• Registered: 2019-04-12
  • Posts: 35

Topic: 12mic MADI questions

Hi all,

I've been looking at the 12mic, and had a few questions.. I've read a bunch of posts about it already but couldn't find these topics, so apologies if they're already covered.

I want an all-in-one system - great for recording a drum kit with external pre's, great for travelling to record a singer songwriter, great for expanding to record an orchestra. So, wanting to stay with RME, my best bet seems to be a Fireface UFX+..

But in order to use this with 3 or 4 12mic's (for orchestral recording), I surely have to use MADI? (Unless I use both the Fireface and an RME AVB box, and a switch? - sounds more complicated to me...)

So if I were to use the above combination (Fireface UFX+, connected to the 12mic via MADI) how can I remotely control the mic pre's? I read in the user manual that it supports midi over madi, but how is this implemented?

Also, can I route audio from my DAW down to the 12mic, and output it from the headphone/line out jack on the front panel? And is this also possible for the ADAT outputs? (or are these mic pre direct outs only?).

Finally - not knowing much about MADI - do you simply daisy-chain MADI devices together? If so, how are they identified?

Thanks,

R

  • tdc
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  • Registered: 2017-11-04
  • Posts: 79

Re: 12mic MADI questions

Camilo1 wrote:

I want an all-in-one system - great for recording a drum kit with external pre's, great for travelling to record a singer songwriter, great for expanding to record an orchestra. So, wanting to stay with RME, my best bet seems to be a Fireface UFX+..

Hi Camilo1,

I would tend to agree that any interface that works via USB is going to be the most enjoyable experience - the RME interfaces are real plug-and-play that are highly reliable. The UFX+ is a very capable unit, and for live recording it has the DUREC USB recording system built in so you can be sure to never miss a take due to a computer failure or forgetting to press record.

Camilo1 wrote:

But in order to use this with 3 or 4 12mic's (for orchestral recording), I surely have to use MADI? (Unless I use both the Fireface and an RME AVB box, and a switch? - sounds more complicated to me...)

If you had the 12Mic's in a rack side of stage, and MADI cable runs were local it would be the simplest as you could then add those to your UFX+. No need for an AVB network unless you wanted a very long cable runs, or 12Mic units out on stage at various locations.

Camilo1 wrote:

So if I were to use the above combination (Fireface UFX+, connected to the 12mic via MADI) how can I remotely control the mic pre's? I read in the user manual that it supports midi over madi, but how is this implemented?

This is an important question. I personally have not tried this as yet, but I have been told that MIDI over MADI is indeed functional with the 12Mics. One of the RME folks could explain this a little further.

Camilo1 wrote:

Also, can I route audio from my DAW down to the 12mic, and output it from the headphone/line out jack on the front panel? And is this also possible for the ADAT outputs? (or are these mic pre direct outs only?).

The 12Mic's, like many of the RME units, have an insane amount of I/O and Routing capabilities. Unlike many other manufacturers equipment who have complicated routing caveats, the RME units are plain and simple. So, the 12Mic can receive 64ch of MADI Coaxial, 64ch of MADI Optical, 128ch of AVB audio and of course the 12ch of inbuilt mic pre's. Any of these inputs can be routed to any of the outputs, and that includes the local headphone outputs.

Its quite mind boggling to think that a 12 channel Mic Pre is also an 256 channel audio router that handles multiple audio protocols...

Camilo1 wrote:

Finally - not knowing much about MADI - do you simply daisy-chain MADI devices together? If so, how are they identified?

MADI is a straightforward 64 channel (at 1Fs) data stream, so you can think of it like AES but with more channels. So connecting 3 12Mics would be daisy-chained, and you would cascade the channels within that 64 channel stream.

12Mic-A [ch 1-12]
12Mic-B [ch 13-24]
etc.

Best of luck, Tony.

3 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-03-01 17:33:00)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
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  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,192

Re: 12mic MADI questions

Hi Camilo1,

I have also an UFX+ and via MADI XTC and 12Mic (in combination with two ADI-2 Pro FS R BE).

I am remote controlling
- XTC through TM FX (Auxdevice support, via MIDI over MADI)
- 12Mic over Gigabit network using a browser
Auxdevice support for 12Mic is promised but will need some more time according to RME.

Please read my review about the 12Mic, it contains some useful information (complete review in the PDF document in english and german): https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … XTC-DE-EN/

If you talk about orchester recordings, do you need recordings in double speed (88.2/96) ?
Then you would utilize the 64 MADI channels best with a combination of 2x 12Mic and one Octamic XTC.

If you want to stay with the 12Mic, which makes also sense, then you could also think about the HDSPe MADI FX card (PCIe based solution) which supports 3 MADI channels, with the optional daughter card even 3x optical MADI.
The nice thing about the HDSPe MADI FX card is:
- optimizing driver, allocates only driver/CPU resources for groups of 8 channels
- redundancy options
- the only PCIe card with FX chip
See my review here (complete review in the PDF document): https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … Pro-FS-BE/

Also nice is to use the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE for the TotalMix FX control room because of the very nice features of this device:
- auto reflevel
- dynamic loudness
- very nice AKM converter
- slow rampup of volume when plugging phones or changing channels
- remote
- key remapping features
- etc etc ..

You can combine this very nicely with either UFX+ or via HDSPe MADI FX, e.g. by using the AES port.
Here I documented how to integrate the ADI-2 Pro into your RME setup:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … our-Setup/

The differences between ADI-2 Pro DAC and Pro you can see here, for studio best take the "Pro" device:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=32506

To your questions:

> I want an all-in-one system - great for recording a drum kit with external pre's, great for travelling to
> record a singer songwriter, great for expanding to record an orchestra. So, wanting to stay with RME,
> my best bet seems to be a Fireface UFX+..

Yes its very nice indeed. Two different interfaces towards computer (USB3/TB), even USB2 possible (without MADI).
DUREC, Autoset, overhauled analog section (compared to old flagship UFX), very nice standalone capabilities, operateable in standalone mode through display (or via iPad).

> But in order to use this with 3 or 4 12mic's (for orchestral recording), I surely have to use MADI?
> (Unless I use both the Fireface and an RME AVB box, and a switch? - sounds more complicated to me...)

The RME AVB interface provided simply AVB functionality. No Mic inputs, DUREC, Autoset, etc.
Depends on the setup.
At the end of the day with the 12Mic you are future ready whenever you want to switch to AVB.
For the time being you can also daisy chain devices with MADI.
Dedicated infrastructure .. no issues .. no add-on costs for AVB switches.

> So if I were to use the above combination (Fireface UFX+, connected to the 12mic via MADI) how can I
> remotely control the mic pre's? I read in the user manual that it supports midi over madi, but how is this implemented?

Auxdevice support will come later. Do it like me, via network using Webbrowser, works like a charm.

Later via MIDI over MADI by integrating those devices into TotalMix FX (as "Auxdevice").
Then you can control and save the most import parameters in TotalMix FX snapshots.

> Also, can I route audio from my DAW down to the 12mic, and output it from the headphone/line
> out jack on the front panel? And is this also possible for the ADAT outputs? (or are these mic pre direct outs only?).

You will use the Webbrowser to comfortably configure the routing on the 12Mic between the different I/O ports.

> Finally - not knowing much about MADI - do you simply daisy-chain MADI devices together?

Yes .. each cable is capable to support 2km.
Patchcables are available up to 30m, longer cables are also available (with thicker mantling).
You can even use Single Mode fiber (laser based), then even 10km between each device is possible.
For the 12Mic you simply buy a Single Mode SFP.
For the UFX+ it would also be possible but require a special order to get single mode instead of multimode.

> If so, how are they identified?

Each device has a MADI ID 1..8.
On each device you configure
- which MADI input channels to assign for the inputs
- which MADI output channels to assign for the outputs

You can even add another recording device, like MADIface Pro, to this MADI chain to get a backup DAW.

If you use Windows PC, then you can also use Global Record for recordings and backup recordings.

> Thanks

You're welcome. I hope this helps a bit further.

Other articles that might be of interest you can find here: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … Cbersicht/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

4 Reply by Camilo1 (edited by Camilo1 2021-03-02 17:28:16)

  • Registered: 2019-04-12
  • Posts: 35

Re: 12mic MADI questions

So I'd need to run a separate cat5 cable to the 12mic in order to remotely control them? Does this need to be via a switch/router? No word on when this "aux device" control might be available I'm sure sadly..

And also - Midi over Madi isn't currently an option? Surely these are controllable without networking anything? They are sold as MADI mic pre's after all..

8.4. Remote Control Overview
The 12Mic can be remotely controlled. Remote control is activated by default and is not affected by
preset changes or device lock.
The network controls over HTTP and AVDECC operate simultaneously. Two or more controller instances
are synchronized. The MIDI control works either via DIN or is embedded into either MADI signals. Both
network and MIDI control can be operated at the same time.

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
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  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,192

Re: 12mic MADI questions

> So I'd need to run a separate cat5 cable to the 12mic in order to remotely control them?

Yes, you connect the 12Mic to your network like any other device in your network.

> Does this need to be via a switch/router?

You have already smth like a DSL router with integrated or separate switch if your have internet...
You use internet, you should know already the basics, otherwise ask your IT coordinator.

> And also - Midi over Madi isn't currently an option?

MIDI over MADI is the basis for remote control over MADI. Either for applications like MIDIRemote or Auxdevice.
BUT
a) as  the 12Mic can be administered per Web Browser, there will most likely be no implementation for MIDIRemote and
b) Auxdevice feature needs support in TotalMix FX and in the firmware of the device, this needs to be implemented
and this needs some more time

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2019-04-12
  • Posts: 35

Re: 12mic MADI questions

ramses wrote:

> So I'd need to run a separate cat5 cable to the 12mic in order to remotely control them?

Yes, you connect the 12Mic to your network like any other device in your network.

> Does this need to be via a switch/router?

You have already smth like a DSL router with integrated or separate switch if your have internet...
You use internet, you should know already the basics, otherwise ask your IT coordinator.

> And also - Midi over Madi isn't currently an option?

MIDI over MADI is the basis for remote control over MADI. Either for applications like MIDIRemote or Auxdevice.
BUT
a) as  the 12Mic can be administered per Web Browser, there will most likely be no implementation for MIDIRemote and
b) Auxdevice feature needs support in TotalMix FX and in the firmware of the device, this needs to be implemented
and this needs some more time

Such a shame it's not been released "ready to go" so to speak. It's a MADI mic amp, not just an AVB mic amp! When I'm off recording on location I don't have a network, and I don't (necessarily) want one! That's the (potential) beauty of the Fireface+ and MADI mic pre combo - robust, contained, point to point, comms, monitoring...

Perhaps there's an updated Fireface UFX AVB in the works that will make sense of it all, but in the meantime I suppose I'll try to get one on demo and see what's what.

  • tdc
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  • Registered: 2017-11-04
  • Posts: 79

Re: 12mic MADI questions

Camilo1 wrote:

Such a shame it's not been released "ready to go" so to speak. It's a MADI mic amp, not just an AVB mic amp! When I'm off recording on location I don't have a network, and I don't (necessarily) want one! That's the (potential) beauty of the Fireface+ and MADI mic pre combo - robust, contained, point to point, comms, monitoring...

I completely agree, but also understand the pressures companies like RME are under to develop new technology, so I appreciate their stratedgy of a staggered roll-out. 

Camilo1 wrote:

Perhaps there's an updated Fireface UFX AVB in the works that will make sense of it all

I have invested in the 12Mic system based on that hope! :-)