Topic: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

Hello,

I've received my DAC (Thomann.de, B-Stock).

Under Windows 10 and foobar2000, I want to play DSD (USB cable)

I watched the manual and it is said that there is a "Direct DSD" option in the settings.
But I do not have it at all sad

What's going wrong ?

PLEASE HELP ME.

Best,
Eric

2 (edited by ramses 2023-04-29 21:25:25)

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

The manual tells that DSD Direct (Line) is not available with devices that have ESS (not AKM) chip.

The list gives you an overview "what chip where":
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 06#p165706

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

Thank you.

Now, my question is : How to find one with an AKM chip please ? Or is it impossible because RME has stopped AKM chip ADI-2 FS ?

4 (edited by ramses 2023-04-29 21:28:32)

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

Eric wrote:

Thank you.

Now, my question is : How to find one with an AKM chip please ? Or is it impossible because RME has stopped AKM chip ADI-2 FS ?

Get ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, this model was exclusively equipped with AKM chip, see the list above in my post #2.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

5 (edited by KaiS 2023-04-29 21:42:05)

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

Eric wrote:

Thank you.

Now, my question is : How to find one with an AKM chip please ? Or is it impossible because RME has stopped AKM chip ADI-2 FS ?

Keep it like it is and be happy you don’t have to deal with all the DSD hustle.

Set Foobar to convert DSD to PCM and take full advantage of ADI-2’s capabilities, that soundwise by far outclass any theoretical DSD advantage.


Once you begin to use ADI-2‘s DSP functions you for sure will not want to miss them in favor of DSD direct.
Start with the “Loudness“ function.

6

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

Eric wrote:

Hello,

I've received my DAC (Thomann.de, B-Stock).

Under Windows 10 and foobar2000, I want to play DSD (USB cable)

I watched the manual and it is said that there is a "Direct DSD" option in the settings.
But I do not have it at all sad

What's going wrong ?

PLEASE HELP ME.

Best,
Eric

I have two impressions:

1. You read the wrong or a very outdated manual. Current version is here:

https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dacr_e.pdf

2. Your issue is that DSD isn't working at all (but that would be caused by something else and doesn't need the Direct DSD option).

Right or not?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

KaiS wrote:
Eric wrote:

Thank you.

Now, my question is : How to find one with an AKM chip please ? Or is it impossible because RME has stopped AKM chip ADI-2 FS ?

Keep it like it is and be happy you don’t have to deal with all the DSD hustle.

Set Foobar to convert DSD to PCM and take full advantage of ADI-2’s capabilities, that soundwise by far outclass any theoretical DSD advantage.


Once you begin to use ADI-2‘s DSP functions you for sure will not want to miss them in favor of DSD direct.
Start with the “Loudness“ function.

Not speaking of theoretical advantages of the ADI-2's PCM capabilities, but in general this is really bad advice.
Converting DSD to PCM will loose you sound quality, very noticeably. Also, the conversion in Foobar is not the best out there.

8 (edited by KaiS 2023-05-02 12:06:43)

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

BoooM wrote:
KaiS wrote:
Eric wrote:

Thank you.

Now, my question is : How to find one with an AKM chip please ? Or is it impossible because RME has stopped AKM chip ADI-2 FS ?

Keep it like it is and be happy you don’t have to deal with all the DSD hustle.

Set Foobar to convert DSD to PCM and take full advantage of ADI-2’s capabilities, that soundwise by far outclass any theoretical DSD advantage.


Once you begin to use ADI-2‘s DSP functions you for sure will not want to miss them in favor of DSD direct.
Start with the “Loudness“ function.

Not speaking of theoretical advantages of the ADI-2's PCM capabilities, but in general this is really bad advice.
Converting DSD to PCM will loose you sound quality, very noticeably. Also, the conversion in Foobar is not the best out there.

There’s no urgency to convert DSD.
All ADI-2 versions can do DSD.

But- at this point I’d like to quote you:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 45#p191745

BoooM wrote:

... I know it's a pain to work with DSD, but I want to use the best digital resolution...

Most people prefer to “painless” - say with not too much technical hustle - just listen to music.
Again numerous ADI-2 owners like to favorably use it’s DSP functions.
DSD stands in the way for both requirements.

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

Hehe, nice find. True, convenience is important. It's just that I was (and still am from time to time) on a research mission to discover what the best digital can do. And I hear big differences to when the signal is converted to PCM. Btw., I find it a bit bad that during recording with the Pro that I only can hear a "coarse PCM conversion" (very coarse, it sounds like it is using simple averaging of the DSD stream for every PCM tick) when listening to the RME "preamp" signal. I know it is done for it to show peak levels and analyzer, but I'd prefer to have an option to listen to the DSD or watching the numbers. It's not possible to switch, is it?

I can't comment on the DSD capability of the ESS chip, but it has some I guess.

10 (edited by KaiS 2023-05-02 15:11:38)

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

Just did a short test:
Switched 192 kHz PCM<->DSD on ADI-2/4 Pro SE in the Analog Input menu, while monitoring through the headphone out on a Hifiman HE-1000 V1:

Source was a true analog vinyl disc.
Couldn’t hear any obvious difference.

I can hear a noticeable difference between PCM 44.1 vs. 96 kHz, but no change from there up, in the same setup.


For me 96 kHz is “transparent” to the source.
My colleagues in the recording studios express the same find, that’s why most music recordings are done at 96 kHz 24 bit these days.

Interestingly, if the final release format is 44.1 kHz (or 48 kHz in filmmaking) I get better results if I stay in that format all through.
I can better take into account the slight limitations and work around them during sound design, avoiding surprises after downsampling.


If I listen to vinyl on ADI-2/4 Pro SE privately, I just set 192 kHz, way on the safe side, and still full ADI-2’s DSP capabilities available.

11 (edited by BoooM 2023-05-02 17:28:27)

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

Well, headphones are the wrong device to make such conclusions. In part analog and DSD are superior to PCM because of better phase information from which the brain derives the sound stage etc, which does not work with headphones.

But even then, I have a switch on my preamp where I can toggle vinyl and RME DSD recording of it, the vinyl is cleaner every time, still unclear why this is. Cables may be different too, which unfortunately can also play a huge role I learned (by listening). But can be the switched power supply etc, I will keep investigating.

Btw., one great thing about DSD is that if needed, you can convert it to an arbitrary PCM resolution, I'm not surprised that 96 kHz and 44.1 kHz are kind of incompatible.

I listen to my vinyl recordings via bluetooth in the car, and they sound great, better than CD actually (maybe cause of 24 bit, maybe cause my recordings lack some highs and the car stereo has too much highs). KaiserTone is the app I'm using on the iPhone, I believe it has a better DSD to PCM conversion than all apps I used (Foobar and the Tascam one actually) on my Windows PC.

Edit:
"Switched 192 kHz PCM<->DSD on ADI-2/4 Pro SE in the Analog Input menu, while monitoring through the headphone out on a Hifiman "

What do you even mean by this? Didn't I just tell you I cannot hear DSD while recording? It's deactivated. (I don't have the SE, but I think this should be the same for yours too). I need to wait until the recording is finished to play the DSD. Do you mean A/D conversion? This is not what you hear on your headphones, you always hear PCM while in preamp-mode.

And if you use the headphone amp of the ADI-2, DSD is deactivated too, because it doesn't have analogue volume control.

12 (edited by KaiS 2023-05-02 17:29:42)

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

BoooM wrote:

Well, headphones are the wrong device to make such conclusions. In part analog and DSD are superior to PCM because of better phase information from which the brain derives the sound stage etc, which does not work with headphones.

I’d suggest to be careful to argue with technical terms on subjective impressions:

PCM and DSD do not differ the slightest in their phase response, if you look at a frequency band that has at least a minimum chance to be audible.

And both are better in this regard than almost every power amp ever built.


I agree in headphones have their limitations, but even one big advantage over speakers:

Listening to speakers in a room, tiny, mm scale head movements change the received amplitude and phase response magnitudes more than the differences between electronics.
Headphones are completely free from this effect, as they just sit tight on the head, so a lot of parameters are much more precise to distinguish.

BoooM wrote:

But even then, I have a switch on my preamp where I can toggle vinyl and RME DSD recording of it, the vinyl is cleaner every time, still unclear why this is. Cables may be different too, which unfortunately can also play a huge role I learned (by listening). But can be the switched power supply etc, I will keep investigating.

You don’t know what the preamp does to sound “clean”, e.g. tube distortions are know to have this effect- and that’s exactly what it is, a signal changing effect.

Or just a level difference.
For a valid A/B levels need to match by at least 1/10 dB, only possible with precise voltage measurement during setup.
Test it, bring ADI-2 0.5 dB up and judge again.


In my job I have the (from the microphone) analog original- vs. digital recording-comparison 100s of times a day when tracking in the studio with real musicians playing real instruments:
If there was a significant difference between original and recording it wouldn’t stay unnoticed.
But that doesn’t happen - monitored on speakers BTW.

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

Please also check my edited, enhanced response. I'm not saying my test is perfect, I need to get same cables if possible to do such a test, but there is always some harshness (not as bad as PCM harshness ;-)) on the RME chain, which I don't have on the pure vinyl playback.

How do you monitor analogue? Analogue gear? Speakers without DSP?

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

In my studio all signal chains, except the recording, are analog.


Regarding DSD:
I didn’t check with my ADI-2 Pro.

On the ADI-2 Pro SE I can switch the AD-converter to DSD and monitor the signal.
No DSD-direct. Continues volume control works, but DSPs are all deactivated.
SR needs to be 192 kHz or higher.


BTW:
@ MC: M/S-Proc is deactivated with DSD, but forgotton to be greyed out in the Analog Input menu.

15 (edited by BoooM 2023-05-02 19:34:29)

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

KaiS wrote:

Regarding DSD:
I didn’t check with my ADI-2 Pro.

On the ADI-2 Pro SE I can switch the AD-converter to DSD and monitor the signal.
No DSD-direct. Continues volume control works, but DSPs are all deactivated.
SR needs to be 192 kHz or higher.

What I'm saying, -correct me somebody if I'm wrong- I think this would be the same for the SE:

The ADI-2 has 2 sound chips (AKM), and as far as I understood if you record, one chip is used for that task, converting analogue to digital. That is what the setting you are using is affecting.

If you want to monitor it, the recording stream is copied to the second chip, but since the unit also displays loudness and spectrum it ALWAYS converts this stream to PCM.

If you want to check DSD, you first need to record (I use VinylStudio), and if you then play back the DSD file, the unit has one free chip for this task.

And that was what I was criticizing earlier. I mean, I like that you can monitor what the A/D is doing, and adjust the analogue chain accordingly, especially tuning loudness, but still it's not a true representation of the signal if you record DSD. The general sound signature - bass vs. highs - is right, but playing back the DSD file afterwards is WAY smoother.

16 (edited by KaiS 2023-05-03 01:29:04)

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

• ADI-2 Pro has 1 AKM ADC- and 2 AKM DAC-chips.
• ADI-2/4 SE has 1 AKM ADC- and 2 ESS DAC-chips.

DSD is converted and downsampled for the meter- and analyzer-display only, this works independent from the audio monitor.

Monitoring the analog input’s / ADC’s DSD signal works like any listening by selecting “Analog” in the I/O menu.
DSD to PCM for listening with volume control is done inside the DAC-chip, but disabled when DSD-direct is selected in the ADI-2 Pro.
ADI-2/4’s ESS DAC’s doesn’t offer DSD-direct.

Non of the DSD modes offer any DSP-processing, and no changes are done to the audible DSD signal until the final, last DAC-stage.


And here’s the “sound difference” between DSD-PCM and DSD direct (ADI-2 Pro only):
DSD direct is 1dB quieter than DSD-PCM!

Read manual page 45, chapter 19.2:

... The output level for digital full scale is 1.0 dB lower than with standard DSD mode. Therefore the maximum analog output levels are 1.0 dB lower than the reference values. For a valid comparison between DSD and DSD Direct the volume of DSD should be set to -1.0 dB.


You see, it’s really easy to be fooled by level differences when comparing, this is why I always check setups with external Fluke 8060A voltmeters before A/B-ing.
BTW: even inexpensive voltmeters offer 4000 digit resolution or better these days.
Good enough for relative measurements.

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

Thanks for correction, indeed I thought the DAC chip could do ADC as well, but it's another chip.
I just looked into the manual, and found that the second DAC chip is basically only used for headphones 3/4, so I never use it.

Overall, this is now still a bit unclear to me, I mean I've been hearing this clearly. But I always used the preamp mode to monitor. I never used the AD/DA mode. Is it better?

Because in the manual I found:
"... In DSD mode the DSP performs an additional DSD to PCM conversion, to be able
to show the audio signal on the level meters and for the Analyzer – another unique feature of the
ADI-2 Pro."

Also Preamp mode:
"... The below diagram shows that the analog input is sent to all digital outputs simultaneously. Any
DSP setting (EQ, phase etc.) of the analog input will affect all outputs. ..."

For the AD/DA-mode, no such statement is given?!


So you are saying: "DSD is converted and downsampled for the meter- and analyzer-display only, this works independent from the audio monitor."

Generally, it makes sense to me, that the DSP is not used for DSD monitoring, but does that hold true for the preamp mode? Also while studying the manual, I found that both the DSP as well as the DAC is capable of converting DSD to PCM, which makes sense in regards to the DSD Analyzer, but is a source of confusion. On the other hand, probably the DAC conversion is of higher quality, such that I didn't hear the same level of difference when toggling "DSD direct", as I hear while monitoring DSD via the preamp mode!


"And here’s the “sound difference” between DSD-PCM and DSD direct (ADI-2 Pro only):
DSD direct is 1dB quieter than DSD-PCM!"
Yes, I see that, it's always at -1 dB for me during DSD recording/playback.

Too bad, the ESS DACs don't offer "DSD direct", but I cannot tell how they sound, I never listened to them. Different chip manufactures have different strategies and that's fine. I know 1-bit DSD is not the only way for high-resolution PDM audio, I think that's what ESS is doing? Multi-bit PDM.

18 (edited by KaiS 2023-05-03 16:52:49)

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

Regarding “Modes“:

My favorite for music listening is DAC-Mode, it’s the most simplistic in usage.
Refer to the various block diagrams for checking what routings are possible in each mode.


There’s no difference in DSD-handling in any Mode.

The internal, DSP-based DSD to PCM conversion really only is for the meters / analyzer. Without conversion metering wouldn’t”t be possible, as DSD doesn’t allow any processing.

This DSP to PCM converted signal never is used for any listening, this conversion is done in the DAC-chip if needed.
So, in whatever mode you listen, it’s always the DAC chip only that’s responsible for the sound.

19 (edited by BoooM 2023-05-03 17:35:44)

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

Something is off then, maybe a bug?

I've been using the ADI now for over a year, so I'm pretty sure I can trust my ears on that. But in case I wanna do a blind test, the only option I have available is to record ADIs output into a "cheap" interface, no DSD, max 192 kHz I think.

I haven't really recorded much PCM, just a few tests. DSD always sounded better, clearly better than 768 kHz PCM. So I don't know how the monitoring sounds when recording PCM, maybe it's not even related to DSD?

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

I came to this thread seaching for a question. Interesting discussion smile

Is the parametric EQ disabled when playing DSD direct? (from Foobar).

I have the ADI-2 PRO FS R BE.

Re: No Direct DSD setting on my ADI-2 DAC FS

From page 17 from the user manual :
DSD can not be processed digitally. Therefore DSP functions like Bass, Treble, Loudness, EQ
etc. are disabled in DSD mode. The volume control is no longer done by the DSP, but the DAC
chip. You won’t notice that, volume operation at the ADI-2 Pro is seamless and behaves identical
in any mode. In DSD mode the DSP performs an additional DSD to PCM conversion, to be able
to show the audio signal on the level meters and for the Analyzer – another unique feature of the
ADI-2 Pro.

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue