1 (edited by Del_Gesu 2023-08-30 23:06:44)

Topic: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

I'm asking out of pure curiosity: why Babyface Pro has unbalanced TS 3-4 Ins instead of balanced TRS? BF seems to be an uncompromising device when it comes to quality, taking into account that it is supposed to be a mobile device. But this one thing makes me wonder why the constructors decided on an unsymmetrical option, since even cheap interfaces often have balanced line inputs, which simply seem superior in every aspect. Could the answer be as simple as cutting production costs?

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

These inputs evolved from an instrument input and electric guitars don't have balanced connectors.
As a mobile device it's great to connect the guitar and bass during a jam session.
The two XLR inputs are balanced inputs, everything is in the unit.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

Del_Gesu wrote:

… But this one thing makes me wonder why the constructors decided on an unsymmetrical option, since even cheap interfaces often have balanced line inputs, which simply seem superior in every aspect. Could the answer be as simple as cutting production costs?

Hi
No, the audio quality is the same.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

Yes agreed, and the headphones out also double as a line 3/4 out with identical quality as the balanced outs 1/2!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

oli77sch wrote:
Del_Gesu wrote:

… But this one thing makes me wonder why the constructors decided on an unsymmetrical option, since even cheap interfaces often have balanced line inputs, which simply seem superior in every aspect. Could the answer be as simple as cutting production costs?

Hi
No, the audio quality is the same.

+1

Most likely psychoacoustic effect …
Balanced connections have a higher output volume.
You need to adjust the levels to be the same when comparing, otherwise our ear/brain interprets louder as better.
And as always, best blind comparisons to exclude any bias from your side.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

6 (edited by Del_Gesu 2023-08-31 10:31:15)

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

It seems I didn't make myself very clear, so I'll ask again.
One of the differences between balanced and unbalanced audio connection is that a balanced connection has less risk for unwanted noise and usually has a bigger maximum output/input level. From this point of view unbalanced Ins are inferior to balanced. So, my question is why Babyface Pro FS has unbalanced TS 3-4 Ins instead of balanced TRS? Is this because of:
– cutting production costs?
– technical limitations?
– general idea, according to which the constructors decided that it was unnecessary?
– another reason?

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

Your questions were understood and answered, you just don't seem to understand the answers.

1. just because a port is unbalanced does not mean that you necessarily have to have interference. Well, you don't have a differential circuit, but that is especially important only in the studio area or on a stage, because only there you have to deal with very long cables. Think about how long one has worked even in the HiFi high-end area with quite normal RCA cables.

You can also read in the manual in chapter 9.6 that the analog inputs 3+4 of the BBF Pro were designed as universally usable Hi-Z inputs. Universal means that you can connect instruments as well as use the inputs as line inputs.

The waedi has already described it well. The BBF Pro has just been designed for these typical applications. Just take that as a decisive and correct hint.

You should also consider that a USB2 port from the computer does not provide so much power. RME has already pointed out in the forum that they have brought out the best possible with the device design to be able to operate the device bus-powered (optional PSU).

More than that is just not possible and most people use it just so that they plug into Analog 3+4 your instruments or a keyboard and for these typical 2-5m cables you do not need a balanced connection.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8 (edited by Kubrak 2023-08-31 14:29:15)

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

Well, that does not explain, why 3-4 is not also ballanced (beside unballanced).... It could have been ballanced as well as inputs 3/4 in UCX are....

Maybe that it is because of easier standalone use, or whatewer....

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

Kubrak wrote:

Well, that does not explain, why 3-4 is not also ballanced (beside unballanced).... It could have been ballanced as well as inputs 3/4 in UCX are....

Maybe that it is because of easier standalone use, or whatewer....

Think about power consumption and the PCB design. I am pretty sure that RME had a reason to do it this way.

And as already repeatedly mentioned, the BBF Pro has been designed for this use case, which is absolutely fine.

If you two guys have your personal obsession, to get more balanced ports, then this is most likely not the product for you.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

10 (edited by Kubrak 2023-08-31 16:28:15)

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

The question was, what reasoning was behind BBF design that 2/3 cannot be also ballanced.

So, far we do not know, we just guess. Only RME could answer that question....

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

…and usually has a bigger maximum output/input level

Balanced connections have a higher output volume.

Not to my knowledge. It can happen to have a difference of +/- 6dB when balanced and unbalanced devices are connected together, it depends on the circuits. Also the audio quality can suffer when using unbalanced cables with cold signal and ground bridged on non servo balanced ports. For example the XLR output on the Babyface pro (FS). From the manual:
The short circuit protected, low impedance XLR line outputs do not operate servo balanced! When connecting unbalanced equipment, make sure pin 3 of the XLR output is not connected. A connection to ground might cause a decreased THD (higher distortion) and increased power consumption!

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

12 (edited by Del_Gesu 2023-08-31 18:52:17)

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

ramses wrote:

Your questions were understood and answered, you just don't seem to understand the answers.
[…]
If you two guys have your personal obsession, to get more balanced ports, then this is most likely not the product for you.

You take my question too personally and draw conclusions that are too far-reaching. My intention was not to offend you. The only constructive and relevant response to my question that was given in this thread concerned power consumption limitations. Could you elaborate on how balanced inputs increase power consumption? If indeed this is the case, it might be the answer to my question.

To all those who have discussed the properties of balanced and unbalanced connections: could you please write about the advantage of using unbalanced inputs over balanced ones? Because if there is no such advantage, all the information you provide is off-topic.

13 (edited by ramses 2023-08-31 19:30:01)

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

I don't think I'm wrong in my assumptions, and I'm wondering what you're actually hoping to get out of a response from RME.

I understand that you would like to have it authentically directly from RME. But the answer will certainly not be, "oh sorry we forgot something".

To me, this is slowly starting to look like the question "why is the banana crooked". The product is like it is for some reason I tried to explain. Another thing, additionally required circuits and what not (not clear if USB2 bus power would still be sufficient) and additionally also an impact on price.
Some people already struggle with the current price for such a mobile "entry level" interface.
2021 BBF Pro FS costed €698. Now after Corona, delivery chain issues and global price increases €888.
That's already a 27% price increase without any of such wanted redesigns (technically possible or not is another point).

Anyway, I tried to give you a quite probable and valid answer with a good intention. If this is not enough for you, really not my problem, then you have to wait for an answer.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

Kubrak wrote:

Well, that does not explain, why 3-4 is not also ballanced (beside unballanced).... It could have been ballanced as well as inputs 3/4 in UCX are....

Maybe that it is because of easier standalone use, or whatewer....

True, in the UCX and similar interfaces there are balanced inputs which also work for instruments with unbalanced connections.
To be honest I also asked myself why there are unbalanced inputs on the Babyface pro. But I simply assumed it’s more simple to construct such a circuit or whatever. For my personal needs (external mic pres on inputs 3/4) it always worked absolutely fine so far. That’s also the reason why I did kind of 'defense the unbalanced connection' above. There are so many people thinking a balanced connection delivers the better quality per se. It doesn’t.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

Del_Gesu wrote:

since even cheap interfaces often have balanced line inputs

The BBF Pro has two balanced line inputs and two unbalanced instrument/line inputs.

Del_Gesu wrote:

Could the answer be as simple as cutting production costs?

So constructive and relevant.

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

ramses wrote:

To me, this is slowly starting to look like the question "why is the banana crooked". The product is like it is for some reason I tried to explain.

I think there's nothing wrong with being curious about why a certain product is designed the way it is. I find it simply interesting. There are other aspects of Babyface that have been explained on this forum, such as why there are no dynamic processors (to reduce production costs and make BF more affordable for customers, as well as for power consumption reasons) or why the ports are placed on different sides (to maintain a compact size for portability reasons). I've learned something new each time.
In my second post, I provided possible reasons for the unbalanced 3-4 inputs. You also mentioned several reasons, such as cost-cutting (keeping BF "entry-level" for customers) and reducing power consumption (due to technical limitations). I just hope someone can provide a more definitive answer, and it doesn't necessarily have to come from an RME representative. However, the answer of "it is like it is, and if you don't like it, just don't buy it" is not a satisfactory response for me. Anyway, thank you for all the information you've provided and for your effort.

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

Well, BF Pro FS is pretty costly for what it brings (comparing to other RME products). I do not think, to cut production costs is the reason 3/4 cannot be also ballanced. Also do not think that power limit would be the reason. It could have been if it has been output, but it is input.

So, maybe it is so to simpify user interface when in standalone use, or limited space for chips, or ....

But yes, BFP is great product, no question. I would love to have it to accompany my UCX, 802 and Digiface USB. It just costs too much even secondhand. :-(

18 (edited by ramses 2023-09-01 13:49:52)

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

Compare with other products on the market. When doing consulting in other forums I always told the people to avoid interfaces that are only bus powered, because in all cases there were issues, that the headphone outputs were not powerful enough for many people.

The usual market has then usually only products that work either bus powered (with such limitations) or need a power supply.
RME designed here an exceptional device that can work USB bus powered, has still enough volume on the headphone amps and can optionally be equipped with PSU and has more useful features compared to the products of other companies.

I, personally, regard the BBF Pro FS as the sweet spot of what is possible for such a bus powered mobile device.

Its balancing in terms of design with circuits, features, to have a "round product" and also with costs.

With the features, you have in mind, I would estimate that the device would be in the range of over €950.
And this would not be to the benefit of users. It's a mobile and entry-level device, giving you everything that you need for mobility and use cases that most people have.

It sounds to me that you are still very sceptical, but believe me, if everything would be that easy, then the BBF Pro would have all those features. Look at other USB bus-powered devices of the competition and compare the features … Maybe then you could agree more with what I say.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

IMHO using 3/4 ballanced input would require less energy to 3/4 unballanced. ;-)

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

Kubrak wrote:

IMHO using 3/4 ballanced input would require less energy to 3/4 unballanced. ;-)

Why?

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: BF Pro FS – why unbalanced 3-4 Ins?

It is stronger signal, needs less atenuation, if any. So, under the same conditions it may need less power, not more than unballanced.