Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Crackling noise and more crackling noise. I started this thread and I kind of gave up on the issue since I have two audio interfaces so I have Cubase use the FF400 and everything else my trusty Kore audio interface (which by the way can operate as a multiclient audio interface).

Yes, I reinstalled XP and the bare minimum to test the Fireface 400 and still got the same problems: I cannot run ASIO multiclient. If Cubase is using playback channels 1+2 only (i.e. all other channels have been explicitly disabled) I get crackling noise if I try to get another application to use playback channels 3+4, and I mean 3+4 exclusively.

Slightly off-topic (but not totally unrelated), I have noticed that, for example, in Winamp the playback channels appear as:

"Fireface 400 Analog (1+2) MME (emulated)"
"Fireface 400 Analog (1+2)"

in the list of available playback channels. I always choose the second one because MME (emulated) is totally unusable, producing lots of crackling noises (at least on my system). Does anyone know what driver is used when I select "Fireface 400 Analog (1+2)"?

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Manuel wrote:

Does anyone know what driver is used when I select "Fireface 400 Analog (1+2)"?

WDM in such case.
Otherwise I didn't read carefully that long thread but here I'm using mostly Cubase 4 together with foobar2000 or Win Media player and using the FF400 they all play well together. RME ASIO in C4 and having adat 7/8 disabled, WDM adat 7/8 for Windows media Player &  foobar. From C4 I never release the ASIO in background though.

Asus P8Z77-V LE Plus_i7-3770K-3.9GHz_DDR3-16GB_Win8.1-x64_TI FW PCI_1xUAD-2_Cubase 4&7

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

mb2 wrote:

So fundamentally, asio-multiclient works with the fireface. But not if you like crackling sound in logic and wavelab.(...)
Secondly, if i use wavelab and foobar together on different outputs of the fireface then i get crackling sound in wavelab.

Manuel wrote:

Crackling noise and more crackling noise. (...) Yes, I reinstalled XP and the bare minimum to test the Fireface 400 and still got the same problems: I cannot run ASIO multiclient. If Cubase is using playback channels 1+2 only (i.e. all other channels have been explicitly disabled) I get crackling noise if I try to get another application to use playback channels 3+4, and I mean 3+4 exclusively.

Sorry if this gets boring, but I have to say that this is not a common issue and that I can not reproduce it on my machine. I have Nuendo playing on 1&2 and Media Player on 5&6 without the slightest hint of crackling. And this is a fairly standard PC (Intel D805, XP SP2). I'm willing to test this on my 1.2 GHz laptop, and I'm positive there will be no crackling whatsoever (only got Samplitude installed on this machine).

Of course this requires that both applications are running at the same sample rate.

Without further details, I can't quite tell you what is causing this crackling on your machine, but it is (as in Ted's case) not a general issue or problem of the Fireface and its driver - as is the fact that mb2 is occasionally getting dropouts even without multiclient operation.


Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

54

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Hi, bob

The problem is that i want to do sequencing on my faster and quiet notebooks. On my noisy ( noise from fans and harddisks )old desktop with the delta2496 it is not so pleasant to work. So i thought i would be right with external firewire. For soundquality
i came to the result that none of my tested interfaces beat the Fireface 400. If there wouldn't be these driver-unreliabilities and crackling noises from time to time. Maybe i will try to get a pcmcia interface like the echo indigo io instead and than do the good old step by step recording with one stereo in. But thanks for your recommendations, bob.

cheesy

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

mb2, you did not mention which driver version you are using. While you are considering some kind of Cardbus solution, you could also try a Cardbus FW interface for the FF400 instead of onboard FW. Also test your laptop with this software. Do you ever see "errors" in the settings dialogue?

Please mind that crackling etc. is rarely, if ever, actually caused by the audio interface and the driver. They are usually at the receiving end of general system performance issues.

Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

56

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Hi, daniel

sorry, i forgot that. I use driver 2.82. And i have tried the latency tool from the beginning until now. There has always been a maximum on my two samsung notebooks of about 300 m?/s. No errors in the settings dialoge.

cheesy

57

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Hi daniel,

I just tried again the the terratec phase x24 on old dektop pc and the second samsung notebook. Flawlessly working with 88 samples buffersize and multiple applications at the same time. No hickups no drops no cracklings. But terratec's overal soundquality is poor. So i am sorry to say that i now have the schnauze voll and will give back both interfaces to the reseller.
I still think rme support takes care of their custommers very well taking into consideration the huge complexity of some problems.

respectfully,
cheesy

58 (edited by Sands 2008-02-26 02:36:21)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Manuel wrote:

Crackling noise and more crackling noise.

Same here. It obviously has nothing to do with FW as it happens to me with HDSP 9632 as well.

No one replied on the other thread I opened, so I might as well chime in here.

I'm on XP x64 SP2 and need two K2 standalone instances to make use of all 8GB RAM I have.

The moment I open a second instance of K2, I get crackles in both instances. This happens whether or not any sequencer is open as well.

I close all MIDI YOke ports AND out channels in the second instance and still have crackles playing the instruments in the first.

I spent days trying to figure this out to no avail. I tried just about every single idea that came to mind and nothing has helped so far.

This has absolutely nothing to do with NI's software as I know lots of people with other soundcards using up to 4 K2 instances on Windows x64 with no problems at all. This goes for other NI software in both x32 and x64 as well.

The fact that Manuel has all this working flawlessly on another multiclient interface says enough, I guess.

Also, even when only one instance of K2 and Cubase SX2 are open at the same time, I can't get audio from Cubase no matter what I do. As soon as I save my K2 template and close K2 the audio from Cubase immediately appears. Needless to say, I changed the channels in Cubase and it didn't work.

If anyone has an idea what this could be or if I'm doing something wrong or just missing something, I would be extremely grateful as I am completely out of ideas at this point and absolutely need this to work otherwise my upgrade to a x64 system is completely useless.

59

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Simply ask NI if their K2 is able to adress only specific ASIO channels per instance. Seems not.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Let me quote my own post then:

Sands wrote:

This has absolutely nothing to do with NI's software as I know lots of people with other soundcards using up to 4 K2 instances on Windows x64 with no problems at all. This goes for other NI software in both x32 and x64 as well.

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

but the rme-driver is built this way, that only one application can use one asio-channel at the same time. many applications properly support this! so it should be possible for native instruments to "fix" this too!

sometime ago matthias said he wanted to explain the reason of this requirement a bit more. maybe it's due to performance or samplerate mismatch reasons. i don't know.

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

The problem is, on other cards, those guys I talked about have to set different channels as well, but then it works. Here, it doesn't for some reason. And I was assured it will from both the dealer and RME itself.

If multiple K2s run fine on other cards, then there's nothing for NI to fix.

So, the only thing I'm left with if I don't want to be left with a useless $3000 system is either try running on ASIO4ALL get another soundcard.

Or return the card back and get a new one which is pretty likely to happen.

If I was on x32, I'd roll back to 2.94 drivers and I'm pretty sure multiclient would work fine.

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

maybe you can get the native instruments guys to send a not-for-resale copy of kontakt2 to rme so they can test it theirselves?

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

I would imagine that would be RME's duty, not mine.

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

that's might be correct. but maybe you already are in good contact with a native instruments guy? then i wouldn't hesitate to ask them too.


if i remember correctly, this problem DIDN'T exist in kontakt1! so ...

66

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

> Needless to say, I changed the channels in Cubase and it didn't work.

I heared this a million times...and in also nearly a million times the user did not set up the I/Os via F4 correctly.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

67 (edited by Sands 2008-02-26 14:57:38)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

MC wrote:

> Needless to say, I changed the channels in Cubase and it didn't work.

I heared this a million times...and in also nearly a million times the user did not set up the I/Os via F4 correctly.

Do you read what I write at all?

Again, one more time - I can't run two standalone K2 instances REGARDLESS of whether Cubase is open or not.

That is, without Cubase even being open I get crackles the moment second instance of K2 is open.

Do you understand now? Is this so hard for you to understand?

Seeing as how you enjoy being rude and insult your customers all the time, I might as well return the kindness, don't you think?

Plain and simple - multiple standalone instances of Kontakt 2 simply do not work on my RME, but they do on other cards. Period.

And instaed of telling me how incapable I am of even basic configuration like the one of Cubase I/O, you could just write how it's done so that I'm not missing something and save us the argument, don't you think?

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Sands wrote:

This has absolutely nothing to do with NI's software as I know lots of people with other soundcards using up to 4 K2 instances on Windows x64 with no problems at all. This goes for other NI software in both x32 and x64 as well.

I didn't read all the thread and your posts but, you seems not to have tried another card/brand on your system; is that right?

rw

Asus P8Z77-V LE Plus_i7-3770K-3.9GHz_DDR3-16GB_Win8.1-x64_TI FW PCI_1xUAD-2_Cubase 4&7

69 (edited by Sands 2008-02-26 16:45:06)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

rwil wrote:
Sands wrote:

This has absolutely nothing to do with NI's software as I know lots of people with other soundcards using up to 4 K2 instances on Windows x64 with no problems at all. This goes for other NI software in both x32 and x64 as well.

I didn't read all the thread and your posts but, you seems not to have tried another card/brand on your system; is that right?

rw

Yes, that's right. Unfortunately, where I live 9632 costs a thousand bucks, so I don't have any money left to buy another card and I have spent way too much time already trying to get this working so I can finally go back to work and my deadlines. I bought this one because everyone from RME themselves to the dealer  were assuring me multiclient works all around and it doesn't.

But, like I said, it doesn't matter. Multiple standalone instances of K2 work with ASIO on so many systems identical to mine with the exception of soundcard there is absolutely no point in proving it's not a problem on NI side.

But, nevermind ... I, the stupid user who can't even set Cubase channels properly, managed to find a workaround. It's the only thing that I was able to do. I have no idea how it works, but, apparently, it does.

The key is to use two different ASIOs at the same time and use one K2 standalone and the other one plug-in.

What I did was I put K2 standalone on ASIO4ALL and Cubase hosting K2 plug-in on ASIO Hammerfall.

Amazingly, it works. K2 plug-in has problem loading instruments, I don't know what that's about, but it works without any artefacts.

ASIO4ALL standalone, ASIO Hammerfall Cubase. It doesn't work the other way around.

This is the only way for me to use 8GB available RAM on Win XP x64.

I applied LaaTido on both Cubase and K2.dll as well as on K2.exe and it still works.

Will it work at stress conditions, we'll see. I hope I'm not just lucky so far.

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Sands wrote:
rwil wrote:
Sands wrote:

This has absolutely nothing to do with NI's software as I know lots of people with other soundcards using up to 4 K2 instances on Windows x64 with no problems at all. This goes for other NI software in both x32 and x64 as well.

I didn't read all the thread and your posts but, you seems not to have tried another card/brand on your system; is that right?

rw

Yes, that's right. Unfortunately, where I live 9632 costs a thousand bucks, so I don't have any money left to buy another card and I have spent way too much time already trying to get this working so I can finally go back to work and my deadlines. I bought this one because everyone from RME themselves to the dealer  were assuring me multiclient works all around and it doesn't..

Well the idea is not to buy but to borrow a card and to use the same slot than the 9632 and see how your system is going on...

rw

Asus P8Z77-V LE Plus_i7-3770K-3.9GHz_DDR3-16GB_Win8.1-x64_TI FW PCI_1xUAD-2_Cubase 4&7

71 (edited by Sands 2008-02-26 16:57:11)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

rwil wrote:

Well the idea is not to buy but to borrow a card and to use the same slot than the 9632 and see how your system is going on...

rw

I know ... But I really don't have any time left for that nor would it be easy to find someone with another high-end card who would be ready to stop work to lend it to me.

I was so desperate just a couple of hours ago I almost gave up and made piece with the fact that I simply won't be able to run more than one instance when this thought came to mind and I tried it and so far so good.

I'll keep you updated on how it goes.

72

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Sands wrote:

I was so desperate just a couple of hours ago I almost gave up and made piece with the fact that I simply won't be able to run more than one instance when this thought came to mind and I tried it and so far so good.

Well, this kind of idea could be found in this forum too. Another user uses one instance as ASIO plug-in via a free ASIO host, the other K2 as stand-alone version. Seems to work too.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

MC wrote:
Sands wrote:

I was so desperate just a couple of hours ago I almost gave up and made piece with the fact that I simply won't be able to run more than one instance when this thought came to mind and I tried it and so far so good.

Well, this kind of idea could be found in this forum too. Another user uses one instance as ASIO plug-in via a free ASIO host, the other K2 as stand-alone version. Seems to work too.

That's good news.

Will report back how it's going once I start pushing it.

74 (edited by Manuel 2008-02-28 09:27:47)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Wow this is getting hot. The amount of participation that this thread is receiving tells us that something is not quite right.

I figured out that the Kore audio interface creates new ASIO channels for each new ASIO client you run. If you have Kore you may have noticed the STATS dialogue where you can see things like how many errors have occurred, current sample rate & bit rate... and number of ASIO clients and number of ASIO channels allocated. Looking at this information whilst opening and closing ASIO clients led me to the conclusion that even with Kore each app needs its own separate ASIO playback channels which it does not share with other clients. However, Kore mixes all the ASIO channels down into a stereo pair straight away, without allowing you to set levels the way Totalmix does. If you want to change the level of the signal coming from, say, Cubase, you have to do that from within Cubase. FF400 lets you do this either from Cubase or from Totalmix.

The advantage with Kore is that the software always assigns the next available ASIO channel to the requesting application. Therefore the clashes that we've all seen with FF when two apps try to output on the same playback channel just cannot happen, for users don't have control over this. This makes sense to me becasue crackling audio is no use to anyone.

There is no question that Totalmix makes FF the MOST flexible audio interface on the market. However, it is this flexibility that inherently limits ASIO multiclient capability. Here is why:

Kore creates any number of ASIO channels ad hoc. All ASIO channels are mixed IN SOFTWARE and then  they are sent to the audio interface over a USB connection. With the FF400 channels are sent UNMIXED to the hardware, where they get mixed by the DSPs. The advantage of this is, of course, the highly desirable near-zero CPU loading, but the disadvantage is that the number of ASIO channels is limited by the number of DSPs in the hardware. Therefore:

- With FF, more ASIO clients = more DSPs required (however this is physically fixed!)
- With Kore, more ASIO clients = more CPU power required

On a PC or a MAC CPU usage will eventually limit the number of ASIO clients that you may be able to use, but you are unlikely to ever need that many ASIO apps running together, and if you did...   then upgrade your CPU.

In addition, imagine what would happen in Totalmix every time you added a new ASIO client: a new channel strip would be required in the middle row of faders. Similarly, the Matrix would have to be resized too.

The bottom line is that, as long as the hardware handles the mixing (and this is the way this is likely to be), we are stuck with this limited ASIO multiclient performance. It may be possible for RME to combine software and hardware mixing to fix this problem, thus embracing the best of both worlds :-)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Today I just got fed up. After waking up my PC from sleep, as usual, my FF400 would not work, and the only way to get it to work is to switch it off (swith at rear!!). I am sure this and many other issues will be solved with a software/firmware upgrade, whatever, but I need a working set-up now, not in April 2009!!!:censored It has been exactly one (painful) year since I bought the unit. Since I aspire to be a musician, not a software tester, my FF400 will be up for sale on eBay some time soon, and I'll be buying a Native Instruments Audio Kontrol which will fullfil my needs and, most importantly, work every time. If I need more I/O, I'll just buy an analogue mixer.

In summary, software = bugs, bugs = problems.

The only thing I will greatly miss is DIGICheck, which is awsome... only for PC users though. If any Mac users are reading this, can you recommend a good spectrum analizer?

Thanks for your participation in this thread and all the best!

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Manuel wrote:

The only thing I will greatly miss is DIGICheck, which is awsome... only for PC users though. If any Mac users are reading this, can you recommend a good spectrum analizer?

I think Matthias wrote that a Mac version of DIGICheck is already in development!

77 (edited by Manuel 2008-03-15 13:07:20)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Dandruff wrote:
Manuel wrote:

The only thing I will greatly miss is DIGICheck, which is awsome... only for PC users though. If any Mac users are reading this, can you recommend a good spectrum analizer?

I think Matthias wrote that a Mac version of DIGICheck is already in development!

Ooops, missed that one out obviously. It doesn't matter to me though because I am a PC user anyway :-).
Dundruff, are u a PC user or a Mac user? If you are a PC user, I'd like you to try something with your Fireface (or whith whatever RME audio card you own).

1. Set up your media player to output on playback channels 1 & 2.
2. Play an audio file, make sure you can hear it
3. While playing, put your computer to sleep.
4. Wake up your computer.

Q. Is the file still being played?

On my system, it wouldn't be. Even if I select diferent channels. The unit seems totally frozen. In order to be able to use the Fireface again I have to power-cycle it. This also happens even if I press Stop before entering suspend mode. Other behaviour, discussed here, is also exhibited and may be related to the above problem.

It also happens if I close the application before suspending (i.e. the driver is properly released).

Note: On the Kore hardware, when I wake up my computer the music starts playing, as if nothing had happend.

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Manuel wrote:

1. Set up your media player to output on playback channels 1 & 2.
2. Play an audio file, make sure you can hear it
3. While playing, put your computer to sleep.
4. Wake up your computer.

Q. Is the file still being played?

yes, works fine here on my hdsp9632 with the latest 3.058 drivers ...

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Dandruff wrote:
Manuel wrote:

1. Set up your media player to output on playback channels 1 & 2.
2. Play an audio file, make sure you can hear it
3. While playing, put your computer to sleep.
4. Wake up your computer.

Q. Is the file still being played?

yes, works fine here on my hdsp9632 with the latest 3.058 drivers ...

This is something to do with the FF audio driver. I know it's nothing to do wiht my motherboard for two reasons:

1. While the audio driver becomes unusable, the Firewire connection between the motherboard and the  Fireface is up and running because if I turn the knob on the Fireface the corresponding fader in Totalmix moves accordingly.

2. I have tested the Fireface on 3 different WinXP computers just now and the Fireface exhibits the same behaviour on all 3 after wake-up.

fryingpan

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Still hanging on to my FF400... Does anyone know if Fireface on the Mac is fully multiclient? That is, can several apps share the same playback channel?

Perhaps the question should be rephrased to "Is CoreAudio fully multiclient?"

If the answer is "yes" I might buy a Mac becuase I am madly in love with the flexibility of the Fireface.

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Hey!

I've been searching all around these internets for a good discussion on this issue, and low and behold, here it is.

I'm having this exact same problem. I've tried EVERYTHING!!!! No matter what, I get the dreaded crackling in my playback anytime I have two apps both accessing the ASIO Fireface drivers. I would very much like to use the loopback functionality, but this is clearly not an option with this crackling. 

I'm able to use ASIO4ALL to drive one app (whilst having the ASIO Fireface drivers drive the other), and then route it through the Fireface, but the loopback option would clearly be so much better.

Did anyone ever fix this? Any final resolution?

Slightly OT: Does anyone know if ASIO4All can drive more than one app at a time?

Thanks!!!

82

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

You can try this one:

ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Hardwa … omulti.msi

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

83 (edited by Timur 2008-10-25 19:55:20)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Let's set this straight:

1. The Fireface 400 is capable of Multiclient Output on different output ports only.

a) This does work with certain software combinations, but you must not change Audio Buffers/Latency while doing so unless you disable/reenable the output afterwards.

I just had a combination of Ableton Live (ASIO: 3/4), Media Player (Wave: 5/6) and Absynth (ASIO: 7/8) running. All were routed to Outputs 1/2 via Fireface Mixer and played flawless as long as I left buffer settings alone.

b) This does not work with other combinations of software. I cannot get two standalone instances of Absynth 4 and Reaktor 5 run via the Fireface even when different output ports are selected. Either one instance is completely silenced or there is lots of crackles and drop-outs.

c) Other audio interfaces offer an internal ASIO mixer within their drivers. Among those are the Kore 1 and the Creative X-FI on my system. Those do not only run flawless with several instances of NI standalones, but even allow all instances to use the very same output channels.

The X-Fi even offers its own mixing application including the possibility of adding hardware DSP effects and routing any ASIO output to any physical output. The Fireface Mixer allows something similiar, just without the DSP effects and without the possibility to receive/mix on the same ASIO channels from different applications.

Conclusions:

!: The Multiclient ASIO driver of the Fireface is restricted compared to other audio interfaces in that it does not offer its own internal mixer. I don't know enough about it, but I assume this is conforming to the ASIO standard and one reason why the Fireface is able to reach so good low latency performance. I suspect the X-Fi might do the mixing via its DSP though and just have its driver pass on the data via "virtual" channels.

": There is something at odd with the standalone versions of NI applications. I cannot tell wether we are experiencing bugs of the Fireface driver or bugs of the NI software. But I suspect that the NI standalones do not truely disable the ASIO ports when they are switched off via their Routing preferences.

It would be nice if RME could investigate into these issues. I'm sure you have some means to monitor wether the NI apps are really not disabling those ports on driver level or not. wink

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Thanks Timur. I'm sorry you're having this problem, but its nice to know that a fellow like you can empathize with me. smile

Timur wrote:

b) This does not work with other combinations of software. I cannot get two standalone instances of Absynth 4 and Reaktor 5 run via the Fireface even when different output ports are selected. Either one instance is completely silenced or there is lots of crackles and drop-outs.

FYI: The apps with which I'm trying to get this to work are Ableton Live 7.0 and EastWest's PLAY.


Timur wrote:

It would be nice if RME could investigate into these issues. I'm sure you have some means to monitor wether the NI apps are really not disabling those ports on driver level or not. wink

Yes, that would be awesome.

85 (edited by Timur 2008-10-25 20:29:29)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Oh, no problems here. I was just testing for you folks and providing some informations. I am only using Multiclient outputs when testing several instances of Live for Midi stability. Very useful! Unfortunately Ableton is often unable to understand the informations you provide them. fryingpan

On stage we use Live as a Midi Master host and Kore 2 as a Midi Slave host with NI plugins. The only standalone we needed so far was Reaktor for Midi mangling, no audio output whatsoever there, but we use Max for that now.

Live is far from being a perfect host unfortunately. It filters out all repetitive Midi values and thus disables all endless Midi knobs (unless you map them to Live controls instead of routing them directly to the plugin), its plugins timings are not stable when using big buffers and as a Midi Slave it has several issues, too. ed:

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

jbone1313 wrote:

Whoah! This works!

Didn't try it (no need for this atm), but thanks to MC for providing the link. I didn't know about this app before and searching the web for it (now that I know its name) doesn't give any much results.

So if I ever need it, it's good to have it at hand. smile

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Big bummer though: It appears this ASIOMulti app is 32 bit, and thus, PLAY, being a 64 bit app, can't use it. That's suprising too, because I figured 32/64bit wouldn't matter in this case. sad

Anybody know if there's a 64bit alternative? I've tried searching but no luck.

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Timur wrote:

But I suspect that the NI standalones do not truely disable the ASIO ports when they are switched off via their Routing preferences.

That's the case. Some older standalone versions (old versions of B4, Pro-52 etc) didn't have this problem!?. It got introduced once they updated all their applications with a new framework/gui.

89

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Timur wrote:

thanks to MC for providing the link

I thought someone else had posted it in this forum before? It's written by Karl Steinberg as tool for himself and then released into the wild...AFAIR...no support though...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Here the readme: ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Hardwa … readme.rtf

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Matthias, maybe you could implement an optional Mixer into the drivers that allow using the same channels over different applications? This would help circumventing problems like with the NI standalones and give some people less of a headache. ed: wink

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Hi!
Ok, I realize this is an old thread, but I just had to register and chime in on this important matter.
I think the last post here is extremely relevant, and it makes me suspicious when it does not generate any response from RME.

I have used a Delta 1010-card for my home studio setup for years now, and the issue with FULL multi-client support (with several applications USING THE SAME HW OUTPUTS) has not even occured to me, because it has always worked flawlessly. But a while back I started using a Fireface 800 in the main studio, and workflow bottlenecks started to emerge, compared to my joyful years with the, supposedly much inferior, M-audio card. For me it's utterly important to be able to Alt+Tab between Cubase, Soundforge and Winamp (Win XP SP2) for a seamless workflow, reference listening, sample editing, etc. All this without the dreadful "release asio driver in bg"-option enabled.

So, we're now about to upgrade the studio setup to a SSL Alpha Link ADDA with POSSIBLY an RME card as the interface. But if the fact remains, that RME cards occupy HW outputs dedicated to a single application only, I must start searching for other options. I do NOT want any hassle with internal and/or external routing to be able to use the same HW outputs for multiple applications. You may call it a semi-pro setup/thinking, not stable, whatever. I've been able to mix several albums using the old Delta card for years...without any limitations whatsoever regarding internal HW output sharing. If i buy something, I just want it to work, and to be a versatile tool for my work. Period.
Ok...convince me to stick with the RME product line. Sorry if I sound harsh, but it all seems like an incredibly silly limitation for next-to-high-end piece of gear. If M-audio can pull it off, so can you guys.

Regards
/Daniel

93 (edited by laex 2008-12-22 10:42:01)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Eldhrimnir wrote:

But if the fact remains, that RME cards occupy HW outputs dedicated to a single application only, I must start searching for other options. I do NOT want any hassle with internal and/or external routing to be able to use the same HW outputs for multiple applications.

I think you didn't put it right; it's true that you have to assign individual outputs for each peace of software that shall run at the same time, but it's definitely only some stupid pieces of software that occupy more outputs than they are configured to!! Imho that's hardly an RME fault...

For my part, I am very happy with how it works - sometimes I'm using Cubase, Foobar2000 and a Guitarrig standalone simultaneously with no problems whatsoever. Sure, you have to use RME's routing capabilities - but why you wouldn't want to touch those is very very strange imho, you're missing out on a whole lotta fun...
wink

I wouldn't want anything else but my beloved "next-to-high-end" (wtf??) RME gear on my desk (and I find myself forced to work with "high-end" Protools crap in "pro" studios quite a lot these days...) - always looking forward to coming home to RME...
rotfl

laex

DC rules!

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Eldhrimnir wrote:

Ok, I realize this is an old thread, but I just had to register and chime in on this important matter.
I think the last post here is extremely relevant, and it makes me suspicious when it does not generate any response from RME.

Conspriacy theory ahead... :roll cool

But if the fact remains, that RME cards occupy HW outputs dedicated to a single application only,

The cards don't "occupy" anything, they just don't allow two applications to simultaneously access the same output channels. This does not mean, however, that you can not have several applications using the card.

I do NOT want any hassle with internal and/or external routing to be able to use the same HW outputs for multiple applications. You may call it a semi-pro setup/thinking, not stable, whatever.

There is hardly any hassle, nor is the solution unstable in any way or kind. Just set it up once, i.e. deactivate a channel pair in the ASIO setu0p of your application, and set it as Windows standard device or set Winamp to use it. Then mix the outputs as applicable in the HDSP mixer, routing them to the common physical output of your choice. Done... This is one of the reasons why the HDSP mixer exists.

If i buy something, I just want it to work, and to be a versatile tool for my work. Period.

This setup works.

If M-audio can pull it off, so can you guys.

This is not a matter of "pulling off" something, MC explained earlier that this is a matter of choice rather than a bug.

Also, feel free to try ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Hardwa … omulti.msi (Readme here)


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

95 (edited by undertone 2008-12-26 19:42:51)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

RME Support wrote:
Eldhrimnir wrote:

But if the fact remains, that RME cards occupy HW outputs dedicated to a single application only,

The cards don't "occupy" anything, they just don't allow two applications to simultaneously access the same output channels. This does not mean, however, that you can not have several applications using the card.

I do NOT want any hassle with internal and/or external routing to be able to use the same HW outputs for multiple applications. You may call it a semi-pro setup/thinking, not stable, whatever.

There is hardly any hassle, nor is the solution unstable in any way or kind. Just set it up once, i.e. deactivate a channel pair in the ASIO setu0p of your application, and set it as Windows standard device or set Winamp to use it. Then mix the outputs as applicable in the HDSP mixer, routing them to the common physical output of your choice. Done... This is one of the reasons why the HDSP mixer exists.

Actually, the fact is that some software like Nuendo 4 will reserve ALL available ASIO I/O for its own use and that there's no way to exclude any I/O from it unless it's already in use before Nuendo is launched. And while this is clearly a failure of Steinberg, not RME, it still ends up being causing a problem to the end-user. It's quite irrelevant who is right and wrong about this when you're trying to push product out the door at 3AM... and while I'm a BIG RME fan, I can totally sympathize with the Eldhrimnir.

Even if you have multiple programs running, you only have two ears so you won't be playing audio from more than one program: you just want them to transparently access the same outputs. I may have a go at using the Steinberg app, but the lack of support makes me apprehensive, and in reality it sounds like it was faster for Charlie to code this solution than to wait for the Steinberg production pipeline to take care of it (!). But it also requires all programs to use the same sampling rate, which is also a problem.

From my perspective, this issue is much more relevant to sound designers than music producers. When you record you're using the same app for endless hours. Sound designers on the other hand have a tendency to jump from one program to another and a need to do so quickly is essential; in this context multi-client sharing of common outputs is a necessity, as a new program may be launched for a specific purpose at a moment's notice. Having to fiddle with I/O assignments simply breaks that workflow.

But as mentioned, sampling rate is also an important problem to consider. As long as everything is happening at the same sampling rate, everyone's happy, but it's a real problem if not, and in sound design it's not uncommon to use really strange rates outside of the normal musically common ones. Wavelab has a resampler you can stick on the output bay to match whatever you're working on to the system's sampling rate, but it's the exception. It's not stellar in performance, but the Windows Sound Mapper resamples to the system's sampling rate on the fly, and it's exactly why I still use it when working on sound design.

So an ideal solution would combine free multi-channel sharing along with an implementation of user-selectable quality resampling at the ASIO outputs as required.  Processing requirements could be high especially for multi-channel audio (depending on quality settings) but in a multi-processor world it's conceivable. IMHO, this would be an ABSOLUTE multi-client solution worth having.

PS: I know this is a VST issue, but I would love to see a system-wide implementation of VST plugins that would lie between available ASIO output assignments in the programs and the ASIO inputs to the hardware outputs. Then the above would be trivial to implement. Potentially, one convoluted way of resolving this problem exists with Virtual Audio Cable, though such boutique solutions aren't usually trouble free.

PC1 = HDSPe PCIe: DF-ADI-8 DS / HDSPe PCIe: MF2
MBP = HDSPe Expresscard: MF1

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

undertone wrote:

Actually, the fact is that some software like Nuendo 4 will reserve ALL available ASIO I/O for its own use and that there's no way to exclude any I/O from it unless it's already in use before Nuendo is launched.

AFAIK Nuendo should be like Cubase and it is possible to enable/disable i/o from the Device Setup dialog
(around VST Audio System page).

rw

Asus P8Z77-V LE Plus_i7-3770K-3.9GHz_DDR3-16GB_Win8.1-x64_TI FW PCI_1xUAD-2_Cubase 4&7

97 (edited by Dandruff 2008-12-26 20:18:00)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

rwil wrote:

AFAIK Nuendo should be like Cubase and it is possible to enable/disable i/o from the Device Setup dialog
(around VST Audio System page).

That's right. But as far as I remember Cubase/Nuendo (since version 3) always open the first two ASIO outputs (AN1+2 on a HDSP9632 for example) on startup even if they are deactivated. Loading a project "solves" it I think.

That's something Steinberg needs to fix.

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Dandruff wrote:
rwil wrote:

AFAIK Nuendo should be like Cubase and it is possible to enable/disable i/o from the Device Setup dialog
(around VST Audio System page).

That's right. But as far as I remember Cubase/Nuendo (since version 3) always open the first two ASIO outputs (AN1+2 on a HDSP9632 for example) on startup even if they are deactivated. Loading a project "solves" it I think.

That's something Steinberg needs to fix.

Ok I see. I always free up only the last analog and/or adat channel(s), so was not aware about that behavior.

rw

Asus P8Z77-V LE Plus_i7-3770K-3.9GHz_DDR3-16GB_Win8.1-x64_TI FW PCI_1xUAD-2_Cubase 4&7

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

Yeah. I'm not sure if they fixed it in their latest versions but I doubt it smile

100 (edited by Timur 2008-12-26 22:33:44)

Re: ASIO multiclient not working properly

undertone wrote:

So an ideal solution would combine free multi-channel sharing along with an implementation of user-selectable quality resampling at the ASIO outputs as required.  Processing requirements could be high especially for multi-channel audio (depending on quality settings) but in a multi-processor world it's conceivable. IMHO, this would be an ABSOLUTE multi-client solution worth having.

Windows Driver Model (WDM) fryingpan wink