virtual amps (VSTi) in your DAW, which I sometimes do for testing (in my case products from Kuassa). Even with an ASIO buffersize of 256 it was still possible with the UFX+ to play without slow down, but this was already at the edge whats doable, you feel more comfortably with a setting of 128.

But please note, you only have to take care of RTL in this case, because you play through an virtual amp (VSTi) which runs inside of the DAW on your PC .. this is an "extreme case" for RTL which might not even be applicable for your setup. Also not for my usual setup, I use amp VSTi only for such tests ...

If you get only a backing track from PC and mix the backing track coming from DAW and Mic input from a real guitar amp to your phones, then latency is not an issue for you. You hear the backing track in your phones and the amp sound coming from a Mic in near realtime as this is being mixed digitally inside of your recording interface. What I want to say here .. if you talk about latencies, alway think twice and think about the signal flow in your particular use case.

At the end .. RME drivers are so nicely optimized that you get best results in terms of low RTL no matter whether using PCIe, USB or thunderbolt. The differences are only very small (subtle).

In this blog from me about the UFX+ / UFX II you will find an excel screenshot which shows you, that every RME solution that I had up to now had excellent RTL times (round trip latency for audio to be send through USB/TB/PC to the PC/Application and back: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … 8-RME-UFX/
Here the picture:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/2343-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-v2-jpg/

In another blog article I put together different RME solutions for USB/TB recording interfaces and an Excel which contains all relevant data from webpage, manual and also information gathered from this forum. This helps you to make a good selection together with the information found on the web.
You might also consider to use the old Produkt pages from web, because there you find the more technical information in the foreground. But the newest devices of course won't be in on the so called "archive" and don't expect any updates or bugfixes there.
The blog article: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … B-MADIfac/
The Excel: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.ph … 0-04-xlsx/
RME product pages: https://www.rme-audio.de/index.php
RME archive old webserver / product pages: https://archiv.rme-audio.de/

For most flexibility and options / features I can only recommend to you to get the UFX+.
Compared to the UFX II it offers big additional features for only a few "dollars" more.

Here is how I use it for recording in my Home Studio, gives you maybe some nice ideas for additional use cases in your studio, sound demos included, before and today with RME and this setup where I use the UFX+ with DURec more and more as a tape deck before actually working in the DAW: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … -DURec-DE/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: First time Rme user

Thank you!
Def. something to look into. I dont have the option to get a ufx II or + as the trade offer is with the ufx. But I'm really not concerned about the quality of the ufx, only support-wise in the future smile ..
I could of course just sell the axe fx and get like a brand new presonus quantum... but everytime I read about Rme stability, quality and reliability is mentioned every time, and that is way more important to me than something being brand new. My only real concern is about future driver support. But I read that Rme is very true to their products and users... I really just need someone to say "Go for it.. it's worth it" smile

Imac 27 2015 24 gb ram
Mac OsX 11.2.2
Rme Ufx
Studio One 5.1.2 Professional

Re: First time Rme user

OK: go for it, its definitively worth it without any doubt ! wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

5 (edited by madselhoff 2020-06-14 11:50:18)

Re: First time Rme user

Okay I'll do it then smile
Thank you Ramses.
I guess I'll be a "new" Rme user from tomorrow and hopefully many years forward

Imac 27 2015 24 gb ram
Mac OsX 11.2.2
Rme Ufx
Studio One 5.1.2 Professional

6 (edited by mkoek7 2020-06-14 12:15:57)

Re: First time Rme user

First, off: Ramses, you are an incredible source of information. I am considering to buy a UFX II for my home studio and read many of your posts. They really helped me to understand the potential of TotalMix FX. I would like to have all my pc's and external audio routed through it and therefore do all monitoring NOT inside Cubase 10.5, but via TMF.

I do still have a couple of questions:

1) When recording a vocal in Cubase, I know I can ensure latency free monitoring by balancing - inside TMF - for my headphone submix - the hardware IN channel with Cubase's software playback channel. However, since the vocal is recorded in Cubase, how do I ensure that I do not hear myself twice (via the HW input AND the SW playback channel)??

2) When I, like you wrote above, want to record a synth or guitar through a VST-effect in Cubase and want to hear the effect while recording, how do I configure things in TMF?

3) As I often switch between the recording modes decribed in 1 and 2 and sometimes use them at the same time (singing while playing heavily effected synth or guitar): how do I set things up in TMF so that I don't have to open it all the time when in Cubase, but just can copy and arm tracks, staying in the 'flow'?

These are important questions for me, as I now use a Steinberg MR816csx with which I can use mode 1 and 2 flawlessly, within Cubase. I am however experiencing severe driver issues with it, lately, so I am thinking to add the UFX II as the new main card and connect the Steinberg via ADAT. That gives me 20 ins and 20 ins outs, so I can have all my outboard gear (synths, drum machines, tape deck, cd player. Maschine etc) be connected all the time, and have all the routing capabilities of TMF (also with audio from youtube, Soundcloud etc). Therefore, I would not want to use the UFX II in 'daw mode' or want to go the Presonus Quantum route (both options, I reckon, will make mode 1 and 2 above easy, since then everything happens inside Cubase again), because with either of these routes I will lose all the beautiful routing possibilities that attract me to the RME!

Hope you can help me even further than you already did. Kind regards,
Martijn

7 (edited by ramses 2020-06-14 14:02:20)

Re: First time Rme user

Hi and thanks for the flowers mkoek7.

to 1) This could be achieved by adding more output channels to Cubase in the Studio settings (F4) and then to use "Sends" to send single channels or subgroups to the one or other just added output as you want to have it structured according to your actual demand.

Remember, the genious TM FX design: the output channels in the DAW/Application (here Cubase) correspond to the SW playback channels in TM FX in the middle row.

By this "additional Layer" you have now the full freedom to perform the final routing from SW Playback Channels (middle row) to the real HW ouputs of your recording interface (bottom row). Easiest to be performed in the so called "submix mode" of TM FX.

Simply select the submix for the Phones Channel in the bottom row by clicking to the channel, you will notice that it becomes highlighed by that and all channels in top and middle row get the name of the submix at the bottom of each fader.
Clear, because you see now the submix for this phones channel.

Well and now simply raise the fader of HW Inputs and SW playback channels as you need:
- Vocals from the HW inputs (top row) for near-realtime performance when your vocalist sings in
- Backing tracks/selected tracks from the DAW by raising the faders of the approriate SW playback channels (middle row)
  here you have the usual latency because audio needs to be transported over USB/TB ...

You can surely create a template in Cubase if you need this more often and prepare there for everything.
And this particular routing you can also prepare and save in a TM FX snapshot, so that it is easily recallable by a mouse click.

See this screenshot to get an idea how it could look like in the application:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yx692sem6o6laq6/2020-06-14%2014_19_00-Cubase%20Sends%20to%20distribute%20Audio%20for%20TM%20FX%20routing.jpg?dl=1

to 2) by sending the audio e.g. to a dedicated audio channel like in the example above. Then you see the signal arriving in TM FX in the middle Row under SW Playback channels and can then perform the final routing to phones or monitors.

to 3) by thinking about one generic concept that covers all and then simply raise the faders as required or
by saving it to different snapshots buttons (the 8 to the right) and saving and recalling as required or maybe even a combination of these two methods.

I personally identified / categorized these different audio streams on my PC
- from Windows and Applications, Windows default sound device -> AN 1/2 (RME WDM driver)
- from MusicBee/Foobar2000 audio players for listening to lossless music from my PC -> AN 3/4 (RME ASIO driver)
- from Games -> AN 5/6 (RME WDM driver)
and now add
- From DAW the usual stereo sum for the whole project or for mastering -> AN7/8
- From DAW Backing Track -> AN9/10
- From DAW VSTi (virtual amp) -> AN 11/12
- From DAW .. however you need this structured ...

Of couse you can also use other unused digital channels (ADAT, MADI) to split up audio in the middle row for getting the required amount of SW playback channels for the middle row to prepare for the final routing to the final HW outputs on your device (bottom row).

Audio will then arrive in TM FX in the middle row (not yet at the real HW output).
And now - after having it sorted nicely in this way - you can finally decide how the final routing shall be to the real HW outputs (aka "submixes") of your recording interface (to monitors, phones).

I think such a generic simple and straight forward structure will give you a basement to store a couple of often used routings to maybe up to 8 different snapshot positions at the right side of the TM FX window.

As I wrote already in threads ago .. for me it was already wonderful to be able to
- Listen to a Youtube video, a lets play that explained a few things about the game, that I was just playing
- Listen also to the game sound, but here not so much was required, so turn volume down to be able to hear Youtube
- Then background music from my player at a decent level to still be able to hear 1+2

Exactly this is where TM FX shines .. it gives you so much flexibility to use your gear and PC in the best possible way.
And I do not see any other company who can compete with this in any way ...
This is a genious HW / Driver / Application design from people, who know what they are doing and are musicians like us who understand perfectly our demands.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: First time Rme user

Well Ramses, flowers are thoroughly deserved! Thank you for the very informative post, picture included!
Just one more question:
When I monitor incoming vocals only through the in-channel (disabling the send in TMF middle row) while playing and recording a VST piano (which therefore has to go through the DAW) won't there be timing issues after recording? I mean: while I am singing and playing everything sounds good, but in listening back to the recording the vocal might be slighly behind the beat, as I have unconsiously adjusted to the input latency while singing. Or won't that be a problem with latencies below 9ms?

The one thing I fear now is that in combining near zero latency monitoring the inputs on the UFX II with monitoring a VST instrument via the daw playback channel, things get out of sync and I still might be better of in keeping all monitoring inside the daw...

9 (edited by ramses 2020-06-14 16:20:14)

Re: First time Rme user

EDIT1: pls re-read:

Good question, if I am not fully mistaken it can be in this case that the ASIO driver - knowing input and output latency from the ASIO driver - performs latency compensation.

There is a big difference in this particular use case vs playing a VSTi.

If a vocalist sings to the backing track coming from SW playback channel then he can simply sing to it and it becomes recorded.

If you plug your guitar to an INSTR input of the recording device, then the audio signal from guitar needs to be send after A/D conversion through USB. There it will be send through an insert, the VSTi for the guitar amp.
The amp sound inside of the VSTi needs to be processed by the CPU of your computer.
The final sound needs to be send back through USB, D/A conversion and then after RTL and time to compute the sound in the VSTi your ears hear now what your fingers played on the guitar.

This decoupling between action with your fingers and finally hearing the tone is not the case for somebody like a vocalist who hears the backing track via phones and immidiately sings in that rhythm and timiing.

IMHO there is either a full compensation in the DAW taking place as times for input and output latency are known.
Or at least a little ASIO buffer size latency in the area of A/D conversion time (much less) and ASIO driver input latency across USB.

Maybe RME or somebody else can kindly confirm / comment to this as I am not 100% sure in this case, many thanks.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: First time Rme user

Just to let you know: I just ordered an UFX II. Should be arriving within two days. Excited!

Re: First time Rme user

Enjoy !

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

12 (edited by madselhoff 2020-06-17 07:47:56)

Re: First time Rme user

I traded the axe fx 2 xl for the Ufx and got some money too.. I have it up and running, and everything is working just perfect! .. I have been looking on Rme interfaces for some years now...should have done this years ago smile .. It just calms me down knowing there is an Rme interface in the rack and i can rely on it!!!
Thank you Ramses for "pushing" me smile

Imac 27 2015 24 gb ram
Mac OsX 11.2.2
Rme Ufx
Studio One 5.1.2 Professional

Re: First time Rme user

Great news, have fun !

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: First time Rme user

Ramses!

You wrote

"I personally identified / categorized these different audio streams on my PC
- from Windows and Applications, Windows default sound device -> AN 1/2 (RME WDM driver)
- from MusicBee/Foobar2000 audio players for listening to lossless music from my PC -> AN 3/4 (RME ASIO driver)"

I also use FOOBAR to play back my insane music collection which I store on a homebrew NAS.  When you say here you are using RME ASIO DRIVER with Foobar2000, how are you doing that?  My foobar now is set to "Speakers (RME Fireface 400)"  How do you unleash the ASIO option?

Of note, in my fireface settings, i have WDM devices set to just 1.

15 (edited by ramses 2020-06-17 20:13:31)

Re: First time Rme user

I do not remember, whether Foobar had directly an ASIO driver loaded, maybe you need to google for that part ...

But then simply create a custom channel mapping
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kg2azikggat7goo/2020-06-17%2020_58_30-foobar2000%20v1.5.4.jpg?dl=1

Once defined you can use it in foobar:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xzga8kwpmmcdnkv/2020-06-17%2020_59_04-Preferences_%20Output.jpg?dl=1


I packed all a bit together .. hope u can c:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bxtsfs85e2ka6yj/2020-06-17%2021_06_24-TMFX-WinSound-WDMsettings.jpg?dl=1

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: First time Rme user

ahh ok. im in my foo now and do not have the OUTPUT / ASIO option.  i will goog for an add-in.

Re: First time Rme user

GOT IT!!  SWeeeeeeeeT!!

Re: First time Rme user

;-)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: First time Rme user

Curious now if using ASIO for playback vs the crappy WDM will prevent the sometimes audio drops i will get if I am moving BIG files to/fro the NAS.  That would be cool if it eliminated that!

thanks again, ramses.