Topic: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hi,

I'm having this issue for long time.
There is a lot of dirt (noises, clics, crackles) when I move the output volume in Totalmix.
I don't really use totalmix beside monitoring functions and I/O configurations, but every time I move that fader the sound isn't clean at all during the change.
I use a midi knob to control the volume, but if I move the fader with the mouse in TM, same problem applies.
It doesn't change anything if I change the buffer size.
I use rme9652 PCIe, connected to a D/A via SPDIF.
Clock source is the D/A (Lavry blue)

Any idea ?? Thanks for your help.

2

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Driver and TM FX version?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

driver 4.0.6.0
TM FX 1.08
On win7

It might sound old wink
Will see what updates are available now and post feedbacks

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Just updated
driver 4.1.7.0
TM FX 1.40

Still the same.

I actually have the 9652 PCI (not PCIe)

5

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

The HDSP9632 does not have the latest mixer engine like our newest interfaces where this 'zipper noise' is suppressed much more. Note that this noise is program dependent. You seem to listen to that kind of stuff where it gets easy to notice (strings, flutes, synth pads...). Others usually don't notice it at all.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Definitely this is much more noticeable when there is a smooth sample with not so much high frequencies.
So is it a "nothing to do" issue ?
I will off course not get a newer product just to get this fixed and will live with it if there is nothing to do.
This piece of hardware is rocking solid otherwise and I still want to have many years of use with it. But if there was anything to do to have a clean volume change it would be great. Sometimes the digital clicks are quite loud and unwelcome for the listening experience.
Thanks anyway for your pro-presence on the forum and advice for RME users. Many MAO developers aren't this close and reactive with their customers. Much appreciated!

7

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Nothing to do, because the FPGA does not allow us to update the 9632's mixer engine for such an improvement, sorry.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

You could use analogue volume control after the lavry. I use a TC electronic level pilot after my ADI8 AE. Very hands on and easy to kill all sound in case of emergency (computer crash/hang). Advantage is you do use full digital scale without digital attenuation. Disadvantage is another device in the signal path (although 100% passive).

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

That was one option I considered, but after some reading it appeared that digital attenuation seemed to sound better to many users. I'm not saying, just reporting my result of some researches.
I made a single knob with the right MIDI CC sent via arduino, for the same purpose as your passive potentiometer. Very handy for sure to have a pot next to your hand at any time.
It's all fine, just those crackles that I was wondering if it was possible to get rid of.

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

MC, you mention twice in your messages 9632, while it's 9652... not sure if that makes any différence ?

11

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

It does. I was already wondering...the 9632 is not that bad with zipper noise, as it has only a few channels. The 'old' HDSP 9652 has lots of channels, and  therefore can't render the smoothing efficiently.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Okidoki .. thanks for all the info and your time!

13 (edited by lebarde 2021-08-04 20:07:18)

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hello.

I've recently upgraded my system to a brand new computer and RME Raydat.
I'm still having clicking issues, not the exact same as before though.
Still a bit of clics when moving the master fader up and down (and as said earlier, depending on the material being played), but it's little.. no biggie here.
However when the I turn down the master fader all the way down rapidly, it generates a strong clic (only on my left side here) and it seems to occur only on the spdif out. I have other monitors connected via ADAT+ADI8 converters, and nothing to report there.
On totalmix, the clic appears and it varies between -15 and -5db.
Latest driver and firmware installed... winXP pro.

Any clue how to get rid of this ?
Thanks

14 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2021-08-05 00:39:02)

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hello!

You mentioned in your first post that the Clock Source is your D/A(Lavry Blue). Can you post a link of your specific model?
Also, how do you have it connected to the RayDat?
Any other equipment?(apart from the ADI8)

Maybe those clicks point to a clocking issue.
.

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

15 (edited by lebarde 2021-08-05 11:48:07)

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Thanks for your answer.
Yeah, that could be a clock issue.. however everything seems super stable while using the setup, except those clics in this specific case (turning spdif out all the way down).. and yeah, they are loud !

Here is my setup :

Raydat SPDIF -> Trinnov ST -> Lavry Blue -> Speakers
Raydat SPDIF <- Lavry Blue <- AN Input
Raydat ADAT 1/8 -> RME Fireface (used as DA)
Raydat ADAT 1/8 <- RME Fireface (used as AD)
Raydat ADAT 9/16 -> ADI-8 DS
Raydat ADAT 9/16 <- ADI-8 DS
Raydat ADAT 17/24 -> ADI-8 DS
Raydat ADAT 17/24 <- ADI-8 DS

The Trinnov ST is an old version, that as actually an RME 9632 in it (or 9652, not sure).
The Lavry converter is M-DA 824

I can change pretty much any setting available on the Lavry, doesn't make any difference.
I tried to change the master clock device, to the Trinnov or the Raydat.. No difference with my issue.
I just didn't try to put the ADI-8 as master.. which wouldn't make sense to me.

If it was a clocking issue.. wouldn't it be more unstable locking / syncing ?

https://ibb.co/RySqh7w

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Thanks for the info!

What does the RayDat driver report?
Is every Input reported as "sync"? Is anything alternating between "Lock" and "Sync"?

Also, number of WDM Devices? I you have any configured, set them to zero and check if the click stops.

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

17 (edited by lebarde 2021-08-06 10:55:27)

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Yeah, all clocks are showing "sync" without changing to lock. (I know that situation where two device were on internal clock)
2 WDM devices used. The thing that I have noticed with testing that, is that I must have audio content to play.. if there is no sound going to the output, there no clics.
Also double checked that it only happens on the SPDIF... no such thing on the adat outs.

I made a video to show...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vFLLvG … sp=sharing

Thanks for your help

18 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2021-08-07 05:13:27)

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

You 're welcome!
And thanks for the video!

So it's not a clocking issue, as I, initially, thought.
Maybe, it 's a bit depth setting, somewhere..!

Did you test the SPDIF Outputs, with ASIO Operation only?(i.e disabling your WDM Devices)
Does this happen through a DAW?

Also, when you have your WDM Devices active, is Windows' Sample Rate the same as in the RayDat's driver Settings?

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hey,
So, yeah it does the issue the same way with all WDM deactivated and only playing ASIO audio from Cubase.
Windows sample rate is set the same as the rest, 44.1kHz, 24bit.

20 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2021-08-09 17:58:28)

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hmm, I thought of something else..

What kind of encoder are you using(for controlling volume) and how do you have it set up? (Mackie Protocol, MIDI)
Perhaps there is a midi resolution mismatch, or something, between the encoder and TMFX..!

Can you, please, post a screenshot of those settings?

Also, I checked Trinnov's site. Are you, by any chance, using the Trinnov app?

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Thanks for those inputs.. I'll check all this.. I'm just away for a little bit at the moment.
Cheers for your help on this, much appreciated.

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hey MetalHeadKeys.
Cheers again for your nice help !! I'm back into studio work after a bit of a summer break.

So, to carry on with this.. I do believe that the midi encoder I use to control TM should not be guilty, because if I move the fader with the mouse it also does the clics.

I'm not sure which midi settings you would like me to make a screenshot of ?.. like the TM midi settings ?
And yeah, I do have access to the Trinnov control surface.

Don't know if that helps, but with my old 9652 interface, it was doing some clicks too when changing volume, but not loud ones like now when reaching the minimum level.

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hi, lebarde!
You 're welcome!! Hope you had a good time!!

Some ideas came to mind!

About the encoder, I asked you because there are two types of functionality(that I 'm aware of).
If the communication with the encoder is bi-directional, one type is the "jump" to the value and the other is the "catch" the value.

The "jump" setting means that when you have the fader set to -30dB, for example, and the encoder is set to -40, when you touch the encoder the fader will jump to the -40 position, and then change to the new value.

The "catch" setting(in the same example) means that when you touch the encoder, no change will happen untill it reaches the -30dB value and after that it will change to the new value.

From the video, it looks to me that when you move the fader, quickly, TMFX is sending the new value(s) to the encoder and untill that calculation happens, the fader tries to jump to the encoder's previous value!
Of course all this takes place in milliseconds, but it 's enough time to create pops.

Can you try with the encoder disconnected?


The other idea is that maybe there is some conflict between TMFX and the Trinnov Control App, if they are using the same port for communicating with the encoder! If you are using OSC, that is!

So if you are using OSC, please post a screenshot of the OSC Settings of TMFX and the Trinnov Control App.
If it 's a Usb MIDI controller, post a screenshot of the MIDI settings!

And a link for the encoder, so we can check further!!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

24 (edited by lebarde 2021-09-13 17:23:20)

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Again I don't think we can blame the encoder because moving the fader with the mouse result to the same issue.
The controller is connected to an arduino board generating a CC message sent in midi.. no OSC involved here.

Here are the midi settings :
https://ibb.co/G2fKBH4

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Quote from manual, page 55:

Map Stereo to 2 Mono Channels. One
  fader controls one (mono) channel.
  Should  be  disabled  when  stereo  chan-
  nels are used.

Can you un-check this option?

Even if it 's not the encoder, I think that there is a midi mis-communication, somewhere..!
It does the pops by moving the fader, but did you try moving the fader with the encoder disconnected?

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

26 (edited by lebarde 2021-09-14 23:31:03)

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Not sure what your manual quote should help for ?.. I don't think there is stereo to mono channels mapping involved here, or am I missing something.

Just tried disconnecting the controller (midi cable out, and midi interface turned off)... same issue when moving the fader with the mouse.

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hi, lebarde!

lebarde wrote:

Not sure what your manual quote should help for ?.. I don't think there is stereo to mono channels mapping involved here, or am I missing something.

This option is enabled in your midi settings, under "Mackie Control Options".
And since the SPDIF Output is Stereo, I thought that by disabling it, it might fix those pops!


lebarde wrote:

Just tried disconnecting the controller (midi cable out, and midi interface turned off)... same issue when moving the fader with the mouse.

Hmm, if it 's not midi related, we 'll have to look elsewhere! Thanks for checking!
At least, we can rule out midi settings!

I 'll think some more about it, and come back for more testing suggestions, untill we find out what 's happening! smile

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

I see now this option you were referring to, about mapping stereo to 2 mono... just did the test by un-checking, but no improvement here.

Thanks a bunch again for the efforts and time to help me out, much appreciated ! If you get another idea I'm for sure keen to hear.

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hi, lebarde!

You 're welcome!!
I haven 't forgotten about your thread!
I 've been extremely busy all this time and I couldn't find some time to actually sit and think about this!

When things ease out a bit, I 'll post back!!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hi, lebarde!

I 've just found out that a new firmware has been released, since your last post!
It 's this one:  https://rme-audio.de/downloads/fut_wdm_dspe.zip  dated: 21-9-2021

This one requires driver version 4 or higher, so here is the up-to-date one for WinXP:
  https://rme-audio.de/downloads/driver_hdsp_win_438.zip

Can you try with the updated firmware? Maybe it fixes your issue!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

31 (edited by lebarde 2021-11-16 06:15:41)

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hey man,

I missed the notification of your last message..
I was much expecting that it would help... but still not.
Additionally, I figured out that it does the issue only on the left side.
If I put the master pan pot fully to the right, I don't have any problem there. Really just on the left side.
Isn't that weird ?!

I hope I can get that fixed sometime soon.. it starts to bother me more.. and I get a bit scared that it affects my tweeters.

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hey, lebarde!

Aah, I had hoped, too, that it would fix the issue..!

lebarde wrote:

If I put the master pan pot fully to the right, I don't have any problem there. Really just on the left side.
Isn't that weird ?!

Yeah, really weird!

Can you post a picture of the matrix view of your TMFX?
I know that you must have checked your routings a thousand times, but just in case!
Also, check if you have any unwanted Loopbacks or "M/S Processing", activated!

And, which SPDIF format are you using? The optical one? or the one via the breakout cable?

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

33 (edited by lebarde 2021-11-17 20:37:49)

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

https://ibb.co/7X0dJL7

Totally no funny routing going on.. no loopback nor MS processing here.
SPDIF is via the breakout cable, going by coax cable to the trinnov unit.

I just tested again to have the trinnov as master clock and the raydat as slave, and vice versa... same problem on both settings.
I could try via wordclock maybe...

34

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

I lost track here a bit. We are still taking about a left channel click on SPDIF output when you fully turn down the master fader?

Is there any signal routed to that master fader channel? If so disable all routings to that output to see if there is a hidden signal (like DC) that causes this.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hi MC,

Yes that is still the topic. But at the start it was with the hdsp9652, now it's with a recently purchased raydat.
With the 9652 it was small crackles when moving the fader, now it's a seriously hard click when turning the master fader all the way down.

Here is a video showing the issue
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P3Nstb … sp=sharing

Happens only on spdif left out. I have another set of monitors connect via ADAT to a ADI8, and nothing happens there.
I does happen only when there is audio played. (either from a basic media player or from a DAW)
I can't seem to see any DC signal that would cause that. I guess a DC signal would be present also if I don't play any sound.

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

? roll

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Hi, lebarde!

I 'm sorry, but I 'm out of ideas..
Perhaps, you could use DigiCheck and its "Bit Statistic & Noise" function, to check if there is any DC Signal on the Output.

Does the noise appear with all types of music? Did you try with classical recordings or single instruments(like classical guitar)?

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

No worries, thought MC maybe had a light on this.
It does happen with any kind of audio material. If the audio material is very quiet, the clics aren't too crazy loud, but I'd love to have it fixed because once the audio material is louder, the clics are realllly loud.
Digicheck bit statistic shows a DC value around -75dB / -80dB when playing an EDM track that is mastered pretty hot. I would assume that is a normal measurement value for this type of material ?!

39 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2021-12-10 01:59:12)

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

lebarde wrote:

Digicheck bit statistic shows a DC value around -75dB / -80dB when playing an EDM track that is mastered pretty hot. I would assume that is a normal measurement value for this type of material ?!

No, I don' t think this is normal! Poorly mastered material, usually, have DC offsets. But I 'm no expert on EDM, so I could be wrong, here..!

Here's a recent thread on the ADI 2 section of the forum:  https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=34265
Have a read on KaiS' post #2!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

I see what you mean, I've just checked some classical recordings and the DC level in some pieces goes even lower than my EDM stuffs (-50db or so).. definitely coming from some low frequency ambiant sounds not cleaned in the recording.. I also see it on digicheck...
But I do believe that what I have as DC value measured for heavy bass loaded material such as EDM is faire enough.
The audio material (and amount of bass) seems to surely have an impact on my clicking problem..
I just did a test playing a track with a low cut EQ at 1500kHz, the DC value shown by digicheck here is 150dB.. clicking still occurs very loudly.
Also, I would assume that if it was a DC problem here, that it should appear as much on the right side than on the left side... still only left side is concerned here.
One more plus thing, nothing happens using ADAT outs...

PS: the values measured said above are with my productions and mastering tongue Hope it's not that poorly made wink

Thanks man, still much appreciate all the time & efforts you've dedicated in my issue ! Very kind of you.

41

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

> I just did a test playing a track with a low cut EQ at 1500kHz, the DC value shown by digicheck here is 150dB.. clicking still occurs very loudly.

If you total reset TM FX, so only default routings and no FX at all, is that click then identical to that of the 1.5 kHz low cut test?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Just did the test to total reset TM FX, and yes.. exact same situation.
btw, I don't think I have access to any FX in my totalmix (or I missed it)

43

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

So let's try to get to the bottom of this. I have a RayDAT here under Windows, current firmware 207 and driver 4.38. I play back a music track (on the first two channels, ADAT 1/2) at 44.1 kHz, internal clock, nothing else connected to the card, and route the signal to the SPDIF output. I connected an ADI-2 Pro to receive the SPDIF coaxial signal and monitor it this way.

Now I move the fader in the third row for SPDIF to the bottom - no click. No matter if SPDIF is in the left or right Control room pane.

Your video shows SPDIF input signal, an active fader group and that the click is even shown on the level meters. That's why I asked for a Total Reset which would equal more my simple test case.

So what's still different in your test setup? And please reproduce mine.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Thanks for doing the test... however I'm afraid it will be hard to reproduce the same situation as yours as my SPDIF connexion goes to a trinnov unit, then to the main speakers.. I have 2 ADI-8DS here, but they don't have SPDIF inputs to test it with them.
As explained before, when connecting the Rayday via ADAT to the ADI-8, then to speakers, no issue at all.

That trinnov unit uses a RME 9652 internal card, I have tried all possible internal/master/slave clock options between the gears.

TM has no specific tweaks here, it receives the DAW playback on SPDIF channel and is routed to the SPDIF out. On the video the fader group is just the master fader assigned to the SPDIF out. If it's not assigned (as in a default layout, the same issue happens).

I could totally imagine that it's a local issue and it could be the mix with my trinnov unit, maybe a WC connexion between the two would work better, I don't know... I'm lost here and just would be happy to have this sorted...

Thanks hey !

45

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

You can easily reproduce the test. The Trinnov can be used as DA, just make sure it is not connected to send a signal to the card. This way a click that is even visible on the output level meters can not come from the Trinnov.

BTW, does it also do the same click when using the output fader's Mute button whith the fader at 0 dB?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

Interesting about the Mute button thing.. I did some tests, and sometimes it does clic, sometimes it doesn't. I made a new video to show it : https://drive.google.com/file/d/16-dDyJ … sp=sharing
(In the video I use the Software playback mute button and not the master fader one, but out of the video I tested with both mute buttons and the same result occurs)

This is my actual exact setup for monitoring :
Raydat SPDIF out -> Trinnov SPDIF in
Trinnov SPDIF out -> Lavry Blue SPDIF in (MDA824 module)
Lavry Blue analog out-> amplifier -> speakers

I'll try to connect the Raydat SPDIF out directly to the lavry now.. I think that should reproduce the test also and see if it has anything to do with the trinnov unit.

47 (edited by lebarde 2021-12-17 21:22:45)

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

I've tried the following :

Connecting the Raydat to the Lavry in SPDIF, completely removing the trinnov from the chain => Same issue
Connecting the Raydat to the Trinnov in SPDIF, completely removing the Lavry from the chain => Same issue
Both situations with each device as master or slave for the clock

hmm

Edit, after rethinking my test setup and putting everything back together, I redid a test by simply disconnecting the SPDIF input from the raydat and making the raydat as the master clock.. so the raydat surely doesn't get a signal from the other device.
Still confirming the problem..

48

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

I'm waiting for confirmation, but it seems a good idea now to replace your card to see if it is just that...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Clics, Crackles while changing volume on Totalmix

That could be cool to try for sure..
I'd have another option to test on this computer :
- I have my old 9652 card that I could plug with a PCI to PCIe adapter and see what it's like.
(if that makes sense, rather than replacing the card + shipping ..etc)

But, also, I'm off now for a tour in Mexico.. I'll have to continue this investigation in february... hmm
Will come back to this topic then.. thanks for your help so far.
Happy new year !