Topic: Is is bad to record 4+ setting on rear Analog Input for vocal?

So my vocal chain is preamplified by Grace Design 101, then Avalon 747 Compressor and I connected its output TRS into the rear analog input of my UFX.
But I did not select 'Lo Gain' setting (actually I was unware of the difference between +4dB, +10dB and lo gain...) and I am just worried that if I should re-record my vocal with 'Lo Gain' all over again for better...
It was set '+4dB' before...



Is it wrong and bad for later mixing and mastering...? (in relation to 'headroom' issue...)


2nd question:
When do we use:
+4
+10
Lo Gain...?


thanks in advance.

2 (edited by ramses 2020-08-16 12:56:28)

Re: Is is bad to record 4+ setting on rear Analog Input for vocal?

Its being used dependend on how "hot" the input signal is with the purpose
- to prevent overloading inputs
- to set the input sensitivity of the converter to be able to operate in an optimal work range according to the strength of the input signal

See KaiS's last recent contributions to this topic in the "ADI-2 Pro & ADI-2 DAC" subforum.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

3 (edited by fl 2020-08-16 14:59:41)

Re: Is is bad to record 4+ setting on rear Analog Input for vocal?

Use +4 dBu Input Gain setting when you are inputting a Professional Line Level source, such as the output of your Avalon compressor, or your Grace pre-amp. Typically, these connections use balanced lines, with XLR connectors or 1/4" Tip-Ring-Sleeve (TRS) plugs.

Use -10 dBV when you are inputting a Consumer Level source, such as a home cassette deck or CD player. Typically, these connections use unbalanced lines, using an RCA connector or a 1/4" Tip-Sleeve (TS) plug.

Use the Lo Gain input level, when you are using a source with a really hot signal that distorts the RME's input when it's set to +4 dBu.

Having these options on the RME, along with the Gain control on your pre-amp, and the Input and Output Level settings on your compressor, gives you the opportunity to really zero in on what the optimal settings are for your equipment, in terms of background electronic noise (hiss and hum) vs. overloading and clipping distorton.

For example, suppose you are inputting the signal from your pre-amp directly, without having the compressor in the chain. You will find that in order to get the same level to your DAW, you'll have to use a higher pre-amp gain setting when you have the RME set to Lo Gain, whereas you would use a lower pre-amp gain setting when the RME's input is set to +4 dBu.

You may find that using the "Hotter pre-amp signal with RME at Lo Gain" combination gives you a lower level of electronic noise (hiss and hum). Or, you may find that you get lower noise when you use the "Lower pre-amp/RME at +4 dBu" combo. Try it out for yourself and make your own decision. Then insert the compressor between the pre-amp and the RME. Now you have multiple level settings to juggle (pre-amp gain, compressor input, compressor output and RME Input Gain setting), and somewhere in there, you'll find a combination of level settings which give you the most satisfactory performance.

It's up to you: Maybe you hate any audible distortion, or maybe you like a little "fur" on things. Maybe you can't stand having background hiss, or maybe you like having a soft background "cushion" that gives an "airy" feeling. Maybe you like the hiss that your Grace pre-amp produces, and dislike the noise that the RME makes. Or maybe you prefer the opposite. It's your gear, your music and your taste preference for sound quality, and you can only determine what is best for you by testing things out yourself. It's why it's called audio Engineering.

Frank Lockwood
https://LockwoodARS.com
Fireface 800, Firmware 2.77
Drivers: Win10, 3.125; Mac, 3.36

4 (edited by nateandrews 2020-08-18 19:17:08)

Re: Is is bad to record 4+ setting on rear Analog Input for vocal?

This topic is very relevant to my interests and everything fl just said is totally spot on.

I have only just very recently on my fireface400 started to have the LINE IN setting as Lo Gain instead of the +4dBu I had always been at with my FOCUSRITE ISA ONE because it really puts out a HOT signal.  When I'm at LoGain and have the mic (acoustic guitar) set about right, I'm coming in at -12dbfs peak to -15dbfs peak which is a nice good level.  The +4dBu setting it's just a bit too hot and was -4dbfs -6dbfs in there.  As fl said, this is the balance between preamp and rme coming in.  Lower preamp signal, +4 on rme.  Higher preamp signal LoGain on the RME.  There is also no law or rule that says you cannot use the -10 signal on a "pro" piece of gear but generally that -10 level is for drum machines or similar.  For me, the LoGain works better than the +4dbU.

I am really trying to force myself to record at much LOWER LEVELS like -18dbfs to -12dbfs PEAK (not RMS).  This is for analog stuff of course going in.  For digital and VSTi stuff I use the output of the instrument itself to peak around those same levels on main stereo out of my daw.

I have been guilty of recording WAY TOO HOT and it's a hard habit to break..not seeing such fat waveforms in the project window it "feels" like it's too low but I know the headroom is needed and there is just absolutely zero reason at all to blast the hell out of the analog signal coming in trying to nail down fatty wave forms.  I used to track to the point of JUST BARELY not clipping and that is absolute worst possible thing to do... hard habit to break but I'm getting better!  You track and peak at freaking -1dbFS and as soon as you add a small bump of EQ you are clipping.  Stupid.  I was stupid.  smile

Re: Is is bad to record 4+ setting on rear Analog Input for vocal?

fl wrote:

Use +4 dBu Input Gain setting when you are inputting a Professional Line Level source, such as the output of your Avalon compressor, or your Grace pre-amp. Typically, these connections use balanced lines, with XLR connectors or 1/4" Tip-Ring-Sleeve (TRS) plugs.

Use -10 dBV when you are inputting a Consumer Level source, such as a home cassette deck or CD player. Typically, these connections use unbalanced lines, using an RCA connector or a 1/4" Tip-Sleeve (TS) plug.

Use the Lo Gain input level, when you are using a source with a really hot signal that distorts the RME's input when it's set to +4 dBu.

Having these options on the RME, along with the Gain control on your pre-amp, and the Input and Output Level settings on your compressor, gives you the opportunity to really zero in on what the optimal settings are for your equipment, in terms of background electronic noise (hiss and hum) vs. overloading and clipping distorton.

For example, suppose you are inputting the signal from your pre-amp directly, without having the compressor in the chain. You will find that in order to get the same level to your DAW, you'll have to use a higher pre-amp gain setting when you have the RME set to Lo Gain, whereas you would use a lower pre-amp gain setting when the RME's input is set to +4 dBu.

You may find that using the "Hotter pre-amp signal with RME at Lo Gain" combination gives you a lower level of electronic noise (hiss and hum). Or, you may find that you get lower noise when you use the "Lower pre-amp/RME at +4 dBu" combo. Try it out for yourself and make your own decision. Then insert the compressor between the pre-amp and the RME. Now you have multiple level settings to juggle (pre-amp gain, compressor input, compressor output and RME Input Gain setting), and somewhere in there, you'll find a combination of level settings which give you the most satisfactory performance.

It's up to you: Maybe you hate any audible distortion, or maybe you like a little "fur" on things. Maybe you can't stand having background hiss, or maybe you like having a soft background "cushion" that gives an "airy" feeling. Maybe you like the hiss that your Grace pre-amp produces, and dislike the noise that the RME makes. Or maybe you prefer the opposite. It's your gear, your music and your taste preference for sound quality, and you can only determine what is best for you by testing things out yourself. It's why it's called audio Engineering.

Wow.. thank you. Lesson learned! Now I totally get what you have said and yes, I will juggle around the input leveling myself and really enjoy using my UFX smile

6 (edited by fl 2020-08-17 16:01:54)

Re: Is is bad to record 4+ setting on rear Analog Input for vocal?

nateandrews wrote:

I was stupid.  smile

Not too stupid to learn, by appearances...

For what it's worth, I have a Fireface 800 which I use for location classical music recordings with a Millennia Media eight channel pre-amp. After experimenting, I found I got lower noise by using the Lo Gain setting and making the corresponding increase in the gain settings on the Millennia. A few years ago, I came across a proposal to make -20 dBFS the ideal target level for recording. This seemed like a good idea to me - it's four dB hotter than the North American Broadcast standard for Loudness, and 4 dB less than (what was then) the iTunes standard. In short, it seemed like a happy compromise. After several years of doing this, I have to say that my Fireface converters sound better - sweeter - to my ears, when they are not running with too hot an input level. I rarely if ever encounter clipping on the inputs to my gear. Recording with lower gain settings certainly allows me greater flexibility when it comes to mixing and mastering.

As for outputs, I monitor through a hi-fi amp, so I set the outputs to the -10 dBV setting, and that works well. For CD production, I've had no complaints from any clients when I supply them with mastered CDs and downloadable files which adhere to a -20 LU Loudness standard. Occasionally, I'll need to place a limiter on the output bus of my DAW, in order to maintain the -20 level, but I rarely if ever see gain reduction in excess of 2 or 3 dB with it, and it's usually for big orchestral accents with timpani, bass drum or snare drum, so nothing that lasts longer than an instant. Personally, I don't subscribe to the Loudness Wars idea of making each production louder than anything else - the sacrifice in transient sharpness, particularly for percussion is just not worth it to me just to have a louder playback level. I've got a volume knob, and I'm not afraid to use it! However, as always, YMMV.

Frank Lockwood
https://LockwoodARS.com
Fireface 800, Firmware 2.77
Drivers: Win10, 3.125; Mac, 3.36

Re: Is is bad to record 4+ setting on rear Analog Input for vocal?

It is/was a game changer when I started to work with much lower levels instead of blasting and always wanting to see fat waves and having all the VSTi's raging.  I pre-gain and trim to hover around -15dBFS to -18dfBFS PEAK on everything PRE FADER, PRE INSERT and it's just night and day. 

Very interesting observation on your recording of the orchestration. 

lightbox - I'm not sure he intended that the way you are interpreting it.  He clearly knows about dbFS vs. LUFS.

8

Re: Is is bad to record 4+ setting on rear Analog Input for vocal?

lightbox wrote:

There is no direct relation between peak levels and loudness. Loudness isn't even measured in dB, it's LU or LUFS. wink

Loudness measurement is, for the most part, relatively insensitive to brief peaks like percussive accents. If you have a piece of music which starts with a bang, and then is quite sedate until the finish where more loud accents occur, you may need to raise the overall gain in order to achieve the desired Loudness level. This can be sufficient for the peaks to clip, so a limiter is used to tame them, preventing overs and distortion. In situations like this, peak limiting and Loudness management are indeed related.

Frank Lockwood
https://LockwoodARS.com
Fireface 800, Firmware 2.77
Drivers: Win10, 3.125; Mac, 3.36