Hi Ramses.

Thank you so much for your reply!

Yesterday was a sad day when I uninstalled the RME drivers for the first time in 20+ years..

Due to the channel-count loss over ADAT and the need to record at 96k on the odd occasion I had to find another solution. Having been on the Lynx converters for years I decided to upgrade to the Lynx Hilo and Aurora(n)24, both on TB3.

My current setup is:
W10 / Nuendo
Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra Motherboard
Gigabyte Titan Ridge PCIe TB3 card (this card has two TB3 ports)

Everything is running smoothly, which is great. Also, at a later stage, should someone want to use one of the UAD TB3 setups it'll be an easy switch/addition.

But, I miss having the best drivers in the world running the show for me. Nothing compares to the RME drivers. The way your drivers integrate everything is unsurpassed! Also, the loss of the complete dependability of my RayDat is still scary at the moment. That's why I would prefer to have a RME/PCIe/TB3 card in my machine facilitating communication with my PC. 

Cheers,
Robin

"A real dream setup from RME would be UFX+ and the M32 Pro AD and M32 Pro DA."

Yes, that would be my dream setup!!!!!!

Feel free to post your questions here.

Robin,

I hope it's ok for Joost that you discuss his suggestion here in the RME forum. I think Joost surely had a certain idea to balance features and costs for you and based on the requirements that you told him. For me this information is not available and I even do not know your budget for such a setup.

So I will simply open my mind and will try suggest a setup to you that gives a lot of options now and for the future.
At the end of the day you need to decide based on your requirements, priorities and last but not least the available budget.

You have the choice between the following products which all have their special feature set. The smaller interfaces I left out intentionally (like MADIface USB, which is an option, but I would not plan not too minimalistic for the basis of your recording solution if I were you).

1. Recording Interface
    Note: MADIface XT might be an option if you need USB3 and 3 MADI busses.
    My personal preference is either a PCIe based solution in a PC case or something in 19" format.

1.1 HDSPe MADI FX (PCIe)
      I had this card here for a test, you can see my review here, see also the PDF document for download:
      https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … Pro-FS-BE/

Some features at a glance:
- PSU redundancy if your PC should have two PSU
- the only RME PCIe card with FX chip
- Optimized ASIO driver which reduces the system load by deactivating audio channels currently not in use
- The redundancy mode SRO (Seamless Redundancy Operation) treats the card as single MADI input device.
   In case the main input fails, the card quickly uses one of the other two MADI input options.
   The SRO mode performs without audio interruption and is loss minimized (to only a few samples).
- driver allows to mirror the output of MADI1 to the other two MADI outputs which can be used for 1-2 backup recordings
  - optional daughter card: Opto-X to get a 3rd optical MADI bus
  - analog output for phones
  - AES I/O to e.g. connect ADI-2 Pro FS R BE for enhancing the monitoring section
  - If Windows: Global Record can be used as backup recording
  - you can connect a lot to 3 MADI busses if you need it and the good thing is that you still can route any input/sw playback to any output. If you would connect 2-3 of the same interface you can't route channels between recording interfaces without using other I/O to route channels through as a workaround

1.2 UFX+ (USB3, TB, USB2)

I am using this interface since long and it's really very nice with it's rich feature set. See this information about my setup:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … -DURec-DE/

Features at a glance:
- standalone operation possible
- if you do not require three MADI busses then the UFX+ has the richest feature set
- many options to connect to PC and Laptop: USB3, Thunderbolt, USB2 (without MADI playbacks)
- standalone operation possible
- DURec for backup recordings
- If Windows: Global record for backup recordings available as well
- already two strong phones outputs
- 4 excellent Mic inputs that can be used as line and instrument inputs and for connecting a talkback mic
- AES and 2x ADAT I/O to connect e.g. ADI-2 Pro FS R BE to enhance the monitoring section

2. As AD/DA converter

2.1 M-1610 Pro
  unequal count of inputs and outputs), mix of TRS and DB-25 plugs, phones output, ADAT outputs,
  reference level can be set per port, redundant LAN port for AVB, SFP port for MADI

2.2 M-32 Pro AD and M32- Pro DA
  Level meters per port could be very useful to monitor levels from distance, equal count of inputs / outputs
  reference level can be set per port, no redundant LAN port for AVB

3. Optional: ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

I am using these AD/DA converter since day one. Phantastic product. Rich and unique feature set, IMHO best DAC on the market, quality / price / feature wise.
The ADI-2 Pro is very useful by it's 4 reference levels in combination with auto reflevel feature. By this you have optimum SNR and dynamics over a range of 20dB.
You should use attenuators to solve level mismatches towards your monitors and so that you can make best use of auto reflevel. These attenuators are switchable and very flexible (-10, -20, -30 dB).
https://www.thomann.de/de/jts_ma_123.htm

As enhancement for your monitoring section. You can find a lot of useful information in these two blog articles:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … ses-EN-DE/
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … our-Setup/

4. Optional: ARC USB

For remote controlling TM FX. Very useful.

HDSPe MADI FX is a very nice card but needs a PC. The optimizing driver is also very nice, which only allocated driver resource in blocks of 8 ports. If at least 1 port of the 8 is in use, then resources for the whole block of 8 are being allocated.

On the other hand the UFX+ is more flexible in use and does not require a driver which optimizes resources, as you have only 1 MADI bus. The question is, do you need 3 MADI busses or not ?
The UFX+ may give you more benetifs in every day use. You could also connect it to laptops or operate it standalone and even connect the ARC USB to it in standalone mode.
Gives you also Mic inputs for e.g. talkback Mic and Instr inputs if needed.
DURec is extremely nice for getting backup recordings.

The technical data of ports for M-1610 Pro and M-32 are equal according to the technical section in the manual.
So its more a question, what is more useful to you. Equal number of inputs or outputs or not.
If you want to connect many external gear then of course it makes sense to have as many ouputs as inputs ...
Also the colored display with labels could be nice to monitor ports from the distance, if something turns red, it has your attention. But well, this has also a price to be payed.

Although you have very nice inputs and outputs with the M-1610 Pro and M-32 Pro AD and DA you would get additional benefits when getting ADI-2 Pro FS R BE for the monitoring section in terms of monitors and phones. So I would definitively think about to include them. Gives you also a SRC (sample rate converter) which might be useful if you want to connect devices with fix clock settings and which can only act as clock master.

I think the following setup could also be put to discussion:
- UFX+                     €2799 (Thomann bundle with ARC USB)
- M-32 Pro AD          €3589
- M-32 Pro DA          €3749
- ADI-2 Pro FS R BE €1699
- ARC USB                included in the Thomann bunfle, see above
============================================
                               €11836

And if you do not have DB-25 connectors of the "other side" of AD/DA converter, then you need a few patchbays.
M-1610 Pro has at least a few TRS ports at the back of the unit.

A) Short overview about the proposed setup:

PC or Laptop or stand-alone
|
| (USB3 or Thunderbolt)
|
UFX+-------AES/ADAT---> ADI-2 Pro FS R BE --->monitors/phones
++++                                 "                 [SRC] <--- optional devices with fix SR and clock like e.g. DAT recorder
| | | +--------USB----------> USB Stick (DURec)
| | +----------USB----------> ARC USB
| |
| | (MADI)
| |
| + M-32 Pro AD (up to double speed for all 32ch) alternatively 1-4x M-1610 (for single/double speed)
| |
| + M-32 Pro DA (up to double speed for all 32ch)
| |
++

Clock master: UFX+
Clock slave: ADI-2 Pro FS R BE (through AES, ADAT), M32-Pro AD/DA (through MADI)

Alternative M-1610 Pro:
If you like you can replace the M-32 Pro AD and DA by one, two or even four M-1610 pro. Thats fine for single speed.
And in double speed you have again 32x D/A converters, then simply do not use some of the inputs.
You can also start with 1 device and expand later.

Possible little advantage to use M32-Pro AD/DA over M-1610 Pro:
There is no MADI feature like delay compensation available for the newer MADI/AVB capable devices.
When using M32-Pro AD/DA then each of the 32 inputs and outputs will get audio at the same time.
If multiple (2 or four) M-1610 are being used on one MADI bus, then you need to create a MADI ring by connecting one device after the other in a serial / ring fashion. This adds a little latency when audio is being transferred from one to the other device in the MADI "chain" of devices.
At double speed 6 samples per additional unit, but this is a very low value, I only wanted to mention it for completeness.

In fact at the beginnings of MADI delay compensation has been created when e.g. 8 MADI devices have been connected one after the other on one MADI bus. At that time also converter latency was a little higher.
With only 1 or 2 M-1610 Pro in a row and with new faster converter you can possibly fully ignore this, I only wanted to mention it for completeness.

Maybe for this or other reasons Joost proposed HDSPe MADI FX and to distribute the two M-1610 two two busses and then you can even record in quad speed.

So this would be another alternative:

Option B: HDSPe MADI FX based (either M32-Pro or M-1610 Pro

- HDSPe MADI FX     €1489
- M-32 Pro AD          €3589
- M-32 Pro DA          €3749
- ADI-2 Pro FS R BE €1699
- ARC USB                €  129
============================================
                               €10655

- HDSPe MADI FX     €1489
- M1610 Pro             €2599
- M1610 Pro             €2599
- ADI-2 Pro FS R BE €1699
- ARC USB                €  129
============================================
                               €8515

PC (or even Apple with TB expansion cabinet)
+ +---- USB<--->ARC USB
|
| (PCIe)
|
HDSPe MADI FX+-------AES---> ADI-2 Pro FS R BE --->monitors/phones
++                                              "                 [SRC] <--- optional devices with fix SR and clock like e.g. DAT recorder
| |
| +- MADI BUS 1: M-1610 #1 (up to quad speed) or M-32 Pro AD (up to double speed)
+--  MADI BUS 2: M-1610 #2 (up to quad speed) or M-32 Pro DA (up to double speed)

EDITED: MSI drivers at the end

Hi Robin,

regarding Latency and stability.

In this  blog article about the UFX+
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … 8-RME-UFX/

you will find also a comparison sheet of different RME solutions that I owned / checked:

As you can see very similar outstanding performance.
Least latencies you get with thunderbolt.
But if USB3 works well for you, then 3m cable length might be more beneficial to you compared to 2m with thunderbolt.
Or you would need to get optical solutions to extend thunderbolt.
BTW, thunderbolt is external PCIe in case you do not know so very similar to PCIe.

In this blog article you can see, that the "performance" of an UFX+ and RayDAT based solution is on the same good level.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … cks-de-en/
I created a 400 track Cubase project with 2 Steinberg VST as insert in each track and a few in the stereo sum. So ~800 VSTs  in this project in total. There was no audio loss when even using the lowest ASIO buffer size for single (44.1) and double speed (96 kHz): 32 and 64 samples.
Of course I wouldn't recommomend to always use the smallest ASIO buffersize. And of course I do not have such monster projects.
But I needed such an "artificial" project to come close to the edge of my computers capabilities where audio loss is more likely simply as a benchmark for my system to check, whether my system is still healthy after Windows upgrades and/or driver changes or after installation of additional tools / programs.

My system btw after 7y of operation, some upgrades: win7 to win10, better CPU, GPU, optimized everything fow low noise and low latency: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … mponenten/

Should you have issues with your chipset / USB3 you have still the option to use thunderbolt or you can use another PCIe extension card for USB. The Sonnet cards with FL1100 chip are running well. I have the card with 4xUSB3 FL1100 chips on board giving me 4x the full USB3 bandwidth, but this card with FL1100 chips is not available anymore.

But you can still get the much cheaper card where the USB3 chipset is being shared between the 4 ports.
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/alle … 4port.html
Then you need only a PCIe x1 PCIe socket, which is easier than to find a x4 socket with four PCIe lanes.
Then only connect the UFX+ to it and maybe the ADI-2 Pro for firmware upgrades only. Audio for ADI-2 Pro through AES or ADAT as you like.
Regarding drivers for such a FL1100 based card. Drivers are already included in Win10, even with the more efficient working interrupt model called "MSI" (message signaled interrupts).

It's simply thunderbolt, 1 and 2 are plug compatible, rest needs an adapter.
Optical, longer links, galvanic isolation. OM3 and OM4 multimode cables are possible to use.
Patchcables you get up to 50m length.
Cable length may be up to 2km between each of the devices in a MADI chain.
On special order you could even get single mode for up to 10km between devices (this is laser).

You're welcome :-) Updated below ...

Updated:

You're welcome :-)

Don't forget the RME SFP which also includes MM cable (2m) and SC/LC adapter and I would get proactively a Sonnet Allegro Card with FL1100EX chip to be able to isolate UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro from the rest of your USB infrastructure of your system if needed. Who knows how long these cards will be available ...

So according to your last feedback we have now this very nice setup:

- UFX+                                                           €2799 (Thomann bundle with ARC USB)
- ARC USB                                                      included in the Thomann bundle, see above
- M1610 Pro                                                   €2599
- ADI-2 Pro FS R BE                                        €1699
- Sonnet Allegro (USB3-4PM-E)                      €    55
- RME MADI SFP Module Multi Mode               €     88 (with 2m multimode cable and SC/LC adapter)
=====================================================================
                                                                     €7240

PC or Laptop or stand-alone
|
| (USB3 or Thunderbolt)
|
UFX+---------AES/ADAT---> ADI-2 Pro FS R BE --->monitors/phones
++++
| | | +--------USB----------> USB Stick (DURec)
| | +----------USB----------> ARC USB (alternatively: connect it to the PC)
| |
| | (MADI, optical OM3/4)
| |
| + M-1610 Pro (for single/double/quad speed)
| |
++

List of I/O (left out USB and alike intentionally):
Analog IN:          8x UFX+, 16x M-1610 Pro, 2x ADI-2 Pro FS R BE= 26x
Analog OUT:       8x UFX+,   8x M-1610 Pro, 2x ADI-2 Pro FS R BE= 18x
Phones:             2x UFX+,   1x M-1610 Pro, 2x ADI-2 Pro FS R BE=   5x
Mic/Inst:             4x UFX+,   0x M-1610 Pro, 0x ADI-2 Pro FS R BE=   4x
ADAT IN:              2x UFX+,   0x M-1610 Pro, 1x ADI-2 Pro FS R BE=  3x (UFX+/ADI-2 Pro FS R BE: 1x optical SPDIF)
ADAT OUT:           2x UFX+,   4x M-1610 Pro, 1x ADI-2 Pro FS R BE=  7x (UFX+/ADI-2 Pro FS R BE: 1x optical SPDIF)
AES I/O:              1x UFX+,   0x M-1610 Pro, 1x ADI-2 Pro FS R BE=  2x
Coax SPDIF I/O:  0x UFX+,   0x M-1610 Pro, 1x ADI-2 Pro FS R BE=  1x
MIDI I/O:             2x UFX+
MADI optical:       1x UFX+,   1x M-1610 Pro, 0x ADI-2 Pro FS R BE=  2x                 
MADI coax:          1x UFX+ (shared with WC), 1x M-1610 Pro       =  2x

Supported Reference Levels (phones excluded):
UFX+ IN                      : -10 dBV(*) +   13/19 dBu
UFX+ OUT                   :                   +2/13/19 dBu (1-8), +24 dBu (XLR 1/2)
M-1610 IN                   :                   +   13/19/24 dBu
M-1610 OUT                :                   +   13/19/24 dBu
ADI-2 Pro FS R BE IN   :                   +4/13/19/24 dBu
ADI-2 Pro FS R BE OUT:                   +4/13/19/24 dBu

(*) A ref level of -10 dBV can be achieved by using +4 dBu and adding 9dB of gain with the gain knob in TM FX channel settings, see manual ch 19.1.

You're welcome ;-) Good week to you too, lets hope delivery will be fast for you

It might be able to chain devices and monitors on thunderbolt, but there is no communication possible between UFX+ and Lynx over thunderbolt. If your Lynx has digital ports like ADAT or MADI, then you can connect it this way to the UFX+.
Then you load in the DAW the MADIface driver, access the UFX+ with all ports and the communication to other devices would then by over the UFX+'s I/O ports. The Lynx would be clock slave then by either getting clock from UFX+ through a digital input or by using Word Clock, if supported on Lynx.

I have no idea whether the UFX+ has been changed in terms of chips.
But even if  .. the converter chips alone simply perform a transparent AD and DA conversion and have nothing like a "signature sound". The converters being chosen by RME would apply to the documented specs and thats it.