Topic: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

I've been able to use TotalMix to control my XTC using the following setup:

MADI

UFX+ out => 12mic in, 12mic out => XTC in, XTC out => UFX+ in

The CRTL I and CRTL II buttons light up on the XTC, and I can toggle phantom power (and everything else) from TotalMix.

BUT...

On two separate occasions, the connection has failed. The CTRL lights go off, and the XTC does not respond to TotalMix at all. I checked all the settings and connections on all three devices and on TotalMix, and they are all correct as far as I can see.

On both occasions I took the 12mic out of the MADI loop and just connected:

UFX+ out => XTC in, XTC out => UFX+ in

and connection to TotalMix was re-established.

And then - here's the suprising part to me - when I reconnected the 12 mic in the loop as shown at the top of this message, TotalMix STILL works.

This does not seem right to me. Can someone explain a way to keep the TotalMix connection from being lost?

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Hi,
did you happen to restart the 12Mic? The current release does not recall the MIDI Input and Output port after boot. I have posted a beta firmware yesterday, please check if the problem is fixed.
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=33265
Best regards,
Max

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Thanks, Max.

I can't say for certain that I didn't restart the 12mic, although I usually leave it on. I'm applying the beta firmware update now and will see how that goes.

In the thread you linked you mentioned that you were going to post something for MIDI but I didn't see it in subsequent messages. Is that available?

Thanks.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

After applying the firmware update I found I had to change the MIDI in from OFF to MADI Optical again on the 12mic.

But TotalMix still didn't work for the XTC.

I double-checked the settings for all three devices and for TotalMix, and everything looked right.

So again I cabled up the XTC with the UFX+, leaving out the 12mic, and then TotalMix worked.

And again I re-cabled as described above (UFX+ => 12mic => XTC), and again everything now works.

I can only hope the firmware update will keep the 12mic from changing settings and somehow messing up the MADI flow, which is one interpretation of what I've observed.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

After applying the 12mic firmware update, it's remembering its settings, i.e. I don't have to change MIDI In from OFF to MADI Optical.

However, the same problem I described above happened again. The Octamic XTC stopped responding to TotalMix.

I went through the same steps as before, i.e. I took the 12mic out of the MADI loop, and then the XTC responded to TotalMix. After hooking up the MADI cables as they were before:

Fireface UFX+ => 12mic => Octamic XTC => Fireface XTC+

The TotalMix functionality is restored for the XTC.

Obviously, this isn't satisfactory. I would be grateful for any suggestions how to keep this from happening. The equipment stays on all the time, and my PC stays on all the time, only entering Sleep mode at night.

6 (edited by georgob 2021-06-15 11:11:09)

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

My chain  Is similar, but I go the other way around.
From madiface to octamic xtc to 12 mic to 12mic to madiface.
Is use midiremote for the octamic, this works reliably so far with the new 12mic firmware.
Georg

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

georgob wrote:

My chain  Is similar, but I go the other way around.
From madiface to octamic xtc to 12 mic to 12mic to madiface.
Is use midiremote for the octamic, this works reliably so far with the new 12mic firmware.
Georg

The first time I tried that routing, the remote control didn't work.

I'll try it again! Thanks.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

OK, I hooked it up as suggested:

UFX+ => XTC => 12mic => UFX+

CTRL I illuminates on the XTC, but TotalMix remote doesn't work.

Once again, I removed the 12mic so that I have:  UFX+=>XTC=>UFX+

Remote control works. Then I hook up the 12mic again, but second in the chain as shown at the top of this message.

Remote control works. For now.

Unfortunately, I'm not any further along than I was. TotalMix keeps losing contact with the XTC (time will tell, but I'm assuming so), and only hooking up the XTC only to the UFX+ and then re-connecting the 12mic restores the function.

TotalMix control is one of the big reasons for my purchase of the XTC. I'm pretty disappointed at the moment.

RME people, if you're monitoring this, should I take the question to Synthax USA?

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

No need, we're on it. Thanks for the reports.
-Max

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

That's great news, Max. I'll be watching out.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

OK, an update.

The last advice I got was to run MADI out from the UFX+ to the Octamic XTC first, then to the 12 mic and back to the UFX+.

TotalMix remote control worked a little longer than usual with this setup.

But sure enough, after a while it stopped. On the Control I light is on on the XTC, and TotalMix does not control it.

I did the same thing as I've done in the past, i.e. connect the UFX+ and the XTC in a loop without the 12mic. Everything works fine, both Control lights on, and TotalMix remote control works. Then I wired the 12mic back in, and as in the past, everything continued working.

I look forward to some kind of solution to this.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Hi vanceen,

is Totalmix the only application accessing the MIDI bus when you observe these issues? Or do you have other applications running that are sending data to the same MIDI output (Midi Remote AVB, DAW, ...)?

Is the UFX+ attached to a Windows PC or Mac OS?

Thanks
Marc

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Oh, and could you do me a favor and check something for me:

The next time it happens (12mic is in chain, Totalmix control did work but stops working), please try the following:
On the 12mic, Remote section, switch MIDI input to "Off" and back to "MADI optical" (or coax depending on your setup).
Does Totalmix control work again?

Thanks
Marc

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Thanks, Marc.

I'm using Windows 10.

I don't use MIDI much. I have a Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol keyboard connected to the UFX+ MIDI 1 DIN port for input to Reaper. I don't have any idea whether the TotalMix MIDI connection uses that or not, I would guess not.

I just looked up and saw that the CTRL II light is off on my XTC, so I tried your suggestion about changing the MIDI input on the 12mic to Off and back to MADI Optical (that's what I'm using). It didn't seem to do anything.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

I should also mention that in TotalMix, under Options|Settings|MIDI|MIDI Connection, I have UFX+ MADI Optical selected.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

And did you try it with midi remote? Disable totalmix control. Use midi remote.
This worked good for me.
Georg

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

I haven't been able to get MIDI remote to work with the Octamic XTC.

Also, I like TotalMix and prefer to use it.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

OK, understood. Just to say that it works for me.
Midi Remote Does not lose connection, even with 2 12mics in series.
AVB Remote does lose connection, though but I hope this will be resolved soon.
Georg

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Thanks for your input!
It seems that what you two observe are unrelated issues. We of course intend to resolve both.

vanceen, next week we'll be able to reproduce your exact setup. I hope this will shed some light on the root cause.
I wonder why switching MIDI inputs on the 12mic doesn't help, as this, internally, resets the entire MIDI module.
If you happen to run into the situation again, maybe you could try to unplug and replug the MADI cables, one after the other. It's absolutely possible that replugging one of the lines brings Totalmix control back to life. This will give us valuable feedback on what to look out for.

Georg, thanks for your feedback! We're working on resolving the MIDI Remote AVB issue on Windows. It could be that we have to replace an underlaying library, so it might take some time. Probably we are able to find a workaround so you can start using the remote soon!

Best regards
Marc

20 (edited by vanceen 2021-06-24 20:17:36)

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Marc,

The next time this happens I will unplug the cables one at a time and replug them in the full configuration with both the XTC and the 12mic. I hope that I have understood correctly.

Here's some more information. Yesterday, for the first time, my usual trick did not work. (I mean MADI wiring up the XTC without the 12 mic and then wiring the 12mic in.) I could not get TotalMix control of the XTC, even with just a simple MADI loop between it and the UFX+.

I began to fool around with TotalMix Options|Settings|Aux Devices, setting all the Digital Channel configurations to None, None, None and "0", EXCEPT MADI 1-8. I made sure that the Device ID under Aux Devices and the XTC were both set to MIDI Device 0. I made sure that the 12mic was set to MIDI Device 1. The CTRL lights came on on the XTC and TotalMix remote began to work. It also works with the 12mic included in the loop.

Now, this happened after I had tried all different kinds of MIDI Device numbers on both the XTC and the 12mic, different ID number for the various Digital Channels, etc. Nothing worked, unti it did, as described above.

I could of course be wrong, but I'm getting the impression that problem has something to do with TotalMix settings.

So far, it's still working, but I'm not too confident that the problem's solved. In any case, I don't have any idea why it's solved, which isn't satisfactory.

21

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Hi vanceen,

you mention that both CTRL lights go off when the connection breaks (at one point, it seems to be only the CTRL O, output indicator). Does the audio transmission work, ie. do you receive audio signals from the XTC when that happens? Also, does the CTRL O light go temporarily on when you change the gain on the XTC? What is the software version of the XTC (Setup key > Options > General Settings > at the very bottom you find SW Version)? Are you using the newest RME driver and firmware for the UFX+ as well?

You can rule out a problem with TotalMix by using the MIDI Remote, setting it (Options>MIDI I/O Setup) to UFX+ MADI Optical), and then starting transmission (Options>Start/Stop MIDI I/O). If that brings the CTRL I and O back on, the issue is unrelated to TotalMix.

I tested 12Mic and XTC in a serial connection for hours - TotalMix remote control is absolutely stable here.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Thanks, Max. I replied to this earlier, but my message isn't here, so I'll repeat.

you mention that both CTRL lights go off when the connection breaks (at one point, it seems to be only the CTRL O, output indicator). Does the audio transmission work, ie. do you receive audio signals from the XTC when that happens?

Everything works fine except TotalMix Remote Control.

Also, does the CTRL O light go temporarily on when you change the gain on the XTC?

TotalMix Remote is working at the moment, so I can't tell what happens if it's not working. At the moment, adjusting channel gain does nothing to the CTRL light. I don't remember ever seeing the light respond to adjusting channel gain manually.

What is the software version of the XTC (Setup key > Options > General Settings > at the very bottom you find SW Version)?

26/47

Are you using the newest RME driver and firmware for the UFX+ as well?

Yes. I double-checked today.

ou can rule out a problem with TotalMix by using the MIDI Remote, setting it (Options>MIDI I/O Setup) to UFX+ MADI Optical), and then starting transmission (Options>Start/Stop MIDI I/O). If that brings the CTRL I and O back on, the issue is unrelated to TotalMix.

I tried this, and for the first time MIDI Remote worked for me. Sort of. For some reason MIDI Remote randomly switched things on and off (Pad, +48V, Autoset...). Very strange. Both lights were already on, since TotalMix Remote is working at the moment. I'll try this again if it breaks.

I tested 12Mic and XTC in a serial connection for hours - TotalMix remote control is absolutely stable here.

That's what I'm hoping for! Thanks again.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

OK, for what it's worth I figured out what was going on with MIDI Remote. Even though I had closed TotalMix, Windows Task Manager showed that TotalMix (32 bit) was running as a background process. After killing that task, MIDI Remote worked fine.

24

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Maybe I lost the plot, but stopping TM FX to use XTC commands just requires Settings - Aux Devices - Device set to None. No need to kill the program.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Yes, when trying midi remote,  be sure to disable aux device control in total mix.
They cannot work together   
Georg

26

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Hi Vanceen,

I should have made that more clear: the point is to try out MIDI Remote for the Octamic XTC when the symptom starts, ie. the CTRL lights are off and TotalMix cannot control the Octamic XTC any longer. I assume that MIDI Remote would also not be able to control the Octamic XTC and therefore the issue is unrelated to TotalMix.

If at any point you prefer to inspect and solve this issue directly with our support, please let us know.

In the meantime, in our testing we did find that there are issues if two independent programs in Windows are sending control messages to or through the Octamic XTC, but those do not lead to a loss of control for an extended period of time (it just causes problems as you experienced above when using MIDI Remote and TotalMix together, and it recovers after you switch off one software). We also found an issue where the beta version of MIDI Remote AVB for the 12Mic does not receive incoming messages after some time, and we're working on fixing that (different thread). But we were not able to reproduce your symptom, where only TotalMix is sending data on the UFX+ Optical MIDI over MADI port through a 12Mic and an XTC.

I hope we can get to the bottom of this!
Best regards,
Max

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

MC wrote:

Maybe I lost the plot, but stopping TM FX to use XTC commands just requires Settings - Aux Devices - Device set to None. No need to kill the program.

It wasn't you who lost the plot, it was me. That's a much better way.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

Max wrote:

Hi Vanceen,

I should have made that more clear: the point is to try out MIDI Remote for the Octamic XTC when the symptom starts, ie. the CTRL lights are off and TotalMix cannot control the Octamic XTC any longer. I assume that MIDI Remote would also not be able to control the Octamic XTC and therefore the issue is unrelated to TotalMix.

If at any point you prefer to inspect and solve this issue directly with our support, please let us know.

In the meantime, in our testing we did find that there are issues if two independent programs in Windows are sending control messages to or through the Octamic XTC, but those do not lead to a loss of control for an extended period of time (it just causes problems as you experienced above when using MIDI Remote and TotalMix together, and it recovers after you switch off one software). We also found an issue where the beta version of MIDI Remote AVB for the 12Mic does not receive incoming messages after some time, and we're working on fixing that (different thread). But we were not able to reproduce your symptom, where only TotalMix is sending data on the UFX+ Optical MIDI over MADI port through a 12Mic and an XTC.

I hope we can get to the bottom of this!
Best regards,
Max

Thanks, Max. You did make that clear. However, TotalMix remote is working for the time being, so I can't really try it yet.

Mixed feelings here. I'm glad it's working, but I would really like to understand what was wrong so that I can avoid it or fix it if it happens again.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

OK, I thought I was done with this, but I'm not!

After a long time of working reliably, the Control II light went off (Control I is on), and TotalMix does not control the XTC.

I did the same old thing, hooking up the XTC only to the UFX+ via MADI, and it brought things back to normal.

However, when I rebooted later, Control II was off again and there was no TotalMix control.

Following the request from Max above, I disabled TotalMix MIDI and started MIDI Remote. It works fine. When I close MIDI Remote and go back to TotalMix, only Control I is on and TotalMix does not control the XTC.

I unplugged the MADI cables one at a time as requested by Marc. None of them had any effect.

Then I spotted that in TotalMix settings | Aux Devices, MADI 1-8, the Device ID had changed to 1 for some reason! I have the XTC set to 0 and the 12mic to 1. When I changed the Device ID to 0, everything started working again.

Maybe this will help someone in the future.

Re: More issues re: Octamic XTC and 12mic with UFX+

In case anyone is following this, I'm still having exactly the same issue.

The MIDI connection between TotalMix and the XTC is lost intermittently, with Control I staying on and Control II going off.

Connecting the UFX+ via MADI to the XTC and only XTC instantly restores connection. Subsequently adding the 12mic into the loop results in the lights staying on and connection being maintained.

I don't know why the intermittent disonnection happens. There may be a connection with re-booting my computer, which led me to think that the default settings (Workspace 'Default') in TotalMix weren't correct. But I checked, and they are correct.