• Registered: 2021-02-10
  • Posts: 10

Topic: Most Latency-Efficient Way to use 3 FF800s on a Mac

If I want to use 3 FF800s at once in my DAW software on Mac OSX, are my only two options:
1. Use an OSX aggregate device to gang the 3 FF800s together, and suffer the major latency hit (64 samples to 256 samples), or
2. Get a Digiface USB or similar, use it as the audio interface, and use the FF800s as A/D converters via ADAT into it
Any other options?
Context, and more info:
So I have been a long-time user of a FF800 (since around 2005 maybe) and am perfectly happy with it.
I recently purchased a couple more after reading that chaining them enables the operating system to "see" them as a single interface. I was really disappointed to discover this is only a feature on Windows, and that in Mac OSX you still need to create an aggregate audio device to use multiple FF800s in your DAW software at once, just like any other set of multiple audio interfaces. Bummer.
When I add all 3 to an aggregate device, my latency takes a major hit. Like, what was a rock solid 64 sample buffer size in Ableton Live now requires 256 for the very occasional stutter, which is not really useable.
So naturally, I'm eyeing the Digiface USB as the interface (I'd like to keep everything RME since I've had excellent driver experience with them ever since using a Hammerfall PCI card in the late 90s/early 2000s) and running the FF800s as A/D converters.
But i was hoping to have a 16 channel round-trip connection to a sampling computer via ADAT x2 and so I really ideally would need to have 5x ADAT I/O....bummer again since RME don't sell a version of the Digiface USB with more than 4 ADAT I/O. So, next option I've considered:
Maybe the solution is a network audio approach (maybe AVB or maybe Dante) but I'm still deep diving into researching these topics to see how it would or wouldn't be possible to use 3 FF800s on a network audio setup, and then use network audio to connect the sampling computer instead of ADAT. I see that MOTU makes a device (LP32) for under $1000 that includes 4x ADAT I/O and also has AVB, but I LOATHE the idea of going back to a motu interface after being spoiled on RME drivers for the last 20 years. It would be an immediate buy for me if RME made something like the LP32.
Am I missing anything?
Thank you all!

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,693

Re: Most Latency-Efficient Way to use 3 FF800s on a Mac

Hello,

you could get an ADI-648 format converter (ADAT-MADI) and a Madiface USB or Pro to connect to the Mac.
This would give you up to 8 ADAT I/O.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • Registered: 2021-02-10
  • Posts: 10

Re: Most Latency-Efficient Way to use 3 FF800s on a Mac

RME Support wrote:

Hello,

you could get an ADI-648 format converter (ADAT-MADI) and a Madiface USB or Pro to connect to the Mac.
This would give you up to 8 ADAT I/O.

RME

Thanks Daniel - firstly let me say that I am, and the audio community in general is, DEEPLY INDEBTED to the amazing work you guys and gals are doing at RME. In a world where companies barely want to support something for 3 years after release, RME have been delivering absolute excellent on the support front for the FF800 which has been out for what, 15 years??? Its just really incredible, and you have my indescribable thanks, and please pass my thanks along to your team as well.

On your advice -
Yes I looked at this option as well. That gets into the +$4k-ish range though, and so rather than the 648+Madi option, I'd probably just double down on two Digiface AVBs and a 1610 and then probably add a second down the road, and remove the FF800s entirely.
Am I correctly assuming that a digiface AVB could be used as the DAW interface and the 1610 could route all I/O to/from the AVB network? I presume thats one of the primary use cases for it.

  • Registered: 2018-12-21
  • Posts: 306

Re: Most Latency-Efficient Way to use 3 FF800s on a Mac

canopychasesounds wrote:

But i was hoping to have a 16 channel round-trip connection to a sampling computer via ADAT x2 and so I really ideally would need to have 5x ADAT I/O....bummer again since RME don't sell a version of the Digiface USB with more than 4 ADAT I/O. So, next option

Do you need all those at the same time?
Otherwise you could maybe just use use a cheap toslink switcher or splitter.
Or maybe connecting the ADAT 2 on one of the Fireface 800s and switching snapshots would already do the job.

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,869

Re: Most Latency-Efficient Way to use 3 FF800s on a Mac

It would also be helpful to know what needs to be connected, maybe there is another interface that does the trick at once
and as hselters suggested, maybe a TOSLINK switcher would be feasible to use one ADAT with up to four devices.
The Oehlbach Optosel 4:1 MKII works up to 192 kHz. With two of these switchers you could use 1 ADAT port for up to 4 devices.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2021-02-10
  • Posts: 10

Re: Most Latency-Efficient Way to use 3 FF800s on a Mac

hselters wrote:

Do you need all those at the same time?
Otherwise you could maybe just use use a cheap toslink switcher or splitter.
Or maybe connecting the ADAT 2 on one of the Fireface 800s and switching snapshots would already do the job.

Yeah ideally I would have them active at the same time. Its a second computer I use to host power-hungry VST plugins I use alot like Omnisphere and CS-80V, and I like just keeping the 8 patches I'm using for a composition loaded across 8 stereo tracks and live monitored on the main DAW computer. Its not *essential* but thats one of the conveniences I was looking for in having 3 FF800s.

ramses wrote:

It would also be helpful to know what needs to be connected, maybe there is another interface that does the trick at once
and as hselters suggested, maybe a TOSLINK switcher would be feasible to use one ADAT with up to four devices.
The Oehlbach Optosel 4:1 MKII works up to 192 kHz. With two of these switchers you could use 1 ADAT port for up to 4 devices.

A switcher is a good idea, but I'd prefer to have all I/O active at once.
I/O requirements (or desires I suppose...technically none of this is "required"):

Inputs:
8x analog inputs from eurorack modular synth setup
8x analog inputs from other external synths
4x analog inputs from guitar DI and pedal board
2x analog inputs from guitar amp load box (UA Ox Box)
2x analog inputs from external effects unit
SPDIF (coax) input from amp modeler
16x ADAT inputs from 2nd VST host computer

Outputs:
4x analog outputs to guitar Xamps and pedal board
2x analog outputs to external effects unit
SPDIF (coax) output to amp modeler
SPDIF (coax) output to main monitor speaker DA converter (D-Box)
8x ADAT output to eurorack ADAT to CV/Audio converter module

So obviously heavier on the inputs than the outputs. With a Digiface USB as the audio interface and each FF connected via 1x ADAT I/O and the second computer connected via 1x ADAT I/O, I'd be able to get everything routed except I'd lose the SPDIF in from Amp Modeler (which I don't really use much anymore now that I have the Ox Box and can route DAW tracks through my actual guitar pedals and real amp setup) and I'd lose the 9-16 tracks from the sampling computer. So neither of those are deal breakers but in an ideal world, I'd have something like the Digiface USB only with 8x ADAT I/O instead of 4 so I had room to grow.
But really, this is all gymnastics to accommodate the fact that I'm trying to gang a bunch of 15yo audio interfaces together because they are awesome, and can be had for cheap on the used market right now.
What I really should be doing is spending the $5-8k to actually get a 2020's-era solution that is built around something like the Digiface AVB and an M32ProAD (and then maybe like a 1610 for the outputs), or like a UFX+ and a ADI-648 connected via MADI to have the 8x ADAT I/O.

Long story short, it doesn't sound like there is an RME interface that works like the Digiface USB only with 8x ADAT I/O instead of 4...

  • Registered: 2021-02-10
  • Posts: 10

Re: Most Latency-Efficient Way to use 3 FF800s on a Mac

I also wonder if 2 Digiface USBs ganged into an Aggregate Device in Mac OSX would be significantly better latency than 3 FF800s ganged into and Aggregate Device. If anyone has info/opinion on this that would be useful info for me.

8 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-02-12 19:43:27)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,869

Re: Most Latency-Efficient Way to use 3 FF800s on a Mac

I don't know how it is with Apple and aggregate device. But wouldn't you have the same limitation not being able to route between 2-3 different TM FX instances?

Or do you want to route everything in the DAW?

Do you have a Mac with Thunderbolt ? Then you could get a PCIe extension cabinet through thunderbolt and use e.g. such a setup:

HDSPe MADI FX           https://www.thomann.de/de/rme_hdspe_madi_fx.htm           €1489
RME ADI-648               https://www.thomann.de/de/rme_adi648_op … andler.htm    €2499
Ferrofish A32               https://www.thomann.de/de/ferrofish_a32 … verter.htm        €1999

If you want to avoid the cost for patch bay you could get instead of the Ferro A32
2x Ferrofish Pulse 16 MX https://www.thomann.de/de/ferrofish_pulse16_mx.htm €1111 with TRS plugs at the back

Option 1: you can add an ARC USB
Option 2: at a later point of time you can expand this through the AES port of the HDSPe MADI FX even with an ADI-2 Pro FS R BE for connecting monitors and phones.

With this solution you have some nice benefits:
1. this card has an optimizing driver, that only allocates computer resources for each group of 8ch. Saves performance.
2. you can route in one TM FX instance and input to any output
3. the only RME PCIe card with FX on board
4. you have still 1 MADI channel with 64 channels free
5. you can get an optional MADI dauther card to have the 3rd MADI channel as optical connection as well (instead of coax)
6. you have already an analog port on the PCIe card for quickly connecting phones
7. you also have AES and MIDI I/O through break-out cable

Sorry, over €4k but possibly the best solution for such a setup.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2021-02-10
  • Posts: 10

Re: Most Latency-Efficient Way to use 3 FF800s on a Mac

ramses wrote:

HDSPe MADI FX           https://www.thomann.de/de/rme_hdspe_madi_fx.htm           €1489
RME ADI-648               https://www.thomann.de/de/rme_adi648_op … andler.htm    €2499
Ferrofish A32               https://www.thomann.de/de/ferrofish_a32 … verter.htm        €1999
.....
Sorry, over €4k but possibly the best solution for such a setup.

Thanks for the advice Ramses! Yeah, that's a pretty good solution in fact, going with a PCIe expansion chassis and the HDSPE MADI card. For now, I'll probably go with a Digiface USB and wring another couple years out of these FF800s.
Thank you for the advice!