Topic: Recording a live band with UFX

I want to be able to use my UFX to multitrack record my band while providing a personal mix for each member of the band using headphones with a click track and cue track as well as any mix they may want to customize.  Is that possible to do with a UFX?

In my previous band, we were using a PreSonus system and it worked well for that task.  Trying to recreate a similar setup with the UFX.

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

Yes, TM FX gives you most flexibility for that.
The TM FX window has three rows
- top      - HW inputs
- middle - SW playback channels (from PC/application)
- bottom - HW outputs

Each HW Output has an individual submix.

In submix mode you select an HW output, like e.g. the phones output.
The routing to that output you can directly see from the fader positions of top and /middle row (HW inputs / SW playbacks).

Even smarter, on the right hand side there is a small button "sub", if you activate it, then you only see HW inputs and SW playbacks, that route audio to the selected HW output.

TM FX gives you the great flexibility to route audio either from
- HW inputs in near real-time or
- SW playbacks with a little more latency because of the additional transport through USB

Audio from one or more SW playback channel(s) could be a backing track.
You can organize your DAW project even in a way, to break audio down in peaces to use different outputs for e.g. vocalists, soloists, bass, drums, etc.
In TM FX audio will not be send directly to the physical output of your recording device, audio will 1st of all show up in the middle row under SW playbacks.
And now the magic happens, now you can set for each HW output (bottom row) the routing/submix individually by simply selecing the HW output and then turning the faders of SW playbacks as you like. The vocalist may want to hear himself louder, the bass man maybe his bass louder, etc.

If you have such a backing track and record some more tracks with the vocalist you can route the backing track to him as he prefers. But the monitoring of his recorded voice he should get without latency, so in this case you select the phones output of the vocalist in the bottom row and turn up the fader of HW inputs. By this you route the Mic signal directly to the phones with near-zero latency (only a little latency of the converters, but without the full RTL (round trip latency) over USB that can be big depending on the ASIO buffersize being used.

In short, TM FX is so much better in terms of creating submixes compared to any other products.

You can aösp save and recall the used settings in 8 Snapshots on the right hand side, to get the proper settings for recording, mixing, mastering.

There are also 30 Workspace Quick select slots where you can save the while workspace and recall it with ALT-0, ALT-1 ...
This gives you 8 x 30 = 240 routings and 10 Workspaces (with 8 Snapshots = 80 routings) you can recall by using the keyboard combination ALT-0 .. ALT-9.

Best is to consult TM FX training videos, the manual or also my blog article with a good basic setup.
The relevant information you find in this sticky:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=34394

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

Wow.  Thank Ramses.  This is a great help.   Since there are only 2 headphone outputs on the UFX, do you know if I can send submixes to any hardware output to be used for headphones?  I have a band of 5 so I would like everyone to have their own set of headphone mix.

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

Line out >> headphone amp >> happy bandmate smile

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

Thank you.  I think a light bulb just went off.  Thats exciting. 

What do you of the Behringer HA8000 V2 8-channel Headphone Mixing/Distribution Amplifier?  Would that be a decent companion to the UFX?

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

not familiar with that headphone amp but it looks like it will do the job. wow, 8 independent inputs. maybe I'll eventually have to get one smile

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

Regarding the HA8000 v2.
If you want more than two different mixes, then this device offers a direct input per channel (8).
In this case I would expand with a D/A converter with 8 ports and then connect the ports to each of the direct inputs.

  + phones 1
  + phones 2
  |
+UFX---->-------------------------------------Ferrofish Pulse 16 MX          Behringer HA8000v2
|                                                               |                         +--------->  phones 3
+--------<---- MADI (OM3/4 up to 2km)----+                        +--------->  ...
                                                                                          +--------->  ...
                                                                                          +--------->  ...
                                                                                          +--------->  ...
                                                                                          +--------->  ...
                                                                                          +--------->  ...
                                                                                          +--------->  phones 10

In total 10 phones ports with individual submixes: UFX+ 2, HA8000 8 -> 10
Ultra flexible by using MADI, max fiber length up to 2km between each of the devices in a MADI ring.
You can even add a 2nd HA8000 to the Ferrofish supporting in total 18 phones outputs with individual submixes.
Or you use the other analog inputs / outputs for other purposes .. to connect synthesizers and what not ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

Interesting.  I didn’t know I would need a A/D converter.  Do the analog outputs of the UFX not produce a signal that can be used directly connected to the direct input of one of the 8 channels on the HA8000? Please excuse my ignorance but if I could connect one of those UFX outputs to a studio monitor and hear a signal, why couldn’t I connect that output directly to a headphone amp and hear it thru headphones? Would it not work at all or is it just not great quality?

9 (edited by ramses 2022-03-29 09:57:52)

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

You do not need. But then you can feed the HA8000 only 2 different submixes.
But as the device has for each of the 8 phones ports a direct input, you can put the DA converter in between.
Then you can create 8 individual submixes either for the ADAT or MADI outputs towards DA converter
and then each of the phones channels / musician on the HA (which is connected analog to the DA converter) gets its individual submix. If you have a larger band or guests, when everybody can raise his wishes to hear himself louder and all the others louder or more silent as required / preferred.
As I mentioned, you need this only if you need more than two different submixes for the 8 channels.
And you are free whether to use ADAT or MADI for the connection.
Depends on your personal preferences / requirements whether
- you want to have the ADAT / AES ports free for other usage or
- whether you need the higher cable length of MADI for placement
According to the standard:
- ADAT 10m (also 15m usually work)
- MADI up to 2km between each of the MADI devices in a MADI chain / serial bus

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

Oh.  Is it not possible to connect an audio cable directly from UFX Analog 1 to HA8000 Channel 1 Direct Input, UFX AN2 to HA8000 CH2 DI, AN3 > Ch3, and so one and so forth to get 8 different sub mixes?  Obviously, sending a mono signal for each channel on the UFX but I think a mono mix would suffice for band members.

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

Of course this is possible and the normal way if you do not want to have 8 individual submixes on the HA8000, but instead of this only two different ones. Please re-read my posting again, I think I described the intention clearly, thanks.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

12 (edited by bsfreq 2022-03-29 15:38:46)

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

Gabaghoul wrote:

Oh.  Is it not possible to connect an audio cable directly from UFX Analog 1 to HA8000 Channel 1 Direct Input, UFX AN2 to HA8000 CH2 DI, AN3 > Ch3, and so one and so forth to get 8 different sub mixes?  Obviously, sending a mono signal for each channel on the UFX but I think a mono mix would suffice for band members.

Of course it is. Ramses maybe thought of some different interface here? But UFX has 8 analog outs + the 2 headphone outs, and you can send different submixes to each one if you want to. Either stereo mixes with 2xTS to TRS cables, or mono mixes with TRS to TRS balanced cables, as you suggested.
So you could even send two master stereo mixes + 8 independent mono mixes (6 if your main outs are already in use) or 4 stereo mixes, or any combination of these..

The advantage of using an adat D/A in between, is that you can have longer cable run to your headphone amp using a single adat cable, (+ short cables from D/A to headphone amp) instead of using multiple long TRS cables. However if your headphone amp is sitting next to your UFX, then there's no need at all.

Fireface UFX+ | Fireface UFX | Babyface Pro | 12Mic

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

bsfreq wrote:
Gabaghoul wrote:

Oh.  Is it not possible to connect an audio cable directly from UFX Analog 1 to HA8000 Channel 1 Direct Input, UFX AN2 to HA8000 CH2 DI, AN3 > Ch3, and so one and so forth to get 8 different sub mixes?  Obviously, sending a mono signal for each channel on the UFX but I think a mono mix would suffice for band members.

Of course you can. Ramses maybe thought of some different interface here?

Maybe we have only a little misunderstanding.

The HA8000 v2 has 8 independend phones preamps with a "direct input" (stereo, TRS plug) to be able to give each preamp an individual submix. As we know we need two analog outputs to form a stereo signal.
So we need 16 analog outputs to be able to get individual submixes for each of the eight HA8000's phones outputs.

Does the UFX have 16 analog outputs ? No, only 8.
I would reserve the two phones outputs for phones.
I would reserve 2-4 analog outputs for "Main Out" and perhaps "Main Out B" if you have.
So you have only 4 or 6 analog outputs free on the device.

Enough to use the usual Mix A / Mix B functionality of the HA8000 v2.
But what I wanted to point out is, that you can also have individual submixes for each of the phones outputs:
- 2 on the UFX+
- 8 on the HA8000 v2.

For this you need to expand the UFX with additional analog outputs.
A Ferrofish is excellent, as it gives you exactly 16 ports for this purpose to get 8 individual stereo submixes on the HA8000.

You can connect the ferrofish either via ADAT or if you have an UFX+ via MADI.
The MADI version of the Ferrofish is not that more expensive.
MADI has the advantage, that you can use longer cables, so that you have some freedom to place the HA8000 v2 central in the recording room for phones and should your machine room be more than ~10m away.

I hope this clarifies.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

14 (edited by ramses 2022-03-29 16:06:23)

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

Then you can do the following placement:

Control room-------------------------------------------||--------------- Recording room

UFX+ ---------------------------- 2xADAT (up to ~15m) --------------- Ferrofish----- p01-TS-(mono)
                                             or MADI (up to 2km)                                     ----- p02-TS-(mono)+---TRS-- Phones1 (indiv. submix)
                                                                                                                   ....                                         .....
                                                                                                                   ---- p15-TS-(mono)
                                                                                                                   -----p16-TS-(mono)+---TRS--Phones8 (indiv. submix)

If the Ferrofish D/A converter is placed at a central place in the middle of the musicians, then both, the
- 2xmono/1xstereo cables between Ferro and HA8000 and
- phones cables from HA8000 to phones/musicians
do not be too long ...

These were the ideas behind it
- more individual submixes
- better placement of components (if needed / wanted)

BTW, if you want to record in double speed, then you will need MADI, otherwise you do not get 16 channels to the Ferro.
UFX+ has only two ADAT channels, thats only 8 channels @88.2/96.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

15 (edited by bsfreq 2022-03-29 17:26:47)

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

Yes, but Gabaghoul mentioned that he has a band of 5, they are fine with mono mixes, and asked if it's possible to send direct mixes from UFX analog outs to HA8000.

It's possible, and of course it limits the the number for other analog connections from UFX. The OP didn't mention how many outputs he needs for other use, so he might just be fine without having to purchase extra gear.. You CAN send more than two independent mixes from UFX analog outs. That's just what I wanted to point out.

BTW, connecting TRS balanced mono to unbalanced stereo will not work properly with standard TRS to TRS cables, so you might be better off using stereo outputs with 2xTS to single TRS cables. You would still get 5 separate headphone mixes. (2 x UFX headphone outs, 3 stereo outs from 6 x TRS outputs of UFX and still have main outs free for monitors.)

Fireface UFX+ | Fireface UFX | Babyface Pro | 12Mic

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

Thanks for all the help guys.  I really appreciate it.  I think we’ll start simply at first and if its working for us, I’ll opt for the Ferrofish to take us to the next level.  Very exciting stuff.

Re: Recording a live band with UFX

bsfreq wrote:

Yes, but Gabaghoul mentioned that he has a band of 5, they are fine with mono mixes, and asked if it's possible to send direct mixes from UFX analog outs to HA8000.

At the beginning he didn't mention mono mix, but then my proposal was already out.
I only made additions to make things clear. It appeared to me that the purpose for my proposal was not understood.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13