1 Topic by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-12-18 16:17:19)

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Topic: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Refined: see post #6.

What about a configuration parameter for autoreflevel to set the highest reflevel that the DAC may enter/use (per output)?

By this you could limit the output volume or prevent distortion for the inputs of a connected device without loosing the advantages of autoreflevel.

Currently the only alternatives would be to watch the display and to remember the max volume level. But this can become difficult at higher distances when using the remote.
Or to set a fix reflevel, but then you loose all features of autoreflevel to dynamically calculate reflevel for optimum SNR and dynamics.

What do you think about "highest reflevel" ?

I could immediately make use of it for the ADI-2 Pro FS in front of my HiFi not to overload the input of the preamp and also in my recording corner to limit the volume for active monitors and phones.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

ramses wrote:

What about a configuration parameter for autoreflevel to set the highest reflevel that the DAC may enter/use (per output)?

By this you could limit the output volume or prevent distortion for the inputs of a connected device without loosing the advantages of autoreflevel.

Currently the only alternatives would be to watch the display and to remember the max volume level. But this can become difficult at higher distances when using the remote.
Or to set a fix reflevel, but then you loose all features of autoreflevel to dynamically calculate reflevel for optimum SNR and dynamics.

What do you think about "highest reflevel" ?

I could immediately make use of it for the ADI-2 Pro FS in front of my HiFi not to overload the input of the preamp and also in my recording corner to limit the volume for active monitors and phones.

I did propose it before, instead of Volume LOCK, a ceiling value of the Auto Ref level, but (if I am not remember it wrong) MC said no....

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3 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2021-12-18 12:32:41)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

ramses wrote:

What about a configuration parameter for autoreflevel to set the highest reflevel that the DAC may enter/use (per output)?

By this you could limit the output volume or prevent distortion for the inputs of a connected device without loosing the advantages of autoreflevel.

... Or to set a fix reflevel, but then you loose all features of autoreflevel to dynamically calculate reflevel for optimum SNR and dynamics.

If you limit the range of Auto Reference Level it‘s advantage is lost, more or less.

There are 4 steps of Auto Reference Level, covering 18 (DAC) or 20 dB (Pro).
What‘s left if you put away one or two steps?

The perfect solution are passive attenuators, they don‘t cost much and gain a lot:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 42#p120442

KaiS's Website

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Found it ...

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 32#p174532

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

It would at least be better compared to use fix reflevels in 3 of 4 cases.
It would make setting of fix reflevels unnecessary (except when setting it to the lowest value) and be the better solution instead.

And regarding the use of attenuators, do I remember right that they should be positioned best in front of the other device instead at the output of the ADI-2 *?
XLR plug plus attenuator are quite long and in my case the distance to the wall is very close.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

My idea before is not cutting the Auto Ref ranges, but by firmware limit the volume knob turning up further at a preset value which fits the input of downstream equipment ....

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7 Reply by n00BRX (edited by n00BRX 2021-12-18 10:00:32)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

I would say a max volume cap for safety reason
Like -6dbu or -12dbu as max volume

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

ramses wrote:

It would at least be better compared to use fix reflevels in 3 of 4 cases.
It would make setting of fix reflevels unnecessary (except when setting it to the lowest value) and be the better solution instead.

And regarding the use of attenuators, do I remember right that they should be positioned best in front of the other device instead at the output of the ADI-2 *?
XLR plug plus attenuator are quite long and in my case the distance to the wall is very close.

Yes, that will stress the XLR socket at the cabinet.....

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9 Reply by anttipi (edited by anttipi 2021-12-18 12:31:59)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

n00BRX wrote:

I would say a max volume cap for safety reason
Like -6dbu or -12dbu as max volume

This. User adjustable max volume cap.

Because there is none at the moment, I'm forced to use a fixed negative volume

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Johannes AU wrote:
ramses wrote:

It would at least be better compared to use fix reflevels in 3 of 4 cases.
It would make setting of fix reflevels unnecessary (except when setting it to the lowest value) and be the better solution instead.

And regarding the use of attenuators, do I remember right that they should be positioned best in front of the other device instead at the output of the ADI-2 *?
XLR plug plus attenuator are quite long and in my case the distance to the wall is very close.

Yes, that will stress the XLR socket at the cabinet.....

XLRs are made to be stressed, don‘t worry.


In theory passive attenuators should be placed close to or at the destination device.

I.e. the hum cause by ground loops can be reduced this way, and high frequency loss caused by cable capacitance can be avoided.
Specially true with RCA attenuators and only with very long cables >20 m, longer than usually can be found in a home environment, so feel free to try different.


If you need a reference level limit your setup isn’t optimized, this cannot be fixed with a limited reference level.

The simplest warning of too high level is: it’s too loud!
Works like this if you follow my guide:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 21#p161721

KaiS's Website

11 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-12-18 13:56:46)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

KaiS wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:
ramses wrote:

It would at least be better compared to use fix reflevels in 3 of 4 cases.
It would make setting of fix reflevels unnecessary (except when setting it to the lowest value) and be the better solution instead.

And regarding the use of attenuators, do I remember right that they should be positioned best in front of the other device instead at the output of the ADI-2 *?
XLR plug plus attenuator are quite long and in my case the distance to the wall is very close.

Yes, that will stress the XLR socket at the cabinet.....

1- XLRs are made to be stressed, don‘t worry.

2- In theory passive attenuators should be placed close to or at the destination device.

3- The simplest warning of too high level is: it’s too loud!

To 1) in my two locations it's not possible and I will not start bending the cable or rub the cable over the walls.

To 2) thanks for confirming.

To 3) in one of the two cases it would simply make operation over distance easier as I wrote already.

The upper volume limit sounds even better as it is more general and more fine grained, very good idea.

I think it would be a very useful feature, not having to use fix reflevels when it's not possible to use attenuators. And the max volume could also be set much more fine grained compared to fix reflevels or attenuators with switches in 10dB steps.

Thanks to the 4-way reflevel design there will be plenty of useful max volume settings possible before you enter the lowest reflevel.

This  would also be useful in my case not to overload the E-600's input when auto reflevel is enabled.

All this makes operation from remote easier, you could even keep the volume + key pushed to quickly change to your highest listening level without having to watch ADI's display which can be challenging at distances

We also heard already somebody on forum (long time ago) telling, that he needs to make operation easier for family members who are no techies or audio needs. I think this might be also applicable to many other families even if ppl do not tell on forum.

I think that this would be an additional nice selling point for this device and most likely not too difficult or resource consuming to implement.

Would be nice from RME to consider this for the next round of changes, many thanks. As you can see there are use cases for this and interest from several forum members.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

12 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2021-12-21 14:19:47)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

My proposals wants to help you out in the light of the fact that:
it’s very unlikely this feature will make it into the ADI-2, at least due to FPGA memory constraints.


• You can ALWAYS use passive attenuators, I can’t imagine a situation where this is not possible.

Passive attenuators give perfect security against too high levels.
They are available 5 dB increments, so about the same granularity like Auto Reference Level.
i.e.:
https://www.thomann.de/de/shure_a15as.htm
https://im.static-thomann.de/pics/bdb/197430/7545767_800.jpg

• A general hint: angled XLR plugs exist if space is restricted.
If you buy in pro audio/musicians stores, high quality cables with those plugs (and all others) are usually available for very reasonable prices.
https://www.thomann.de/de/search_dir.ht … kelstecker

Tip: the straight Neutrik XLRs can be easily screw-on replaced with their angled cases, without soldering.
So you buy a cable with a straight (Neutrik) plug and an angled (Neutrik) connector. Then simply unscrew and exchange the outer housings, done, no soldering, contact insert is the same.

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13 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-12-18 15:55:53)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

> it’s very unlikely this feature will make it into the ADI-2, at least due to FPGA memory constraints.

It would simply be a practical solution.

I would leave it up to RME to take it as an opportunity. At least one can see quite a lot of interest.

Not everything which is being coded needs much space or performance and therefore we are getting still not only bugfixes but also new features.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Understand there is a memory constraint for such a new feature, but if we can set a max volume cap for line/phone/IEM, it will be a safety net to prevent a very very loud sound trigger but say malfunction of control or volume knob. And I think this feature will be welcome by a few user here

15 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2021-12-18 15:51:06)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

ramses wrote:

> it’s very unlikely this feature will make it into the ADI-2, at least due to FPGA memory constraints.

I would leave it up to RME to take it as an opportunity.

The FPGA performance / space limitations have mentioned since years.
But still we are getting more and more bugfixes and features if it fits.
Not everything which is being coded needs much space or performance.

It’s always up to RME to decide, of course.

I just repeated the refrain of the song I hear with most proposals.
If resources are limited there must be priorities.

But - for sure the current ADI-2 will not be the last model we will see in the future.

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Ramses,

Just a thought, but perhaps you could simply place attenuators at the Line Level inputs of your Active Monitors?   Works a Treat!

Because there is nothing between my RME, and my Monitors that's what I do.  Room aplently without adapters, etc, and all the while achieving the same end result.

Attenuators are handy little devices!

Welcome Home!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

17 Reply by Johannes AU (edited by Johannes AU 2021-12-19 13:36:10)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Curt962 wrote:

Ramses,

Just a thought, but perhaps you could simply place attenuators at the Line Level inputs of your Active Monitors?   Works a Treat!

Because there is nothing between my RME, and my Monitors that's what I do.  Room aplently without adapters, etc, and all the while achieving the same end result.

Attenuators are handy little devices!

Welcome Home!

Curt


If it can be accomplish by firmware, it is better than using additional hardware, right?

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18 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2021-12-19 13:45:45)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Johannes,

Hardware solutions such as this are quite inexpensive, very immediate, and require no development, etc resources.

I'm a patient sort, but do indeed LOVE instant gratification where possible smile 

Attenuators/Pads DO make this all possible, and concerns regarding SQ degradation have no real basis in fact.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

19 Reply by Johannes AU (edited by Johannes AU 2021-12-19 13:57:08)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Curt962 wrote:

Johannes,

Hardware solutions such as this are quite inexpensive, very immediate, and require no development, etc resources.

I'm a patient sort, but do indeed LOVE instant gratification where possible smile 

Attenuators/Pads DO make this all possible, and concerns regarding SQ degradation have no real basis in fact.

Curt


I cannot disagree with your points, and ramses's too smile

Now enjoying the music from wdav.

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Johannes AU wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

Johannes,

Hardware solutions such as this are quite inexpensive, very immediate, and require no development, etc resources.

I'm a patient sort, but do indeed LOVE instant gratification where possible smile 

Attenuators/Pads DO make this all possible, and concerns regarding SQ degradation have no real basis in fact.

Curt


I cannot disagree with your points, and ramses's too smile

Now enjoying the music from wdav.

Please do!  wink

Curt

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Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes
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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Curt962 wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

Johannes,

Hardware solutions such as this are quite inexpensive, very immediate, and require no development, etc resources.

I'm a patient sort, but do indeed LOVE instant gratification where possible smile 

Attenuators/Pads DO make this all possible, and concerns regarding SQ degradation have no real basis in fact.

Curt


I cannot disagree with your points, and ramses's too smile

Now enjoying the music from wdav.

Please do!  wink

Curt

I really enjoy it!

I always like radio broadcast, just let them select the music, listen to it while moving around the house, wonderful! Better than TV.

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22 Reply by Johannes AU (edited by Johannes AU 2021-12-19 14:57:07)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

ramses wrote:

Refined: see post #6.

What about a configuration parameter for autoreflevel to set the highest reflevel that the DAC may enter/use (per output)?

By this you could limit the output volume or prevent distortion for the inputs of a connected device without loosing the advantages of autoreflevel.

Currently the only alternatives would be to watch the display and to remember the max volume level. But this can become difficult at higher distances when using the remote.
Or to set a fix reflevel, but then you loose all features of autoreflevel to dynamically calculate reflevel for optimum SNR and dynamics.

What do you think about "highest reflevel" ?

I could immediately make use of it for the ADI-2 Pro FS in front of my HiFi not to overload the input of the preamp and also in my recording corner to limit the volume for active monitors and phones.


ramses, I will add my opinon here.

The DAC version was created by the request of HiFi users, I do not know if the hardware for firmware is different from the pro version, but  most likely the DAC firmware is smaller than the PRO, could be there will be "space" for your proposal, at least on the DAC, good for HiFi users to sit on sofa far away from the unit and control it with the remote without the risk overloading the input of downstream equipment, PRO user(s) normally working next to the unit, they can see the screen better and control it in a PRO way.....

While the RME auto ref is so good and sounds always good at every level, we do not need attenuators unless there is a mismatch between equipment which is out of the range RME auto ref can provide.

We have "Lock volume" already, we just want to know if another function can be add, which stop the volume knob turning up signal from being read by the board at a pre-set value.

My humble Yamaha WXA-50 has two very useful settings (the range is -80dB to -0dB):
1. Turn on volume, it will always reset to that preset value no matter how low or high you are listening before. I set it at -55dB attenuation.
2. Max. volume, no matter how much you turn up the volume (an encoder), it will stay there. I set it at -20dB attenution.

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23 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2021-12-19 15:42:33)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Here I go again Johannes.. wink

Your proposal may work in a situation where all program levels were the same.  In the real world however they are most assuredly not, and a built in Vol level limit will most likely cause no end of difficulties, and button pushing in order to continuously re-adapt your system to the wide range of source material levels.  Trust me, a modern production will be at a much higher level than one produced in 1960. Where now do you set the perfect level?  Because of this, there really is no "One Size Fits All" solution aside from perhaps some form of Volume Normalization that would surely trigger Panic, and Outrage amongst the user group.

Attenuators will themselves to a degree limit the Max levels that can be sent downstream the old fashioned way.  They simply LOWER the Levels. 

I use Auto-Ref, and Pads.  Levels are such as they are in order to accomodate the largest cross section of recordings/streams that I have.  If Katy Perry is getting too loud?  I don't change attenuators, I simply turn down the Volume to a more pleasing level!  That seems to work quite well.  Remarkably easy too!  (My Vintage RME Remote has a Vol button, and my Ears tell me how much adjustment is needed wink  )

Another $0.02...

Curt

*Late Note:   We never wish to be overly-critical of useful discussion, and exchange of ideas.  There reaches a point in my mind however where the quest for absolute optimization of any/all material, or associated equipment via some automated means is without merit, or connection to reality. 

Just saying.

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

24 Reply by Johannes AU (edited by Johannes AU 2021-12-19 15:52:23)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Curt962 wrote:

Here I go again Johannes.. wink

Your proposal may work in a situation where all program levels were the same.  In the real world however they are most assuredly not, and a built in Vol level limit will most likely cause no end of difficulties, and button pushing in order to continuously re-adapt your system to the wide range of source material levels.  Trust me, a modern production will be at a much higher level than one produced in 1960. Where now do you set the perfect level?  Because of this, there really is no "One Size Fits All" solution aside from perhaps some form of Volume Normalization that would surely trigger Panic, and Outrage amongst the user group.

Attenuators will themselves to a degree limit the Max levels that can be sent downstream the old fashioned way.  They simply LOWER the Levels. 

I use Auto-Ref, and Pads.  Levels are such as they are in order to accomodate the largest cross section of recordings/streams that I have.  If Katy Perry is getting too loud?  I don't change attenuators, I simply turn down the Volume to a more pleasing level!  That seems to work quite well.  Remarkably easy too!  (My Vintage RME Remote has a Vol button, and my Ears tell me how much adjustment is needed wink  )

Another $0.02...

Curt


You are always welcome, my friend smile

I do not mean one size fits all, instead an upper limit to prevent overload another equipment.

As you said, we can always turn it down, ramses and me never ask to stop the turning down function (volume lock already serve this), what we mean and propose is when it reached a preset value, it cannot turn up (unless disable this function), like ESP of a motor car, it is a safety net... I wish you can understand my poor english .... tongue

In my application, if I turn the RME to max, which is above 2.4V to RCA, and keep my Yamaha at -70dB, I do not know it will cook the Yamaha or not.

RME has safety features, the dimming of output level and gradually going up when we change output or headphones, and the latest Digital DC protection .... we just want an additional ESP (if possible)....

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

You responded so quick Johannes.   Re-Read my "Late Note" added to the above.   The user needs to play a role in the matter, and "Insurance Policies" in the form of Firmware Revisions would be challenging.  Consider if you will, all the Safety/Protection systems that have been designed into modern automobiles, yet people kill themselves daily in these marvels of "safety", while relying on some "advance" to save them from their own inattentiveness in the driver's seat.   This applies equally to audio gear IMO.

Food for Thought yes?

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

26 Reply by Johannes AU (edited by Johannes AU 2021-12-19 16:24:24)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Curt962 wrote:

You responded so quick Johannes.   Re-Read my "Late Note" added to the above.   The user needs to play a role in the matter, and "Insurance Policies" in the form of Firmware Revisions would be challenging.  Consider if you will, all the Safety/Protection systems that have been designed into modern automobiles, yet people kill themselves daily in these marvels of "safety", while relying on some "advance" to save them from their own inattentiveness in the driver's seat.   This applies equally to audio gear IMO.

Food for Thought yes?

Curt

Got it.

Yes, many drivers not following/obey traffic signs and warnings, even the stop sign.

We discuss this particular proposal only, not a debate, never ever intended to offend anyone.

Remember at early days of my RME dac, how many stupid questions I asked? I can say I am less stupid only, I am learning every single day, it is YOUTH (quote: Samuel Ullman)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

This is what happens when there is an attempt by anyone to "Consumer Proof" a Product.   big_smile

https://i.ibb.co/YDTbsK2/IMG-20211213-111050-966.jpg

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

28 Reply by anttipi (edited by anttipi 2021-12-19 16:59:32)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

With small kids fooling around the house (or someone simply doing a mistake), a max volume cap would certainly come in handy. I can understand why it will never be considered a core feature though.

I've taped the volume pot in place on my amp for this very reason. One set of speakers almost "blew up" once, lol.

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

I would certainly welcome a volume limiter because why not? Seems a no-brainer to implement and would add to the useful feature list of this unit.

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

anttipi wrote:

With small kids fooling around the house (or someone simply doing a mistake), a max volume cap would certainly come in handy. I can understand why it will never be considered a core feature though.

I've taped the volume pot in place on my amp for this very reason. One set of speakers almost "blew up" once, lol.

When a child is born, it brings joy to the family, but sometimes a little bit trouble, at least it proves the kids are active, energetic and healthy, the only worry is that sudden turned up volume will hurt their ears ... I saw kids enjoy poking the tweeters too ....

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Johannes AU wrote:

I saw kids enjoy poking the tweeters too ....

Mine went straight for the woofer before he was tall enough to reach the tweeter.

32 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2021-12-20 18:37:03)

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Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Oh Boy!

Almost 40yrs ago when my eldest "download" came to be...

The Pediatricians advice to me in protecting my HiFi was to simply leave it alone.

The Child will quickly become un-interested in that which is within his grasp.

My most vulnerable  Turntable then was on the highest shelf, and I had no problems.  Objects that are most accessible often do not appeal to Little Ones!  They WANT what Daddy said they can't touch!   wink

The RME is unique in the sense that with Spectrum Analyzer dancing brightly...it is a Magnet for attention, and no Human can resist it.

Simply placing your RME on the High Shelf, well out of reach of curious little fingers will do much!

Been there!   Done that!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes
  • From: Hongkong
  • Registered: 2021-06-30
  • Posts: 720

Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

ramses wrote:

It would at least be better compared to use fix reflevels in 3 of 4 cases.
It would make setting of fix reflevels unnecessary (except when setting it to the lowest value) and be the better solution instead.

And regarding the use of attenuators, do I remember right that they should be positioned best in front of the other device instead at the output of the ADI-2 *?
XLR plug plus attenuator are quite long and in my case the distance to the wall is very close.

If your proposal is not successful, I found this: https://www.cabletechniques.com/lopro-xlr-mini-xlr
could be it is another solution to shorten the plug, a low profile female to a normal male short extension cable.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

34 Reply by Johannes AU (edited by Johannes AU 2021-12-22 07:35:51)

  • From: Hongkong
  • Registered: 2021-06-30
  • Posts: 720

Re: proposal highest reflevel, new: max level

Read the manual 2.9, the MRC remote button "VOL" remains the same function, while short press it serves the same function as Mute.

Can the "VOL" short press program as, say Max Level as per ramses's proposal in future FW, ?

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen