Topic: Zero Latency Monitoring

Hi,

I am using an external preamp for recording.  It is going into analog input 1. 

How do I monitor the source coming directly into the ADI 2/4 Pro SE? (zero latency monitoring)

Thank you!

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Do you want to listen with a headphone or with loudspeakers connected to the analog outputs ?

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

3 (edited by Babaluma 2023-04-19 07:14:46)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

I might be wrong but I'm not sure that's possible with the ADI 2/4, I think you can only monitor post ADC.

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

4 (edited by KaiS 2023-04-19 09:20:51)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

I am using an external preamp for recording.  It is going into analog input 1. 

How do I monitor the source coming directly into the ADI 2/4 Pro SE? (zero latency monitoring)

Just for listening to the input select  “Analog” in the output’s I/O menu.

The ADI-2 series devices doesn’t support TotalMix, which is where ZLM is happening.

So, for monitoring the analog input along with a music playback, like for overdubbing a vocal track, with relatively low ASIO-latency you can use the software monitoring function of your DAW.
For ZLM a TotalMix capable interface like HDSPe AIO Pro, HDSPe RayDAT, or DigiFace USB needs to be added.


With ADI-2 alone, there are two hardware DIY soldering “hack” possibilities, that need specially configured adapter cables combining both channels 1/2 + 3/4 to a single headphones or line output.
Ask if you like details.

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

waedi wrote:

Do you want to listen with a headphone or with loudspeakers connected to the analog outputs ?

Hi Waedi,
Headphones

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

KaiS wrote:

…For ZLM a TotalMix capable interface like HDSPe AIO Pro, HDSPe RayDAT, or DigiFace USB needs to be added.

If one of these interfaces are added, are they capable of bypassing the internal pre’s?

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:
KaiS wrote:

…For ZLM a TotalMix capable interface like HDSPe AIO Pro, HDSPe RayDAT, or DigiFace USB needs to be added.

If one of these interfaces are added, are they capable of bypassing the internal pre’s?


None of these devices have internal preamps....

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

RME Support wrote:

None of these devices have internal preamps....


The DigiFace USB looks like the easiest to install being USB.  Is there any difference in sound quality of the DigiFace USB as opposed to the other mentioned?

Thank you!

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

All are digital only so the sound quality comes from your ADI!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

10

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Thank you everyone!
Also, just checking but, does TotalMix FX play together well with Studio One?

11 (edited by KaiS 2023-04-19 14:59:35)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:
waedi wrote:

Do you want to listen with a headphone or with loudspeakers connected to the analog outputs ?

Headphones

In this case my mentioned hardware (“hack”) adapter cable would be the most cost-efficient solution, if you have headphones with balanced connections option.

All you need is an inexpensive replacement cable (to mod) for the headphones, plus 2 pc. 1/4“ TRS jacks, and some minor soldering skills.

A typical balanced headphones cable consists of 4 wires internally, that will be connected like this:
• Hot left, hot right –> Tip, Ring 3/4
• Cold left, cold right –> Tip, Ring 1/2

This combines the signals of output 1/2 and 3/4 without causing the short that a simple y-cable would.
Now you can play the Studio One music track on 1/2 while additionally monitoring the analog input on 3/4, adjust each individually.

12

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

KaiS wrote:
vpj wrote:
waedi wrote:

Do you want to listen with a headphone or with loudspeakers connected to the analog outputs ?

Headphones

In this case my mentioned hardware (“hack”) adapter cable would be the most cost-efficient solution, if you have headphones with balanced connections option.

All you need is an inexpensive replacement cable (to mod) for the headphones, plus 2 pc. 1/4“ TRS jacks, and some minor soldering skills.

A typical balanced headphones cable consists of 4 wires internally, that will be connected like this:
• Hot left, hot right –> Tip, Ring 3/4
• Cold left, cold right –> Tip, Ring 1/2

This combines the signals of output 1/2 and 3/4 without causing the short that a simple y-cable would.
Now you can play the Studio One music track on 1/2 while additionally monitoring the analog input on 3/4, adjust each individually.

I’m a little nervous of potentially voiding any warranty by doing this, but not opposed to getting the DigiFace USB if TotalMix FX works well with Studio One

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

Thank you everyone!
Also, just checking but, does TotalMix FX play together well with Studio One?

There's no direct interaction as such...

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

14

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

I just purchased the DigiFace USB and 2 Toslink cables
Hoping this works!

15 (edited by KaiS 2023-04-19 18:34:38)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:
KaiS wrote:
vpj wrote:

Headphones

In this case my mentioned hardware (“hack”) adapter cable would be the most cost-efficient solution, if you have headphones with balanced connections option.

All you need is an inexpensive replacement cable (to mod) for the headphones, plus 2 pc. 1/4“ TRS jacks, and some minor soldering skills.

A typical balanced headphones cable consists of 4 wires internally, that will be connected like this:
• Hot left, hot right –> Tip, Ring 3/4
• Cold left, cold right –> Tip, Ring 1/2

This combines the signals of output 1/2 and 3/4 without causing the short that a simple y-cable would.
Now you can play the Studio One music track on 1/2 while additionally monitoring the analog input on 3/4, adjust each individually.

I’m a little nervous of potentially voiding any warranty by doing this, but not opposed to getting the DigiFace USB if TotalMix FX works well with Studio One

The adapter wouldn’t have the potential to break anything.
ADI-2’s headphones outs are protected against all odds.


If you go the DigiFace USB route you need an additional Optical to Coax converter to address ADI-2’s second input/channel.


Totalmix is self-contained and can be used independently as such, and even has the option to interact with DAWs.

16

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

I’m lost.
The DigiFace will work right?

17 (edited by KaiS 2023-04-19 18:55:54)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

I’m lost.
The DigiFace will work right?

Yes, and I have to correct myself:

No Optical to Coax converter for a 2nd signal path needed, as you mix all to one single headphones output with TotalMix.

18

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Okay, sweet!  Thank you for your help!!

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

Thank you everyone!
Also, just checking but, does TotalMix FX play together well with Studio One?

Yes, in the same way as with every other DAW.

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

20 (edited by vpj 2023-04-24 16:52:02)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

I have the DigiFace USB connected to the computer via USB and to the ADI 2/4 via SPDIF

TotalMix recognizes the audio coming out of Output 1/2 (main mix) and also channel 3/4 (outboard gear)

On the ADI 2/4 my headphones are connected to PH 3/4 and source is set to SPDIF

I can hear the main mix

I see signal coming into Analog 1/2, but do not hear anything

21 (edited by KaiS 2023-04-24 17:23:22)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

I can hear the main mix

I see signal coming into Analog 1/2, but do not hear anything

Route the analog input signal to the main mix out, in TotalMix (with no latency) or your DAW (with ASIO latency, if the DAW has a record monitor function).

Some DAWs like Magix Sequoia and Samplitude, Steinberg Cubase and Nuendo, and some others, have ZLM via Totalmix built into their interface too.
This means, the DAW is steering the TotalMix routing, coupled to the DAW’s record monitoring function.

22

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

KaiS wrote:
vpj wrote:

I can hear the main mix

I see signal coming into Analog 1/2, but do not hear anything

Route the analog input signal to the main mix out, in TotalMix (with no latency) or your DAW (with ASIO latency, if the DAW has a record monitor function).

Some DAWs like Magix Sequoia and Samplitude, Steinberg Cubase and Nuendo, and some others, have ZLM via Totalmix built into their interface too.
This means, the DAW is steering the TotalMix routing, coupled to the DAW’s record monitoring function.

Sorry, I should clarify, I see signal for Analog 1/2 on the display of the ADI 2/4. I do not see signal coming within the input section of TotalMix.

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Only for me to understand things right: in what mode do you use the ADI 2/4 now?

FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

24

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

oli77sch wrote:

Only for me to understand things right: in what mode do you use the ADI 2/4 now?

Right now I have the ADI 2/4 running in-

Basic Mode: USB
CC-Mode: Multichannel

25 (edited by KaiS 2023-04-24 22:40:20)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

Right now I have the ADI 2/4 running in-

Basic Mode: USB
CC-Mode: Multichannel

USB modes can’t send the analog input’s signal to the Optical Out.
USB Mode makes sense with the ADI-2 connected via USB only, but you do use optical i/o only.

Try AD-DA Converter Mode, look at manual page 43 to see the routing options.

26 (edited by oli77sch 2023-04-25 05:48:32)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

KaiS wrote:
vpj wrote:

Right now I have the ADI 2/4 running in-

Basic Mode: USB
CC-Mode: Multichannel

USB modes can’t send the analog input’s signal to the Optical Out.
USB Mode makes sense with the ADI-2 connected via USB only, but you do use optical i/o only.

Try AD-DA Converter Mode, look at manual page 43 to see the routing options.

That’s why I asked!
AD-DA makes much more sense because there is now the Digiface USB for the connection to the computer.

FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

27 (edited by KaiS 2023-04-25 10:29:32)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

The always reappearing question for ADI-2’s studio-like usage is:


Do I need RME TotalMix?

In most cases the answer is: No!
This answer simplifies a lot.


Only if very low latency monitoring is needed, the answer is: yes.
Then one has to decide which interface to add that includes TotalMix, as ADI-2 itself doesn’t have it.

The most cost-efficient solutions are:

• For laptops: DigiFace USB and, only optional, an Optical to AES converter to access both of ADI-2 Pro’s outputs independently if needed.

• For desktop computers: HDSPe RayDAT, or again Digiface USB.



@MC:
I suggest to think about making ADAT channel 3/4 accessibly in both ADI-2 “Pro”- versions.
This would simplify the interfacing with Digiface USB and other RME solutions a lot.

I’m aware about the 96 kHz sample rate limitation, and possibly quite some effort to implement this.

28

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Now in TotalMix I have the following:

Software Playback: I see signal going out of 3/4 in TotalMix for outboard processing

Hardware Output: I see signal going out of 3/4 in TotalMix for outboard processing

Hardware Input: I see signal coming back into TotalMix on 1/2

But, now I am receiving a feedback loop for some reason

29

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Is the hardware hack KaiS recommended the easiest solution?
If so, I might just return the DigiFace.

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

Is the hardware hack KaiS recommended the easiest solution?
If so, I might just return the DigiFace.

Of course it is, and the cheapest either, this is why I proposed it first.
Can you, or a friend, solder a little?

31

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

I can solder
I just might need some assistance with figuring out how to construct the hack
I’m using DT770 pro’s as far as headphones go

It looks like I can get headphone cable from Sweetwater:


https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail … irect=true

32 (edited by KaiS 2023-04-25 16:58:23)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

I can solder
I just might need some assistance with figuring out how to construct the hack
I’m using DT770 pro’s as far as headphones go

It looks like I can get headphone cable from Sweetwater:


https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail … irect=true

You need a 4-wire cable that goes with 2 wires individually to each cup.
Even if the right side wires runs through the left cup where the cable is mounted.

Probably you have to open up the left cup for re-wire.
This guy did it nicely, with a mini-xlr connector:
http://www.diyaudioblog.com/2015/05/bey … 4-pin.html

Or just use headphones with balanced cable option, like any Sennheiser.

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

Now in TotalMix I have the following:

Software Playback: I see signal going out of 3/4 in TotalMix for outboard processing

Hardware Output: I see signal going out of 3/4 in TotalMix for outboard processing

Hardware Input: I see signal coming back into TotalMix on 1/2

But, now I am receiving a feedback loop for some reason

In Totalmix, select the hardware out 3/4 by clicking on it to make it the active mix, then close the faders on hw inputs 1/2.

FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

34

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

KaiS wrote:
vpj wrote:

I can solder
I just might need some assistance with figuring out how to construct the hack
I’m using DT770 pro’s as far as headphones go

It looks like I can get headphone cable from Sweetwater:


https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail … irect=true

You need a 4-wire cable that goes with 2 wires individually to each cup.
Even if the right side wires runs through the left cup where the cable is mounted.

Probably you have to open up the left cup for re-wire.
This guy did it nicely, with a mini-xlr connector:
http://www.diyaudioblog.com/2015/05/bey … 4-pin.html

Or just use headphones with balanced cable option, like any Sennheiser.

Would these work?
https://en-us.sennheiser.com/hd-300-pro

35

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Or, would it be possible to have you send me a list of components that would work and then I can purchase and assemble them?
I just want to make sure that whatever I buy will work properly.

36

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

With the HD 300 Pro, would I basically cut off the connecter at the bottom of the cable, pull back the shielding a little and attach the specified 2 wires to one TRS and the other two wires to another TRS
Or, am I off base with that? Lol

37 (edited by KaiS 2023-04-25 23:03:43)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

I tried to find out the cable config of this specific Sennheiser, but couldn’t find any information.

This one would be perfect, with the least of extra work.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/133037062026
Get it with 6,3 mm jack, unsolder the two wires that go to sleeve and solder them to tip and ring of a second 6.3 mmm jack.

Or this one:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/295641281923?ep … R8S5gaf3YQ


Sennheiser HD25 stock has the perfect cable config for the mod too, and sounds great IMO.

38

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Thank you!
Just got the DT 770 Pro’s from the first Ebay link!
It’ll be a few weeks until they arrive, but will let you know when they get here!
Thank you again for the help, KaiS!

39

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Hi KaiS,

The headphones just arrived and all I am seeing is 3 wires.  Will this still work?
Can I split out the wire attached to the sleeve?

Thanks,
Vince

40

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Custom Cans is going to provide a different cable!
Wooo

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

Custom Cans is going to provide a different cable!
Wooo

+1

42

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Hi KaiS,

Got the new cable for the headphones.
Can you please provide a listing of what settings the RME should be on to configure it correctly?

Thank you!

43 (edited by KaiS 2023-06-20 20:54:33)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

Got the new cable for the headphones.
Can you please provide a listing of what settings the RME should be on to configure it correctly?

The idea is, to route the analog input signal directly, ADI-2/4 internal, to PH 3/4, while the DAW output, with the music to play along, goes to PH1/2.

As the special cable “mixes” PH1/2 and PH3/4, you can now listen to both at once - even set individual monitoring levels for each with ADI-2’s controls.

A fitting ADI-2/4 setting is:
USB-, Class Compliant Stereo- Mode, see manual page 42.

The source selection for both outs is under:
• I/O / Phones 1/2 / Settings / Source: USB (1/2)
• I/O / Phones 3/4 / Settings / Source: Analog

44

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

For some reason Phone Out 1/2 is greyed out from choosing a Source.  It is on “Auto”.

Currently, when I try to use the setup, the mic input sound is coming out of the left ear & the DAW playback is coming from the right ear.

45 (edited by KaiS 2023-06-21 18:38:28)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

For some reason Phone Out 1/2 is greyed out from choosing a Source.  It is on “Auto”.

That’s correct and no problem.
If you look at the block diagram on page 42 PH1/2 is already connected to playback channel 1/2, without a source select option.

vpj wrote:

Currently, when I try to use the setup, the mic input sound is coming out of the left ear & the DAW playback is coming from the right ear.

Then the two TRSs are not wired like I suggested.

Unsolder the left Ring and the right Tip connection, and re-solder in reverse.

This is how it should be then:
• Hot left, hot right –> Tip, Ring 3/4
• Cold left, cold right –> Tip, Ring 1/2

46 (edited by vpj 2023-06-21 12:42:13)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Is my cable wired like a standard balanced cable?  And, it needs to be wired in a more unconventional method?

47 (edited by KaiS 2023-06-21 18:41:28)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

Is my cable wired like a standard balanced cable?  And, it needs to be wired in a more unconventional method?

Exactly, if you have 2 TRSs it’s the ADI-2 Pro connection scheme for regular balanced operation, which we DON‘T want.
We even DON’T operate ADI-2 in balanced mode then!


Follow my instruction above.
Hope you can solder smile


BTW:
It might be better to reverse the connections in the Mini-XLR, if it makes sense to keep the mechanical cable arrangement including the splitter on the TRS side.

Only that in Mini XLR’s contacts are densely arranged, not a solder job for shaky hands.

1. Open both TRS.
2. Note down the wire colors for left Ring and right Tip connection.
3. Open the Mini XLR, take some photos how parts fit together.
The orientation of the metal strain relief is critical.
4. Reverse the two wires found in 2.
5. Check function.
6. Close Mini XLR.

48

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

If I rewire from the TRS connectors end and go with the configuration:
• Hot left, hot right –> Tip, Ring 3/4
• Cold left, cold right –> Tip, Ring 1/2

Is this compatible with the pinout of the ADI 2/4?
Is there any worries of damaging the equipment?

Thank you!

49 (edited by KaiS 2023-06-22 06:43:32)

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

vpj wrote:

If I rewire from the TRS connectors end and go with the configuration:
• Hot left, hot right –> Tip, Ring 3/4
• Cold left, cold right –> Tip, Ring 1/2

Is this compatible with the pinout of the ADI 2/4?
Is there any worries of damaging the equipment?

It is the same for ADI-2 Pro and ADI-2/4 SE.


The idea is to combine (= mix) the sound of both PH1/2 and PH3/4 outs into one ‘phone.
The signal runs from one amp to the other through the headphones.
This way the headphones serve as correct load for the amps, and the amps can work quite normal.


Just to hard wire the amps outputs directly together would not work, as one amp would load the other like a short circuit or worse.

ADI-2’s ‘phones outs have a lot of protections built in, so even in case or shorts nothing breaks.
Anyway, the proposed scheme doesn’t short anything, go for it.

50

Re: Zero Latency Monitoring

Just another thought, can headphone 1/2 and headphone 3/4 be sent to a very small mixer and then headphones plugged into the mixer?