Topic: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

I'm using an XTC with a UFX+. The XTC is connected to a 12mic via MADI, and then routed through MADI 1-8 to the UFX+.

My MIDI settings on the XTC are:

Control (inp.): MADI In
USB MIDI 1: off
USB MIDI 2: off
MIDI Din Out: off
MIDI over MADI: Control

In TotalMix, under Options|Settings|Aux Devices I have selected:

Digital Channels: MADI 1-8
Device: Octamic XTC
MIDI In: UFX+ MADI Optical
MIDI Out: UFX+ MADI Optical
Device ID: 0

HOWEVER, after selecting OK and saving the snapshot, when I open the Settings dialog again, Digital Channels contains "ADAT 1-8".

I am not using any ADAT at the moment.

Can anyone offer any suggestions as to why TotalMix keeps changing this field and how I can get this working?

Everything works fine with the XTC if I set things manually.

Re: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

The 1st MADI device has ID 1, not ID0 (IMHO and in my setup using Auto-CA).
On the XTC you can set Auto-CA, this provides among other things also a default routing for the device.
Order of devices: I would use the XTC as 1st device, then 12Mic.
So to say, the devices that break the usual 8port schema with 12 channels (like 12mic) last on the bus.
XTC then ch 1-8, 12Mic 9-20
On the 12Mic you need then to route all other ports from MADI input to output (1-8, 21-64).
In TM FX the Auxdevice settings are then:
MADI1-8
Octamic XTC
MIDI IN:  UFX+ Mid Port 3
MIDI OUT: UFX+ Mid Port 3
Device ID:1
Auxdevice support for 12Mic not yet there.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

Re: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

Thank you ramses.

I have a MADI loop set up going from the UFX+ to the 12mic, then to the XTC, and finally back to the UFX+. To my understanding, this should work fine. I could change it around if nothing else works.

I used the 12mic web page to route the 12 mic analog inputs to MADI 9-20 and the MADI inputs 1-8 to MADI outputs 1-8. I set up TotalMix accordingly. This is how I've been set up since I got the equipment.

I've set the XTC to Auto-CA. I also changed it from MIDI Device 0 to MIDI Device 1.

When I enter the Setting | Aux Devices information, it accepts MADI 1-8 for Digital Channels for the Octamic XTC, but when I open the dialog box again it has changed back to ADAT 1-8. It seems to me that this must be at the bottom of the problem, but I can't see how to fix it.

Re: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

Incidentally, the expected knobs and buttons for the XTC appear in TotalMix after I enter the information in Settings | Aux Devices. They just don't do anything.

Re: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

Have you tested the Midi Remote program ?
Wouldn't it be easier to control the XTC over this ?

M1-Monterey, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver

Re: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

waedi wrote:

Have you tested the Midi Remote program ?
Wouldn't it be easier to control the XTC over this ?

I've never been able to get the MIDI Remote program to work. It reports the device as "offline". I would prefer to use TotalMix in any case, because it's closer to a single central control. (Especially once 12mic works with it.)

Re: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

waedi wrote:

Have you tested the Midi Remote program ?
Wouldn't it be easier to control the XTC over this ?

1. if MIDI over MADI does not work, then nothing in terms of remote control works, neither MIDI Remot, nor Auxdevice

2. with Auxdevice its possible to save / restore all important settings in TotalMix snapshots which is a timesave
    All unter control in this one TM FX instance without the need to open any other window on screen

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

8 (edited by ramses 2021-05-25 08:31:07)

Re: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

Hi vanceen

vanceen wrote:

I have a MADI loop set up going from the UFX+ to the 12mic, then to the XTC, and finally back to the UFX+. To my understanding, this should work fine. I could change it around if nothing else works.

There must be a reason why this does not work, otherwise it would work... ;-)

I identified already several things in your setup that are IMHO wrong or missing.

1. MADI ID 0 questionable .. from what I know you need to use 1..8
2. Would be better to use Auto-CA for automatic setting of MADI ID and routing of the 8ch of the XTC
    Then its more likely that no settings in the XTC are missing in terms of routing on the XTC
3. For this the order of devices suboptimal, better:
    - 1st the devices who autodetect their position on MADI bus and follow the traditional 8-port scheme XTC (or XTC's)
    - THEN devices which break the 8-port schema by having 12 ports
4. TM FX config in terms of Auxdevice was wrong, it was not configured to use MIDI over MADI
5. The routing of channels on 12Mic is most likely not complete, you need to route also those madi channels
     through this device, otherwise the next device does not get MADI data
and perhaps also:
6. Settings on all devices for 64ch and 96k frame format ?
7. UFX+ clock master (clock source internal) and all other devices get clock from MADI optical ?

I implemented already three different MADI scenarios successfully:
a) UFX+, 2x XTC
b) HDSPe MADI FX, XTC, ADI-8QS and on the 2nd of the three MADI busses an UFX+ simply as a recorder (DURec)
c) UFX+, XTC, 12Mic ..
And c) is the one that you also want to implement .. it just works here ...

If you do not get both devices implemented then simplify the setup.

Start with one device and again my recommendation to use the XTC 1st because only this way it is possible to mix devices coming from a different design background. The XTC is from a time of 8-port devices with special MADI features like Auto-ID and Auto-CA but which require this 8-port schema (pls. check XTC manual it's explained therein).

The 12Mic has no extended RME MADI features because it has been designed with primarily AVB networks and higher port densities in mind. By this such features like Auto-ID and Auto-CA are not possible.

And IMHO the only way, so that this can work is, that you put the devices with capabilities to detect their MADI ID (1..8 !! Not starting with zero), make delay compensation and to perform an automatic channel assignment
And the automatic detection of MADI ID has also something to do with the physical order of the devices on the bus.

You also need to look, best not to create any holes in the numbering of channels

Avoid:
1..12 = 12Mic
13-16 = unused (then you have a hole in the numbering, how cool is that ?!)
17-24 = XTC ?

Wouldn't it be better to have
1..8 = XTC1
9..20 = 12Mic

And if you think about this further, what if you have 2x XTC and 1x 12Mic ?
1..8 = XTC1   (Auto-CA for easier setup)
9..16 = XTC2 (Auto-CA for easier setup)
17..28 = 12Mic

Simplify the setup for 12Mic alone

This little "trick" to simplify the setup you should maybe also use for the 12Mic. To become familiar with the routing on the device until the UFX+ gets audio data ... Then also the passing through of other channels works.

Here an example how to configure it with two XTCs ...

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … Cber-MADI/

In this review you find different combinations of XTC and 12Mic
Simply read this to get a feeling what combinations make sense and then please follow the logic XTCs first, then 12Mics.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … XTC-DE-EN/

And as I said, start with the XTC so that you get a valid configuration with
- XTC properly configured and using Auto-CA (because that also does the routing task from/to MADI on the device)
- TM FX properly configured to choos the proper MIDI IN/OUT channels .. and #3 is MIDI over MADI using optical

If this works .. then you can start adding the 12Mic as the 2nd device, because then you know all other things were configured properly and you could see this already in action.

Remember, Auxdevice support for the 12Mic is promised but will need some more time than thought.

But on the 12Mic its cruicial that you configure the routing properly.
Not only for the device itself even for passing the other MADI channels through.
Otherwise the UFX+ doesn't get anything back from other devices on the MADI chain.
So no only route 12 Mic ports to MADI channels 9-20.
But you also need to route
-   from MADI channel   1..  8 IN to channel   1-  8 OUT
-   from MADI channel 21..64 IN to channel 21-64 OUT

Good luck.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

9

Re: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

vanceen wrote:

In TotalMix, under Options|Settings|Aux Devices I have selected:

Digital Channels: MADI 1-8
Device: Octamic XTC
MIDI In: UFX+ MADI Optical
MIDI Out: UFX+ MADI Optical
Device ID: 0

HOWEVER, after selecting OK and saving the snapshot, when I open the Settings dialog again, Digital Channels contains "ADAT 1-8".

You have to take a closer look. The first entry is a list, what that list shows after opening is always the first entry. All these entries can have their own individual settings. If you select MADI 1-8 you will notice that all your settings are still there.

To debug your setup: remove the 12Mic from the ring, only UFX+ and XTC - that should work. Now insert the 12Mic with the settings described here

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 31#p170031

so that it passes the MIDI over MADI. Using the 12 Mic behind the XTC will allow to see the front LEDs on the XTC to light up, so if that works the 12Mic still blocks the MIDI over MADI information.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

10 (edited by vanceen 2021-05-25 16:16:20)

Re: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

Thanks for the replies.

Ramses, the XTC was selected to be MIDI Device 0, not MADI Device 0. And I'm using Auto-CA. Also, I have always had the XTC configured for MADI 1-8 and the 12mic for MADI 9-20. And apart from TotalMix control, everything is working fine, so it does not seem likely to me that the routing is a problem. But I will try it with the XTC alone as suggested.

MC, my 12mic is configured as described in the link. But I will try it with the XTC alone and then the 12mic following in the MADI chain, as you suggest.

Regarding the Settings | Aux Devices menu, when I close and re-open the dialog it shows ADAT 1-8. OK, you've explained that this is the default. But it also shows Octamic XTC selected and optical MADI for the ins and outs. Shouldn't these say "none"?

11 (edited by vanceen 2021-05-26 05:29:06)

Re: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

OK, solved.

It may help someone else if I outline what I did.

As suggested, first I connected only the XTC in a MADI loop. Voila, TotalMix now controls everything it's supposed to.

Then I re-connected the 12mic. Now, TotalMix has no effect on the XTC.

The way the MADI cables were hooked up was like this:

UFX+ out => XTC in
XTC out => 12mic in
12mic out => UFX+ in

I tried reversing the MADI outs and ins as follows:

UFX+ in <= XTC out
XTC in <= 12mic out
12mic in <= UFX+ out

and it works. Now I have control over the XTC via TotalMix and the 12mic via its web page. I've checked out every device, and it's all functioning as it should.

It looks as if having the cables reversed works fine for everything except MIDI control. I hope this helps out someone else.

12 (edited by ramses 2021-05-25 20:19:59)

Re: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

Ok, so you cabled now: UFX+ -> 12Mic -> XTC -> and back to UFX+
May I ask, how is your channel mapping on the MADI Bus now ? Did / could you use Auto-CA on the XTC ?

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

Re: XTC won't respond to TotalMix - AUX setup

ramses wrote:

Ok, so you cabled now: UFX+ -> 12Mic -> XTC -> and back to UFX+
May I ask, how is your channel mapping on the MADI Bus now ? Did / could you use Auto-CA on the XTC ?

Hi ramses,

My mapping is the same as I've always had it, i.e. XTC MADI 1-8, 12mic MADI 9-20.

I did enable Auto-CA on the XTC, but it did not seem to solve the problem, at least not on its own.

I think there may be some confusion here between MADI Device Number and MIDI Device Number. The 12mic is MIDI Device 1 and the XTC is MIDI Device 0, and I'm assuming their MADI Device numbers are both assigned automatically since they are both set to Auto-CA.

Thanks very much for all your help.