Topic: 12MIC Questions

Hello...I am interested in using the new 12MIC unit with my UFX+. I have a couple of questions regarding this integration:

1). Is MADI the best way to connect the two units?

2). Do you need to connect the Word Clock using the UFX+ as the master or does the Word Clock sync through via MADI?

3). When will the 12MIC manual be available for download.

thanks!

2 (edited by ramses 2020-02-05 07:57:42)

Re: 12MIC Questions

to 1) sure
Hint: does the UFX+ have AVB ? No, so MADI ;-)

to 2) sync through MADI.

Don't know what types of remote controlling features will be available for this unit.
The new units usually can be remote operated by webbrowser.
So maybe AUX device and MIDI remote are not available, lets see.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9734), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: 12MIC Questions

to 3) in March. You can subscribe to this topic, I'll send an update when it's up.

Re: 12MIC Questions

Thanks for the responses to my questions. From an AES reference book I have it states that the wordclock isn't necessarily needed when making a digital copy from one piece of equipment to another using protocols like AES, S/PDIF, MADI or TDIF2. The wordclock timing information is embedded in the digital stream. I think its only when you begin to daisy chain multiple devices together that a separate wordclock path should be considered.

I know the UFX+ didn't have AVB but was just concerned whether MADI or ADAT was the best route. After further reading, MADI seems the best option.

I will be looking forward to the manual in March.

Cheers!

5 (edited by vinark 2020-02-05 16:21:03)

Re: 12MIC Questions

I think its only when you begin to daisy chain multiple devices together that a separate wordclock path should be considered.

It is only needed when there is no embedded option available.
Some mic preamps have no digital audio in, only out, so if it needs to be a slave it needs WC.
I have six devices connected digitally. A hdsp9652 is the centre/master without a WC cable in sight. It did take some thinking and drawing a diagram...

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: 12MIC Questions

Some additional questions to the device:

1. is MIDI over MADI still supported by this device ?

2. Does it forward MIDI over MADI bits to devices behind on the MADI bus ?

So that it can be ..

3. .. integrated into TM FX as AUX device like the Octamic XTC to be able to save the most important settings in snapshots

4. .. remote controlled by the "MIDI Remote" application ?

5. If connected via MADI, does the 12Mic also perform Auto CA Latency compensation so that it can be mixed on the MADI bus well with i.e. Octamic XTC ?

6. Only curious, whether the ADAT outputs also support optical SPDIF protocol (for rare use cases to connect devices, which are not capable of ADAT).

Many thanks.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9734), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: 12MIC Questions

ramses wrote:

Some additional questions to the device:

1. is MIDI over MADI still supported by this device ?

2. Does it forward MIDI over MADI bits to devices behind on the MADI bus ?

So that it can be ..

3. .. integrated into TM FX as AUX device like the Octamic XTC to be able to save the most important settings in snapshots

4. .. remote controlled by the "MIDI Remote" application ?

5. If connected via MADI, does the 12Mic also perform Auto CA Latency compensation so that it can be mixed on the MADI bus well with i.e. Octamic XTC ?

6. Only curious, whether the ADAT outputs also support optical SPDIF protocol (for rare use cases to connect devices, which are not capable of ADAT).

Many thanks.

I'd be interested to know the answers as well, thanks!

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

Re: 12MIC Questions

1. is MIDI over MADI still supported by this device ?

Yes

2. Does it forward MIDI over MADI bits to devices behind on the MADI bus ?

It forwards MIDI SysEx messages (that are used for remote control over MIDI over MADI) from one selected port to one selected port, ie. from coax or optical to coax or optical.

3. .. integrated into TM FX as AUX device like the Octamic XTC to be able to save the most important settings in snapshots

We've got that on our list, however it is not implemented in TotalMix FX at this point.

4. .. remote controlled by the "MIDI Remote" application ?

No. The device has by far too many features that it could be controlled over MIDI. Except for the TotalMix functionality that you know from the XTC, we do not plan to implement other MIDI commands to control the unit.

5. If connected via MADI, does the 12Mic also perform Auto CA Latency compensation so that it can be mixed on the MADI bus well with i.e. Octamic XTC ?

We're looking into that, however in the meantime you could use AVB across an entire network of 12Mics to achieve sample accuracy. That goes so far that each 12Mic could have a (compensated) stack of XTCs, and they would all be sample aligned when received as streams at a Digiface AVB.

6. Only curious, whether the ADAT outputs also support optical SPDIF protocol (for rare use cases to connect devices, which are not capable of ADAT).

No.

Best regards,
Max

Re: 12MIC Questions

4. .. remote controlled by the "MIDI Remote" application ?

No. The device has by far too many features that it could be controlled over MIDI. Except for the TotalMix functionality that you know from the XTC, we do not plan to implement other MIDI commands to control the unit.


I can not find that that OPTION has arrived, yet,  inside Total Mix. I see only Octamic XTC.
So is there infact ANY possibility to remote control the PreAmp amount through MIDI over MADI? We have many RME Units and (like in 25 MADI capable 8ch units) and would like to update those which are reaching End of their life with the most modern units to lay the ground for IP based Audio in future. But MADI is our Infrastrukture now.

Re: 12MIC Questions

bisthore wrote:

We have many RME Units and (like in 25 MADI capable 8ch units) and would like to update those which are reaching End of their life with the most modern units to lay the ground for IP based Audio in future. But MADI is our Infrastrukture now.

Out of interest, how are you measuring the lifespan of your Madi units?

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

11 (edited by ramses 2021-01-04 16:47:12)

Re: 12MIC Questions

bisthore wrote:

4. .. remote controlled by the "MIDI Remote" application ?

No. The device has by far too many features that it could be controlled over MIDI. Except for the TotalMix functionality that you know from the XTC, we do not plan to implement other MIDI commands to control the unit.


I can not find that that OPTION has arrived, yet,  inside Total Mix. I see only Octamic XTC.
So is there infact ANY possibility to remote control the PreAmp amount through MIDI over MADI? We have many RME Units and (like in 25 MADI capable 8ch units) and would like to update those which are reaching End of their life with the most modern units to lay the ground for IP based Audio in future. But MADI is our Infrastrukture now.

Maybe you overlooked in forum..

RME plans to implement Auxdevice support for the 12Mic.

Like with the Octamic XTC the Auxdevice feature will give you remote control over (not all but) the most important parameters and to store/restore them in TM FX snapshots.

Has been mentioned already on forum and in my 12Mic review: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … XTC-DE-EN/

As Auxdevice and MIDI Remote can not run at the same time, Auxdevice should be the best solution.
The rest of the parameters you can remote control over Web even if your do not use the Network port via AVB.

And this is now an additional advantage to you, because Auxdevice and access via network can run at the same time and its very likely that you have at the location of the devices also a network port free.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9734), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: 12MIC Questions

mjfe87 wrote:
bisthore wrote:

We have many RME Units and (like in 25 MADI capable 8ch units) and would like to update those which are reaching End of their life with the most modern units to lay the ground for IP based Audio in future. But MADI is our Infrastrukture now.

Out of interest, how are you measuring the lifespan of your Madi units?


We have always been among the first to buy RMEs new devices, starting with the Octamic D in combination with the original DIGIFACE. I have worked with RME units while I was employed at BIS and we are still using them as independent production team. They all still sound great, but shortly after the first Octamic D got a problem with the converter units it was followed by others of the same generation. That was after years of heavy usage with shipping around the globe and sometimes working in too hot environments.
When a unit is 6-10 years old and starts to get problems you have to decide whether it is still worth repairing it. Recently we had our first problem with a Micstasy, 12 years old, I would tend to update with a new development, but the Micstasy still sounds great and you can still buy them, if you don't want to change the concept.

I have recommended the 12Mic and an AVB environment to a concert hall here in Sweden for a streaming and recording setup and I am impressed by how it works. It is quite intuitive, but as always one has to invest a bit of time to master it and there had to be made some hardware updates to the first units, which is normal with a new kind of device. But they really work very well over the existing network infrastructure in the house.

The problems with our Micstasy however now appears to be due to an internal cable that had come loose after 12 years on the road and just had to be re-plugged securely. It looks like it is working fine again. So I might not need a new machine, yet. Too bad :-)

I hope that sheds some light on my definition of "end of life", it is not any different from updating your car. At some point it is the only thing that makes sense. And I sometimes can't resist new audio technology.

Re: 12MIC Questions

ramses wrote:
bisthore wrote:

4. .. remote controlled by the "MIDI Remote" application ?

No. The device has by far too many features that it could be controlled over MIDI. Except for the TotalMix functionality that you know from the XTC, we do not plan to implement other MIDI commands to control the unit.


I can not find that that OPTION has arrived, yet,  inside Total Mix. I see only Octamic XTC.
So is there infact ANY possibility to remote control the PreAmp amount through MIDI over MADI? We have many RME Units and (like in 25 MADI capable 8ch units) and would like to update those which are reaching End of their life with the most modern units to lay the ground for IP based Audio in future. But MADI is our Infrastrukture now.

Maybe you overlooked in forum..

RME plans to implement Auxdevice support for the 12Mic.

Like with the Octamic XTC the Auxdevice feature will give you remote control over (not all but) the most important parameters and to store/restore them in TM FX snapshots.

Has been mentioned already on forum and in my 12Mic review: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … XTC-DE-EN/

As Auxdevice and MIDI Remote can not run at the same time, Auxdevice should be the best solution.
The rest of the parameters you can remote control over Web even if your do not use the Network port via AVB.

And this is now an additional advantage to you, because Auxdevice and access via network can run at the same time and its very likely that you have at the location of the devices also a network port free.

I have seen it in the FORUM, but I cannot find it in Totalmix. As I wrote in another comment just now, I have had the pleasure of setting up an AVB network including 3x 12-Mic  1x AVB-Tool and 2x DIGIFACE AVB. So I had access to the machines and of course our own MADIFACE XT etc. I can find a menu point in the 12Mic but no corresponding setting in Totalmix that would allow control of a 12-ch Device over MIDI.

So my Question, is it really coming?

14 (edited by ramses 2021-01-13 18:35:44)

Re: 12MIC Questions

I only know that it's planned, but I have no delivery date.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9734), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: 12MIC Questions

I also have a question, to 12mic.

about the steady clock, I bought a 12mic steady clock FS, and from the manual, I understood that it works when the 12mic is a slave.

If the 12mic is an internal sync, the steady clock is
not working?

Re: 12MIC Questions

There is really nothing to "steady clock" (there's no noun that can't be verbed) when the unit is running on internal clock...


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: 12MIC Questions

Thank you for your answers.

Kind Regards