• djp53
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Topic: Totalmix - Independent Fader Groups, for Remote Submix Control

I'm attempting to use my Fireface UFC+ as a FOH Mixer with 6 separate monitor mixes for the musicians, via Totalmix and Totalmix Remote.  In addition to the various instrument and vocal inputs, I have multiple keyboard and drum inputs that I'd like to show up in the individual monitor mixes as two single Keyboards and Drums faders, rather than each of the musicians having to adjust all the various inputs.

I had high hopes that I could set up two fader groups, for Keyboards and for Drums, such that the individual groupings would be common for each Monitor Submix, but the adjustable levels would be independent for each submix that the Fader Group was assigned/programmed to. In this way, I could establish a basic mix for Keyboards and Drums, and each user could then have a single adjustment point that would let them independently adjust their desired volumes of each "input submix".  As I've discovered, the Fader Groups are not independent, such that programing the same fader group across more than one output submix causes level adjustments that impact/corrupt the other submixes.  So, I've given up on that approach.

If there were a larger number of assignable Fader Groups, I would be able to accomplish my goal, but with only 4, I can only get 2 of the 6 musicians the simplified interface.  But in lieu of that, the only way I've thought of to accomplish my goal is to use a hardware/cable output to input loopback:  for example, it seems like I could break my AES HW Input & Output into two mono sends and receives, and build a Keyboard Submix for one and a Drum submix for the other; then with the output hardwired back to the AES input, I could then use those 2 inputs as the single point Keyboards and Drums inputs in each monitor submix.  My main concern there is the potential feedback if the AES outputs hever had the inputs brought to non-zero values. 

So I'm looking for some comments as to the viability of doing this.  Perhaps there is another more direct way to accomplish what I'm trying to do that has escaped me?  Suggestions and comments welcomed!

Also, to the RME mods, would my suggestion to make the 4 existing Fader Groups "independent" over each output submix be an enhancement that might be considered viable for future Totalmix updates?  It would obviously be helpful to someone using the Remote user features, but I imagine a lot of folks using Totalmix don't run at that level of complexity.  Having a new Preferences selection that would toggle the feature on/off would be ideal.

Thanks for your consideration!

Dave

2 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
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  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
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Re: Totalmix - Independent Fader Groups, for Remote Submix Control

Interesting suggestion. We will discuss this internally. But please note that even if this is added to our list it would take a long time to be implemented. So better don't wait for it.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • ebulb
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Re: Totalmix - Independent Fader Groups, for Remote Submix Control

if you wanted to create OSC layouts on tablets for each musicians monitor control, you may be able to hack something similar to fader grouping behaviour that way..

the idea is... design a OSC tablet layout and create a fader and then assign all the individual drum input channels to that OSC fader.. so if you have 6 drum channels then the tablet fader has those six OSC addresses assigned to it. then when the user moves the tablets fader it moves all the drum input faders in totalmix.. the grouping info is stored in the OSC layout and totalmix just think its getting a message to moves 6 faders at once. also totalmix can limit each OSC controller to only change levels for one output so each musician cant affect each others mix..

there are some caveats with this though in terms of how relative levels between the drum channels and the tablet fader can change, also the way OSC transmits and is received.. it isn't perfect solution but I'm pretty sure ive used it for simple stuff and you may potentially be able to make it work...

the software I used was OSCAR which worked ok, but these days touchOSC has had a large update also and if you wanted to go down the rabbit hole there could be possibilities in the new touchOSC that might make this concept work better..

ive also used the loopback idea but with ADAT on UFX.. I recall it worked ok for what I wanted but yes a feedback loop could occur..  if you remove the visibility of those output channels from totalmix and all controllers it may mitigate the chance of feedback..  for example... split your AES into LEFT/RIGHT, then select AES LEFT output on bottom row.. create the drum mix going to that output then once the mix is set go to totalmix settings and hide AES LEFT visibility... then you cant select that output accidently and route the AES input back to the AES output.. 

anytime you wanted to update the drum/keyboard mix you would need to make AES outputs visible while you did this and then hide again once mix changes are done..  again not a perfect solution but might be good enough..

  • djp53
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Re: Totalmix - Independent Fader Groups, for Remote Submix Control

Matthias - I appreciate you all taking a look, if possible the enhancement sure would be useful to mel.

ebulb - using OSC is something I had not considered, so thanks for the great suggestion.  I will probably go with the hardware workaround for the moment, just because I have enough to think about to get these 6 monitor mixes set up as well as the main views for me (I run the sound as well as play keyboards), teach everyone how to run their personal mixes, and get used to Totalmix EQ and effects.  Gonna be fun!

  • ebulb
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Re: Totalmix - Independent Fader Groups, for Remote Submix Control

cool.. if you hide the AES output channels after you have setup the mixes it should help prevent accidently creating a feedback loop..

  • Registered: 2022-03-31
  • Posts: 8

Re: Totalmix - Independent Fader Groups, for Remote Submix Control

Kind of bummed out this isn't possible, yet.  Sounds like I'll be keeping my Qu-24 (and QuYou iPhone/Android apps for each artist) for the foreseeable future.  It's a bit of a waste, as I'm only using it as a monitor mixer and really hoped to replace it with TotalMix.

  • Registered: 2012-09-06
  • Posts: 10

Re: Totalmix - Independent Fader Groups, for Remote Submix Control

Hi,

So if you make a fader group in Totalmix (on the computer) then it is global for all connected IOS devices running Totalmix Remote, correct?

But what if you create a fader group on a connected IOS devices in the Totalmix Remote app, is this fader group then also global or does it only apply to that connected IOS device?

Thanks for the help!

  • From: Germany, Tuvalu, Poland, Chile
  • Registered: 2021-07-27
  • Posts: 470

Re: Totalmix - Independent Fader Groups, for Remote Submix Control

- Yes, correct.
- Applies global.

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard
  • Registered: 2012-09-06
  • Posts: 10

Re: Totalmix - Independent Fader Groups, for Remote Submix Control

ok thanks! Too bad, there must be other people in this world that want to use Totalmix Remote for multiple musicians monitoring in their studio's? So many people have RME interfaces and could easily setup a cheap multi channel monitoring system using old ipads and a wifi network. But having only 4 fader groups and the fact that they are only global are limiting factors when you have a lot of channels. Layout presets are great for navigation, snapshots and workspaces are great for recalling mixes/routings/...
But if we would have more fader groups then each musician could easily setup a "more me" layout where he groups his/her faders in group A and all the rest in group B.. Or divide the band into drums, bass, keys, rooms, guitars, vocals, ... and just look at the fader colors and set volumes for the different band sections very quickly without having to adjust all the faders separately..

So here's my wish list for future updates:
-more fader groups (and make them individual, or global ... setting in preferences)
-ability to rearrange channels: It happens so often that there's a spare last channel on the interface that I'll use for an extra kick mic for example. Now the other 2 kick mics live on channel 1 and 2, it would be great if I could drag that last extra kick channel over to the other kick channels so they are right next to each other!
-more space for naming the channels in bigger fonts
-make Totalmix Remote android compatible smile

That's it really!
Anyway I'm rocking 8 Ipads now in the studio, finally my musicians can setup their own headphone mixes!
Works great but it could be better still.
So I hope someone here will read my feature wish list..
Thanks!

  • From: Germany, Tuvalu, Poland, Chile
  • Registered: 2021-07-27
  • Posts: 470

Re: Totalmix - Independent Fader Groups, for Remote Submix Control

Anyway I'm rocking 8 Ipads now in the studio,

So - why did you ask, at all?
if you already use 8 iPads, you should know how the Remote App works?

If you meant me, regarding your wishlist - wrong address - I am just a normal user.

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

11 Reply by rmemius (edited by rmemius 2024-10-10 14:54:36)

  • Registered: 2022-06-02
  • Posts: 21

Re: Totalmix - Independent Fader Groups, for Remote Submix Control

EDIT: TOTALMIX REMOTE FX "rights management' --> apparently allows locking of certain features - perhaps more in the future for musicians who need to later their own in-ear monitor mix - FANTASTIC!  We wish to use ONLY RME AoX and M-1620 Pro (AVB only!) WITHOUT a digital mixer onstage.

EDIT 2: I've left my initial write below primarily as i mention using STEINBERG incredible VST LIVE for the whole band.
This edit notes that I've now understood "layouts" on remote(s) which pretty much allows musicians to control their levels without seeing the entire RME totalmix host view!   FABULOUS!!!

Of course all improvements and features for REMOTE FX are of maximum interest!

------- INITIAL WRITE BELOW -------

YEP - count me in -- me and a bunch of other live band/artist types.

WHEN buying an RME AoX-M and M-1620 Pro (AVB) the need is to AVOID needing a digital mixer onstage.

USING Steinberg's outrageously wonderful VSTLIVE program (windows for me forever) and the RME gear we can't really use a digital mixer as we only want ONE "own monitor mix" app on each player device.

This is needing to be a quick write.

My understanding is that Remote FX doesn't allow for sections of the mixer to be display, other than being able to 'lock' some elements.


EACH musician being able to mix their own levels and whatever else might be possible means we don't need a digital mixer.
Adding a digital mixer onstage for monitor mixes using the above gear is redundant when using STEINBERG's VST LIVE

all that said - it would be a huge problem to not be able to give each player the ability to modify at least their own in-ear levels.
Maybe STEINBERG in years to come will add the mixer page as a bi-directional feature to their LiveMods app which currently does lyrics and bars.

My wish/need is to ONLY use RME gear - NO DIGITAL MIXER WANTED for onstage monitor mixes

Sorry if this write's a bit patchy.

best wishes to everyone

I'll write again when I've thought and studied more.

ALL pretty amazing and SUPER thrilled about the new AoX MILAN (AVB woohoo!)  and M-1620 pro


don't want to be adding onstage digital mixer when already using STEINBERG's VST LIVE which is jaw-dropping !-)

  • From: Germany, Tuvalu, Poland, Chile
  • Registered: 2021-07-27
  • Posts: 470

Re: Totalmix - Independent Fader Groups, for Remote Submix Control

Thanks for your constructive post.
Yes, you‘re absolutely right. I didnt have this in mind. Of course - Via rights Management you can limit access for each remote client to its own submix.

What just comes in my mind - i didnt check till now if the adhoc-fader groups (the yellow ones)   could be used by each client seperated. Will check this soon.

And, i am absolutely with your general point of view: Always try to avoid 3rd party SW/HW where possible.

Regards

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard