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Topic: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

I'm considering picking up an RME interface, and I've read that you can bypass TotalMix if you like to achieve a lower round trip latency and monitor directly in my DAW.

My other option is an Apollo X6 or x8 and I'd rather not get sucked into the UA ecosystem if I can help it, plus I'm limited to their own plugins to monitor through them at "zero" latency.

I'd ideally like to add effects natively within the daw and monitor my live inputs through them at a hopefully imperceivable latency if possible.

Is this correct? and is it even necessary? (will I achieve a low enough round trip, even with TotalMix in the equation?)

If it is possible, then are there certain RME interfaces that will excel at this in particular?

Would I need the Thunderbolt capable UFX+ for example?
Or will the Fireface UFX II do this over USB just fine?

Thanks so much

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

Hi
TotalMix cannot be bypassed, it runs on the interface itself, in fact it’s the DSP mixer. There is just a simplified 'DAW' mode. Anyway TotalMix is for sure not an issue regarding latency. It’s about optimising your  computer!

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

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Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

Ah I see, maybe the simplified DAW mode was what I was reading about. My bad.

So in that case, does anyone know If I can I achieve a sub 8ms round trip latency monitoring through a DAW using a Mac M1 Pro (10 cores)

In the past I've used an Apollo Twin that had a much larger round trip latency through the DAW that I always assumed was because of it's software mixer environment.

I also used a Presonus Quantum 2626 that was advertised as ultra low latency because they don't use a DSP software mixer, you're forced to monitor through the DAW, which they claim allowed users ultra low latency. While this was true, the round trip latency was incredibly low and allowed me to live monitor through plugins natively in my DAW, their drivers were plagued with bugs and I'm now considering RME as an alternative.

I was hoping RME and their reputation for super rock solid drivers and low latency might be the solution I'm looking for.

4 (edited by ramses 2023-08-28 17:44:32)

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

Hello ss and welcome to the RME user forum.

All RME recording interfaces offer to you very low latency due to two reasons
a) RMEs excellent performing driver and
b) because of the advanced product design. RME does not use 3rd party communication chips in their products.
RME uses FPGAs in their products which also perform the communication towards the computer.
If there should be anything wrong on RME side in the product, then it can be fixed by reprogramming the FPGA with a flash operation. An FPGA is a (re-)programmable CPU.

> My other option is an Apollo X6 or x8 and I'd rather not get sucked into the UA ecosystem if I can help it,
> plus I'm limited to their own plugins to monitor through them at "zero" latency.

RME interfaces simply work, unlike UAD, you do not get spammed for product offers. And if RME works on their software and new functions, you do not have to pay for it.

UAD has IMHO a few major disadvantages, besides the fact that it seems to work for some people (but at what "price")
- dependency on dog old / slow DSPs which they sell like for high prices and which act like a dongle for the plugins
- CPU power in PCs, their single thread and multi-thread performance is much higher compared to those old shark DSPs
- the plugins are DSP hungry, so you need usually their premium interfaces and additional cards to have enough DSP power
- no good mix of port types on their interfaces and no possibilities to clever expand over something like ADAT or MADI
  all that you can do is to pile up stuff through thunderbolt
- the best interfaces have only thunderbolt as an option for PC connectivity
- the approach for native plugins comes IMHO too late and only for a handful of plugins (too few) and doesn't mitigate some other mentioned issues
- you become spammed like hell for product offerings, I do not regard this as serious business
- I heard their support is not that good
- because of this ecosystem and the price that you paid, it seems to me that you are bound to them for a "lifetime"

> I'd ideally like to add effects natively within the daw and monitor my live inputs through them at a
> hopefully imperceivable latency if possible.

It depends on the ASIO buffersize that you need to use, which finally has the highest impact on latency.
Converter latency is nowadays with modern converters less of an issue.
The new UFX III has, for example, converters with only 5 and 6 samples latency
At 44.1 kHz this is 0,11 and 0,136 ms for AD and DA.
At 96 kHz this is 0,052 and 0,063 ms for AD and DA.

I would be more concerned about the round trip latencies between recording interface and PC for a complete round trip: AD, communication to PC, PC processing, communication back to interface, final D/A.

In this blog article, I put together RTL of different products and product combinations.
Recording Interface alone (USB, FW, TB) and
RayDAT (full digital working card) with an older UFX as Preamp in stand-alone mode
A MADI-based solution, HDSPe MADI FX card with an older Preamp (XTC) with MADI support.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … cts-en-de/

Although I understand your demand, that you want to process sound live through PC, add FX and then monitor in a live situation with added FX, I would not completely say that you would never need TotalMix FX.
From its routing capabilities, it can be used in a way to "mimic" DAW mode but still to retain the possibility to create yourself very flexible monitoring and other routings.

TotalMix FX will not introduce any latency for you because everything happens in the FPGA on the interface, it's simply a powerful, comfortable and flexible software for controlling the interface's routing and additional capabilities (FX, loopback recording, DURec, Autoset).

The UFX+ can't be produced any more. Intel doesn't deliver needed TB chips.
Same story when RME tried to upgrade the interface with TB3, Intel promised to deliver, but then of all sudden they could not deliver TB3 chips any more. TB4 is too complex and costly for the implementation in a recording interface. This problem will also get other manufacturers once their pile of TB chips is emptied.
For RME less of an issue, because of their drivers and FPGA based design they get fantastic performance over USB and USB2/3 can deliver the needed bandwidth which is needed. Furthermore, CPU consumption is based on my measuring, not higher.

See, here in my blog, that an UFX+ (also UFX III) performs well with USB3 like e.g. a PCIe based RayDAT.
Artificial Cubase project with 400 tracks, two Steinberg VSTs in each track.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … cks-de-en/

Performs at the lowest ASIO buffersize of 32 samples at single speed (44.1 kHz) and 64 samples at double speed (96 kHz) equally well.
This on a system / mainboard from 2014 with two CPU upgrades. Nowadays, you get even much better, more performant CPUs with much higher single and multi-thread performance.
Important: you only need to get a system with good drivers which do not block the processors for too long.

Low DPC latencies are the key for stable audio processing at low ASIO buffer sizes, which you will need if the RTL should stay under 10ms. For that, the ASIO buffersize may not be higher than 128 samples at single speed.

Therefore, I would work together with a good shop who can build machines with low DPC latencies. Tell them your demands. Maybe you can buy both together from them so that it's like a project. You raise your demands, they tell what's possible and if it doesn't work, you should be able to give it back. Check that upfront. As far as I know, no shop gives you the possibility to give back a PC system, that you ordered and heavily customized for your demand (CPU, cooler, RAM, SSD, NVMe and what not) … You never know how well drivers are, this I regard as problematic. So a turnkey system from a system house specialized in such demands is strongly recommended.

Additionally, I would select products which support DURec (Direct USB recording) so that nothing gets lost when you record. You can use an attached USB stick for either backup recordings in addition to the DAW and also for stand-alone recordings and use it like a tape deck.

I think UFX III would be a good choice for you because of the fast converters and the perfect mix of different port types, DURec, etc, and you can expand it easily by using MADI.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … iii-en-de/

An alternative could be a PCIe-based card like the HDSPe MADI FX.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … Pro-FS-BE/
It also offers on board FX for monitoring or to give a vocalist a little reverb and such things. But you need additional devices attached through MADI.

What makes the HDSPe MADI FX special is the optimized driver, that only allocates PC/driver processing resources for a group of 8 ports. So if you use the ports one after each other on the 3 MADI buses, then you have a lesser CPU consumption, which could be interesting as the card supports plenty of ports by the three MADI buses. Explained in the PDF of my review in the blog article above.
But this might not be so important to you, if you do not intend to connect many ADI devices to such an interface ….
What's also interesting, analogue I/O for headphones directly on the card. Furthermore, MIDI if needed and AES.
Through the AES port, you could connect one of the reference converters if you like this feature set.

Here how you can combine any RME recording interface with TM FX fine with such a reference converter:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … our-Setup/
And the differences between ADI-2 Pro and DAC (sorry ADI-2/4 Pro SE not yet included, no time for that).
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … ses-EN-DE/

Short story:

- get a fast computer with very low DPC latencies
- get the UFX III (with FX and DURec) or maybe the HDSPe MADI FX (with FX, no DURec)
- Reference Converter as an option for your monitoring through monitors and phones: ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

As I mentioned, I wouldn't use DAW mode, its silly.
You can perform the same routing like in DAW mode with the normal "Full mode".
There are even Functions in TM FX which create such a routing with one or two mouse clicks on the fly.
But you still have the flexibility of TM FX if a special demand arises for you, where you do not want to route audio through your PC with the full RTL.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

As a side note, I compiled an Excel sheet, which also contains the converter latencies of all products except PCI/PCIe based. I needed to focus on USB/FW/TB-based recording interfaces, which was my main interest.

This sticky guides you to the Excel in my blog: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=35156

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

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Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

Thanks for the detailed answers, this is super helpful.

I'm using a modern M1 mac, so shouldn't have any issues on the computer side of things.
Also PCI-e cards are off the menu.

Sounds like if I pick up a UFX III I should be able to achieve what I want within reason and a decent buffer size.

8 (edited by ramses 2023-08-28 09:06:13)

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

Whats most important but where you didn't deliver information
How many audio sources will you have in your live projects.
What type and number of ports do you require.
Which number of VST or VSTi do you intent to use and need to be processed in parallel and whether they are CPU hungry or if they induce a high processing latency.
It should also be clear and you should consider, that piling up a number of VST as insert in one track will make the processing of this thread much longer. This is not advised and for this you need best a CPU with not only many Cores but which has also a very high single thread performance, because this will most likely all happen withing one CPU thread which can not be distributed across many CPU cores. All will be processed by one core in a serial fashion.

Cubase last recently increased the number of insert slots per track from I don't know exactly anymore 8 to something like 16 .. but this has an impact if you think about life processing. That you can do only in szenarios where audio flows are not time critital.

And you might to be more picky in terms of project organizations .. maybe use more sends for multiple tracks which can use one / same setting compared to use inserts which are per track and pile up in terms of numbers.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

Also, to consider that DAWs have their own way of distributing load across different CPU cores.
If I remember right, Apples Logic Pro had the issue that the first two CPU cores tend to get a much higher load in certain project scenarios, that I do not remember exactly any more.
But what I remember that this was a limiting factor. If the load on these two CPU cores / threads became too high, then you got issues / limitations / audio drops, where the rest of the cores with much lesser utilization didn't help at all any more. As nice as many cores are ... look that the single thread performance and base clock is high too and take care for good cooling so that heat doesn't slow down the system.
I would still recommend to use desktops and no laptops for challenging workloads.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

ss wrote:

So in that case, does anyone know If I can I achieve a sub 8ms round trip latency monitoring through a DAW using a Mac M1 Pro (10 cores)

Sounds like our paths have been similar so here are my thoughts....

I have a UFX III and an M1 Studio, and my interface input latency is 1.52ms and output latency is 1.56ms at 32 samples. I track full bands and mix with no issues of latency, as long as I use latency considerate plugins.

ss wrote:

I also used a Presonus Quantum 2626 that was advertised as ultra low latency because they don't use a DSP software mixer, you're forced to monitor through the DAW, which they claim allowed users ultra low latency. While this was true, the round trip latency was incredibly low and allowed me to live monitor through plugins natively in my DAW, their drivers were plagued with bugs and I'm now considering RME as an alternative.

I was in the Presonus ecosystem for over a decade. Learned a ton with it and made lots of music, so no complaints. BUT driver stability became a real issue as well as latency, as I started working on more demanding projects. I made the move to UFX III (with a 12Mic) and after a bumpy learning curve (TotalMix takes time to learn), it's all working so well. I still use Presonus Studio One as my DAW.

ss wrote:

I was hoping RME and their reputation for super rock solid drivers and low latency might be the solution I'm looking for.

I jumped to RME for exactly the same reason! I also wanted to avoid UA for the same reasons wink

On Ventura I have to use the RME Kernel Extension Drive (v3.28) to not have issues in full Mx native mode in my DAW. Whenever I've tried the DriverKit Driver (v4.08) I have issues with pops and clicks and is unusable for me. Hopefully Sonoma will help on that front, but regardless, the Kernel Driver works great and I can walk into my studio any time and get to work without doing the terrible tech tap dance lol

One added note, Tech Support in the US via email has been top notch!

I used Ramses spreadsheets and blog posts leading up to purchasing my UFX III, and he knows his stuff (thanks Ramses!). TotalMix in DAW mode is a waste of time, just learn the "full" version and you're set. TotalMix is just the "control panel" for the RME interface, no latency added. TotalMix is always running on my computer and peacefully coexists with everything.

I do more tracking, arrangement, production than mixing, but also do live video with audio mixed in RME/Studio One. The latest song I am working on, which was tracked here in the same session, has about 50 tracks & ~80 plugins  - total latency in DAW is 3.3ms. On my previous Presonus 24R if I stayed under 5ms I had no issues with musicians noticing latency during tracking. I haven't pushed the RME but I now say my latency ceiling is 9-10ms as its least 4ms faster than my previous, though I still stay under 5ms out of force of habit.

The UFX III has been excellent for me, and it's a whole lot more than I needed to start, but VERY thankful to have all of its expandability. 94 in/94 out seemed overkill but its been so nice have "headroom" to grow and reimagine my studio as workflow focused.

Hope this helps as you make your decisions. Cheers!

Mac Studio M1 Max, Sonoma, RME UFX III, 12Mic, Pulse 16 MX, Softube Console 1, Studio One 6/7

11 (edited by agotheridge 2023-08-28 17:40:51)

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

If you really want to dive into where latency comes from, there's an excellent section in the rme manuals (at least ufx3) discussing it. There's overhead from the OS, overhead from the daw software, etc. Totalmix I think adds only 3 samples latency if I remember correctly.

Say the modern rme is about .2mms round trip latency on the converters at 48k. I'm pretty sure Apollo is 2ms round trip at 48k. On Apollo you can have a buffer set to off, low and high (I think again), at low, it adds 100 samples which allows room for the plugins to operate in a delay compensated manner, next step up is 200 samples if you exceed that. If you leave it off, it just adds whatever the plugin calls for, say 40 samples for one plug, but if you have another channel with say 2 of those plugins, it could add 80 samples and they would be out of phase unless your are using the no buffer option.

That's part of the story anyway.

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Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

ramses wrote:

Short story:
- get a fast computer with very low DPC latencies
- get the UFX III (with FX and DURec) or maybe the HDSPe MADI FX (with FX, no DURec)
- Reference Converter as an option for your monitoring through monitors and phones: ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

So with this in mind, how necessary is it really to spend the extra on the UFX III instead of a UFX II.

I certainly wont need the extra channels, and I keep reading that there's no difference in latency.

Is a UFX III really gonna decrease latency vs a UFX II if I only need...say 24 ins and 24 outs?

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

ss wrote:

I certainly wont need the extra channels, and I keep reading that there's no difference in latency.

Is a UFX III really gonna decrease latency vs a UFX II if I only need...say 24 ins and 24 outs?

If the number of channels and half-rack form factor suits you, the UCX II has the same latency as the UFX III and is much cheaper than either the UFX II or III.

14

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

I'm looking for something to connect my existing pair of adat preamp strips to,
and unfortunately the UCX only has one pair of ADAT in/out connections. I need 2 pairs.

15 (edited by ramses 2023-08-29 09:20:46)

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

kanefsky wrote:
ss wrote:

I certainly wont need the extra channels, and I keep reading that there's no difference in latency.

Is a UFX III really gonna decrease latency vs a UFX II if I only need...say 24 ins and 24 outs?

If the number of channels and half-rack form factor suits you, the UCX II has the same latency as the UFX III and is much cheaper than either the UFX II or III.

There are still a few differences. Converter latency (especially with more recent converters) is on a much lower level compared to the latency to the PC (RTL) over whatever transport you use (USB, Firewire, TB, PCI/PCIe).

And here the newer MADIface driver supports down to 32 samples at single speed like the HDSPe driver for PCIe based products. This is again 16 samples less in the audio path. For comparison, AD and DA converters have 5-6 samples.
You can make good use of it for rare cases when you really want to get lowest latencies (if the project allows).

An additional bonus: the (newer) MADIface driver supports many products: MADIface XT / USB / Pro, Fireface UFX+ / UFX II / UFX III, OctaMic XTC, ADI-2 Pro/AE/FS/DAC, ADI-2/4 Pro, Digiface USB / AVB / AES / Dante / Ravenna.

This makes it possible that the application (which can only load one audio driver at a time) can have direct access to all of these devices connected through USB at once over the MADIface driver. Windows: and this without creating an unsupported / "bogus" setup because otherwise you would have to use ASIO4ALL. Apple has here aggregate device.

Being able to access all devices through USB is beneficial in situations, where you have multiple devices but do not have ADAT ports free to route channels across devices (if they are not all accessible through USB because of different drivers).

In my setup, the applications (DAW/music player) can access all ports of UFX III and ADI-2 Pro FS R BE (8 ports in multichannel mode) at once over USB. The devices only need to be clock synchronized (through ADAT). If I need the ADAT ports for connecting other devices I can only use AES to connect the ADI-2 Pro. Then it is quite usefull to be able to access the 8 ports of the ADI-2 Pro through USB without having to sacrifice one of the ADAT ports.

There is only one advantage of the old USB driver, it still supports the pitch function, which is not possible anymore in the USB transfer modes being used by the MADIface driver.

There are some other reasons why I would still recommend UFX II or UFX III over an UCX II.

1. getting two excellent headphone outputs instead of only one
2. as you mentioned already on your own: getting two ADAT ports, which are needed to connect either two 8 port Mic preamps or to record with one in double speed
3. getting four Mic/Inst/Line inputs, where the Inst input has a wider gain range which is useful for connecting guitars
4. in my advanced stereo setup for recording guitar (which makes plenty of things possible) I am glad to have the extra analogue ports that the UFX III gives to me. With an UCX II, I would have run out of channels much earlier.
5. never forget, the analogue ports that your device already has are all available at any sample rate without loss of channels like in ADAT/MADI due to port multiplexing to achieve the needed extra bandwidth for higher sample rates.
6. the extra MADI channels can also be useful for additional submixes and loopback recording
EDIT1:
7. UFX II/III have dedicated ports to connect USB Stuck for DURec and the ARC USB, with UCX II this is sadly shared, not so well for standalone operation
8. UFX III: two ADAT ports that can be switched to optical SPIDIF
9. UFX II/III: 2x MIDI I/O which can be useful to split remote control of RME environment and accessing/controlling MIDI devices
10: UFX III: MADI allows better placement of environment across rooms (up to 2 km between each of the devices in a serial chain, do you know whether perhaps your rooms change (House, Studio). MADI is excellent to dedicate lets say 8 or 12 Port Mic preamps for a separate drummer cabin, that can be located everywhere your flat or house.
11: MIDI over MADI, no need for MIDI cabling, excellent in general and cruicial if you have several rooms
12: Excellent remote control of Mic preamps with MADI and MIDI over MADI by using RME connector

I would consider that you never know your future demand exactly. Therefore, the UFX III would be the best investment because of the possibility to expand with MADI. So this is more the interface for me that you can use for the next 20 years.
MADI tech is simple, proven, dedicated for audio. RME as pioneers for MADI have a long experience with it and offer to your great gear with MADI support. The only way to expand with ease if needed.

Other aspects:
- The UFX III got (besides very fast) the proved AKM converters (AK4490 for D/A) of the ADI-2 Pro FS.
- Customers raised a feature requested to make D/A filter selectable in different products which support it
   E.g. UFX II and UFX III). This would be useful for mastering and listening to music.
   Some people have found certain preferences for certain filters, like e.g. AKM's implementation of Slow filter,
   inspired by KaiS positive reports from plenty of blind tests in his studio.
   https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?pid=206380

If you spend already quite a lot of money on equipment, then I think the UFX III offers you the best of all and an excellent investment protection, even for decades. Selling and buying new because of suddenly increased demands was always the pricier way, be it in the short, mid or long term.

Looking back, everything became pricier after corona, chip crisis and delivery chain problems. Therefore, I would purchase now something which is end-game for current and future setup without any further increase in price.

Furthermore, look at the world economy, trade wars, the new positioning of chip manufacturing plants because everybody is worried, that somebody occupies areas of high-tech industry that he shouldn't do, but do we know?

Also consider the time it takes, to implement all the routing again with new devices which a different port layout.
You cannot load an UCX II workspace to an UFX II or UFX III, you would have to implement everything new.

I would definitively consider UFX III if there are no big hindering reasons (price or if you would really need a compact setup).

EDIT2: See my environment. It goes rather quick to make good use of all the I/O ports even if you are "only" guitarist (but with a stereo setup and two external FX, using the UFX III as a parallel loop for the amps, etc.
The Blog article: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … iii-en-de/

[Side note: lets exclude the Octamic XTC for a while in my setup, which is there for other additional purposes like e.g.: mobile recording, to record a gig or band rehearsal. I also kept it because it is very flexible in terms of port types and gives you 4x AES I/O which could be useful for some other cases.]

Quick selection of pictures and a connection diagram giving an overview of the whole setup:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … front-jpg/ (front of the rack, upper part without FX)
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … -amps-jpg/ (lower part, FX and amps/mics)
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … p-etc-jpg/ (cabling of amp related stuff and also MIDI distribution for sending tap tempo to both FX units controlled by  switch/toggle of the Roland FC-300)
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … -0b15-jpg/ (remote control using RME connector and either MIDI over MADI or via LAN for the 12Mic as 2nd option)

Diagram:
1. current setup and connection of devices between "recording-" and "HiFi corner" and
2. the DSL router / WiFi network, to control playback of MusicBee player using MusicBee Remote on Android.
This makes your PC and the UFX III in combination with the ADI-2 Pro in the HiFi corner to a very nice playback solution for any but also High-End'ish HiFi.
3. As a result, you can use your HiFi not only for listening to music, but additionally in TotalMix FX as "Main Out B" for mixing and mastering. My high-end HiFi is quite useful for it because it is more analytical / on the neutral side and digests EQ'ing well.

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachment/3044-current-setup-ufx-iii-v002-jpg/

With TM FX routing capabilities, use of different snapshots/quick select workplace slots
I can use the two external FX (PCM81 / 91) for different scenarios:
a) PCM 81 for Guitar, PCM 91 for Cubase
b) all PCM for Cubase
c) all PCM for Guitar
d) PCM for pc applications to add ambience and what not (rarely in use but possible)

By plugging 1-2 guitars in the instrument inputs of the UFX III I have no sound degradation.
I can record the direct guitar signal and use it for re-amping purposes.
Furthermore I can distribute the preamp signal of one amp to the two amps and use the UFX III as parallel effect loop.
I can preserve the punch of the amp, by routing the preamp signal directly to the Effect Return of both amps, the very fast converters support this perfect without any noticeably latency. FX will be added 100% wet not weakening, only adding to the sound. Useful to have extra ports to be able to connect a rack tuner.
If there would be a demand I could also change the cabling / routing to support playing / recording with a friend using two guitars and two amps in mono .. or quick and dirty, simply add his guitar (also plugged to instr input) to my audio chain including the same or other FX, one guy using PCM81 the other PCM91.

Conclusions:
I showed this to you to put an example how useful it is to plan an environment not too small.
Really a lot is possible by simply having the UFX III as a strong basement for "everything".
Expandability ... sustainability of purchase for a long time.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

ss, if you need two ADATs you may use Digiface USB that has 4 ADATs and connect it to UCX II. You would have one free ADAT for later use, if needed...

Such a setup would probably add few samples of latency...

Digiface is not engineered to be used in standalone mode, to be usable, it has to be plugged to computer.

17 (edited by ramses 2023-08-29 17:11:42)

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

Kubrak wrote:

ss, if you need two ADATs you may use Digiface USB that has 4 ADATs and connect it to UCX II. You would have one free ADAT for later use, if needed...

Such a setup would probably add few samples of latency...

Digiface is not engineered to be used in standalone mode, to be usable, it has to be plugged to computer.

IMHO operational, no wins, its easier to have one TM FX instance to work with.
Also better from cabling and you get the better feature set with UFX II and UFX III, all in one rack unit.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

Sure UFX II or UFX III is better solution. What I suggested is solution for ones with the tight budget. Yes two RME drivers needed.

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

ramses wrote:
kanefsky wrote:

If the number of channels and half-rack form factor suits you, the UCX II has the same latency as the UFX III and is much cheaper than either the UFX II or III.

There are still a few differences. Converter latency (especially with more recent converters) is on a much lower level compared to the latency to the PC (RTL) over whatever transport you use (USB, Firewire, TB, PCI/PCIe).

And here the newer MADIface driver supports down to 32 samples at single speed like the HDSPe driver for PCIe based products.

Is this a factor on the Mac side where both the UCX II and UFX III use the same drivers?

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

kanefsky wrote:
ramses wrote:
kanefsky wrote:

If the number of channels and half-rack form factor suits you, the UCX II has the same latency as the UFX III and is much cheaper than either the UFX II or III.

There are still a few differences. Converter latency (especially with more recent converters) is on a much lower level compared to the latency to the PC (RTL) over whatever transport you use (USB, Firewire, TB, PCI/PCIe).

And here the newer MADIface driver supports down to 32 samples at single speed like the HDSPe driver for PCIe based products.

Is this a factor on the Mac side where both the UCX II and UFX III use the same drivers?

Sorry, I can't tell, the only thing that I can read from the manual is, that Mac needs a few extra safety buffers compared to Windows accessing the devices directly via ASIO without running through the Operating Systems Sound System.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

21 (edited by lorenzzzzzzzo 2024-06-21 15:07:20)

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

Hy guys

First thank you very much, for all those explanations . 
In my case, one point is still not solved, even I'm reading lots of posts and articles for two weeks now

I have to choose between Babyface Pro Fs and the Digiface USB.

Latency is "First" for me, as I play Midi Guitar.
I understand the converters add their own latency , the babyface is great (5/7 samples), but I may use my Clarett Thunderbolt Preamps A/D (don't know the specs) even their considered as less crystal clear, they are great with my Guitar setup, and I'll need two audio interfaces, working together and alternatively for live shows.
So I'm just talking about the digital world latency for the RME.

I've tested the Babyface Pro Fs in a music store, and the latency is perfect for me @48000 / 128 samples on Macbook M1 Pro
So :
Can I Expect the DIGIFACE USB to have the same Latency Specs (Adat in to Adat Out), as the Babyface Pro Fs ?

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

See here (and the whole Thread):

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 25#p214125

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

23 (edited by lorenzzzzzzzo 2024-06-30 22:13:11)

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

Thank you Maggie33 for the link

and thank all of you on the forum for all these knowledge, like the Ramses answer in this post:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=29652

I Think I finally understood how to probably well calculate the expected latency of an interface according to the values of ADC DAC and internal processing, I'll try to summarise and write it down here again, for an easy formula, depending on your settings , computer and interface. Hope this will be the right way to calculate

Lets say you're working like me under Mac OS, w 128 samples buffer @ 48000hz
1 sample will have a time equivalent of (1/48000=) 0,02083 ms approximately

With a babyface pro Fs, which has 5 sample latency AD conversion+ 7 sample DA conversion , processing takes
= 12 samples latency
my DAW is set @ 128 samples means , processing last 128 samples in + 128 sample out, processing takes
=256 samples latency added
My Macbook uses a 48 samples security buffer
=48 samples latency added
Total latency is  12+ 256 + 48= 316 samples.    , as 1 sample = 0,02083 ms
Total latency is  316x 0,02083= 6,58228 ms

Babyfacepro Fs on Mac OS M1 @ 128 samples / 48 khz effectively does show and performs thru RTL utility @ 6.58 ms

Acording to MC The DIGIFACE USB takes 4 samples (@48000 hz) for SPDIF and Digital processing
or 9.8 max from SPDIF to phone analog out

Lets imagines I will use a Babyface pro FS for Recording my guitar, and want to send it thru ADAT out to the DIGIFACE USB for processing in my daw, then return into ADAT in Babyface pro fs , for monitoring thru BF pro fs, or going to PA.
BF AD DA: 12 samples + MacOS 48 samples + Digiface ADAT IN / OUT process 4 samples + DAW(digiface connected): 256 samples
= 320 samples x 0,020833
= 6,67 ms latency @ 48khz/ 128 samples

Hope I am right
That would be great !!!!  on the numbers,
I may buy a digiface within a few months, and come back to post the RTL latency measurements



* some test show core audio security buffer, more like 64 samples than 48..depends on you system and hardware

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

HI,
just commenting...

Lets say you're working like me under Mac OS, w 128 samples buffer @ 48000hz

-> I personally work with other buffers and rates, but it doesn't matter.
   Maybe just to add: Lower buffers (and higher rates) always lead to more CPU/Processor intensive load, especially if you work with lot of channels/Plugins, etc in your DAW Project. Too low buffer/rate settings lead to dropouts in large projects...

1 sample will have a time equivalent of (1/48000=) 0,02083 ms approximately

-> Thats correct. Physical Formula.

With a babyface pro Fs, which has 5 sample latency AD conversion+ 7 sample DA conversion , processing takes
= 12 samples latency

-> Cannot prove this, but i assume you are right and got the values with corresponding buffer size in the driver settings.

my DAW is set @ 128 samples means , processing last 128 samples in + 128 sample out, processing takes
=256 samples latency added

My Macbook uses a 48 samples security buffer
=48 samples latency added

-> Would be interesting to know how/where you added the security buffer? But ok...

Total latency is  12+ 256 + 48= 316 samples.    , as 1 sample = 0,02083 ms
Total latency is  316x 0,02083= 6,58228 ms

-> My calculation is the same - Correct

Babyfacepro Fs on Mac OS M1 @ 128 samples / 48 khz effectively does show and performs thru RTL utility @ 6.58 ms

-> so, it seems we are on the right way :-)
-> How did you measure in RTL? Via Loopback in TM or via a physical Cable from the selected Input to Output?

Acording to MC The DIGIFACE USB takes 4 samples (@48000 hz) for SPDIF and Digital processing
or 9.8 max from SPDIF to phone analog out

-> Ok. I did not search the thread, but should be right if the 4 samples included the buffer size...

Lets imagines I will use a Babyface pro FS for Recording my guitar, and want to send it thru ADAT out to the DIGIFACE USB for processing in my daw, then return into ADAT in Babyface pro fs , for monitoring thru BF pro fs, or going to PA.
BF AD DA: 12 samples + MacOS 48 samples + Digiface ADAT IN / OUT process 4 samples + DAW(digiface connected): 256 samples
= 320 samples x 0,020833
= 6,67 ms latency @ 48khz/ 128 samples

-> seems to be ok. But maybe one important, physical factor to add (not audio-equipment related):
-> for the overall latency, you should add the distance between the guitar player and the PA (speakers). This would be (the speed of sound in the air calculated):
-> Overall Latency Including Sound Travel to PA:
- 1 Meter: 6.67 ms + 2.92 ms = 9.59 ms
- 2 Meters: 6.67 ms + 5.83 ms = 12.50 ms
- 4 Meters: 6.67 ms + 11.66 ms = 18.33 ms
- 6 Meters: 6.67 ms + 17.49 ms = 24.16 ms
- 8 Meters: 6.67 ms + 23.32 ms = 29.99 ms
- 10 Meters: 6.67 ms + 29.15 ms = 35.82 ms

If you did not notice, maybe this thread would be interesting for you:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 10#p218810

-> It's nice to see, you understood the principle. I like calculations, too smile

But i have to say: Please do not make your decision based on just my answer here. I am just a guy who learned the digital processing stuff and audio basics about 20 years ago in college, try to put things together and love to learn... The RME people are Professionals. So - nope, never, ever guarantee, i am right. If i have overseen sth, alwyas happy for feedback.

regards, meg33

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

Re: Considering an RME interface and have a latency question

Just idea, not sure if it would work, but I guess, it should....

In case you use two RME devices (BF Pro and DF USB) you could set very low buffersize for interface, that would be used in (say BF Pro) and higher buffersize (according to processing tasks done in DAW) for out.

                    phones/monitors
                            ^
                            |           low buffer
                            |              USB
guitar---------->BF Pro ---------------> Mac
                          ^                               |
                          |                                |
                          |  ADAT                      |     USB
                          |                                |higher buffer
               ADAT   |                                |
preamps------>DF USB<------------------|


Guitar would go using BF Pro to DAW
Preamps would go using DF USB and BF Pro to DAW (but you could select only 8 signals at SS).
Phones&monitors would go using DF USB and BF Pro going from DAW.