1 (edited by kwk86 2023-08-31 09:14:53)

Topic: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

Hi there,

as a newbie I would like to find out as to why I sometimes hear some background noise. Streaming from Qobuz, I can hear a bit of background noise (almost like white noise) in about 40% of the titles.

So the first question is why there is this noise in the first place? My line of thought here is that any recording glitches etc. may be audible due to the extreme high solution of my Stax SR-009.
Secondly, why is this noise increased by the EQ? If there is this noise, it even gets audibly louder if i turn on the EQ. It would not vanish completely but get notably smaller in volume if EQ is turned off.

Deets of my headphone chain:
Bluesound Node N130 with LPS --> USB out --> ADI-2 DAC FS --> XLR out --> High-Amp Alpha Centauri -> Stax SR-009

Thanks and kind regards!

Bluesound Node N130 with PD Creative LPS > RME ADI-2 Dac > High_Amp Alpha Centauri > Stax SR-009

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

Does this issue also occur with other sources (CDs or the like)?

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

I will check this with a couple of CDs and get back to you. Thanks.

Bluesound Node N130 with PD Creative LPS > RME ADI-2 Dac > High_Amp Alpha Centauri > Stax SR-009

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

How about with coax out from the BS Node? Or even optical, to avoid any galvanic connection?

5 (edited by KaiS 2023-08-31 12:05:18)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

kwk86 wrote:

...why is this noise increased by the EQ? If there is this noise, it even gets audibly louder if i turn on the EQ. It would not vanish completely but get notably smaller in volume if EQ is turned off.

The noise might already be present in the recording.
The fact that it’s recording dependent strongly points on that.
If you have very good hearing ability you might detect it.

Or is it dependent on the sample rate, have a look at the lower right corner in the main display?

The noise might even origin from some interfacing problem.
Use RME Bit Test (see DAC manual page 67) to check if your settings and connections are OK.


Depending on the way you set the EQ any noise can be boosted, especially if you reduce the mid range or boost the treble.

6 (edited by kwk86 2023-08-31 16:29:43)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

Thanks for your support!

Bad news, I guess. I did the bit test with all files but no window was displayed showing it had been passed, hence I must assume some issues are prevalent. Normally I dont use my PC at all, but I connected my Win PC via the same USB cable and played all files seeing them being fed into the ADI-2. No window showed up.

I want to check the other aspects mentioned (CD as source, Coax) but so far what to do about the negative bit test?

Bluesound Node N130 with PD Creative LPS > RME ADI-2 Dac > High_Amp Alpha Centauri > Stax SR-009

7 (edited by ratty 2023-08-31 16:32:46)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

kwk86 wrote:

Bad news, I guess. I did the bit test with all files but no window was displayed showing it had been passed, hence I must assume some issues are prevalent.

That's presumably Bluesound Node N130 with LPS --> USB out --> ADI-2 DAC FS

How about Bluesound Node N130 with LPS --> [coax | optical] --> ADI-2 DAC FS ?

Or retry the first test with a different USB cable?

8 (edited by kwk86 2023-08-31 16:54:42)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

Sorry, if I am misunderstanding you, but how could you assume it was due to the BS Node if i only did the bit test without the BS Node but with a Windows PC?
Is it correct that the bit test with those files can only be done from a Windows PC but not from an iPad? I wouldn't know how to do the bit test via the BS Node either.
Unfortunately I only have 1 compatible USB cable (USB A>B) right now. If the bit test was possible on an iPad, I could use my USB>Lightning cable.

Bluesound Node N130 with PD Creative LPS > RME ADI-2 Dac > High_Amp Alpha Centauri > Stax SR-009

9 (edited by ratty 2023-08-31 17:07:22)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

kwk86 wrote:

Sorry, if I am misunderstanding you, but how could you assume it was due to the BS Node if i only did the bit test without the BS Node but with a Windows PC?

Apologies. I thought you'd tested with the Node first and then with the PC.

Is it correct that the bit test with those files can only be done from a Windows PC but not from an iPad? I wouldn't know how to do the bit test via the BS Node either.

You could put the files on network storage and use SMB to get them to the Node. I may have missed it but don't believe it supports DLNA. Hopefully it's able to render them out the USB bit-perfect...

If the USB is not in use for output you could also put the files on a flash drive.

10 (edited by KaiS 2023-08-31 19:09:09)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

kwk86 wrote:

Sorry, if I am misunderstanding you, but how could you assume it was due to the BS Node if i only did the bit test without the BS Node but with a Windows PC?
Is it correct that the bit test with those files can only be done from a Windows PC but not from an iPad? I wouldn't know how to do the bit test via the BS Node either.
Unfortunately I only have 1 compatible USB cable (USB A>B) right now. If the bit test was possible on an iPad, I could use my USB>Lightning cable.

Bit Test can be done from every device that can play audio, including iDevices of course.

But- it‘s not a test to check if ADI-2 is OK, it very likely is anyway.
It‘s for checking the playback device and it‘s configuration.

The test is simple: play the files with your standard soft to ADI-2.

If the test fails, check if all settings in e.g. the Bluesound Node, are set in a way to transfer the audio 1:1 unaltered, e.g. volume set to 100%.

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

You are reporting problems here because you think the ADI-2 DAC is the cause of the problem. Why don't you work step by step? That's how I would do it:

1. Change the D/A Filter of the ADI-2 DAC FS
2. Bluesound Node N130 --> Alpha Centauri -> Stax SR-009

3. see #2 "Does this issue also occur with other sources (CDs or the like)?"

4. see #4 "How about with coax out from the BS Node? Or even optical, to avoid any galvanic connection?
5. see #9 "If the USB is not in use for output you could also put the files on a flash drive."
Bluesound Node N130 --> OPTICAL OUT --> ADI-2 DAC FS --> Alpha Centauri -> Stax SR-009
Media source is USB

6. see #7 "Or retry the first test with a different USB cable?"
7. see #10 "Bit Test"

But what a pity:
With the Alpha Centauri (tube sound) you change the completely neutral reproduction of the ADI-2 DAC FS.
http://www.high-amp.de/html/alpha_centa … offer.html

12 (edited by kwk86 2023-09-01 11:38:32)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

weme wrote:

You are reporting problems here because you think the ADI-2 DAC is the cause of the problem. Why don't you work step by step? That's how I would do it:

1. Change the D/A Filter of the ADI-2 DAC FS
2. Bluesound Node N130 --> Alpha Centauri -> Stax SR-009

3. see #2 "Does this issue also occur with other sources (CDs or the like)?"

4. see #4 "How about with coax out from the BS Node? Or even optical, to avoid any galvanic connection?
5. see #9 "If the USB is not in use for output you could also put the files on a flash drive."
Bluesound Node N130 --> OPTICAL OUT --> ADI-2 DAC FS --> Alpha Centauri -> Stax SR-009
Media source is USB

6. see #7 "Or retry the first test with a different USB cable?"
7. see #10 "Bit Test"

But what a pity:
With the Alpha Centauri (tube sound) you change the completely neutral reproduction of the ADI-2 DAC FS.
http://www.high-amp.de/html/alpha_centa … offer.html

Thanks a lot. Much appreciated. I sat down and did some stepwise testing with these findings:

- Bit Test: Failed every time with all files bot via Win PC and iPad. BS Node not yet tested due to difficulty to access files. I tried different cables and different EQ filters but to no avail. What to do about this?

- Different sources: I could hear the 'white noise', yes, also on CD.
- Different digital connections: Yes, I could hear it again irrespective of connection method: COAX, Opt-out, USB-out from Node.
- Different recordings: It may come and go depending on the file. It is emphasized by EQ, as previously explained.
- Different chain: Yes, i could somewhat spot the sound also on my bigger loudspeaker setup, but to a much much smaller degree.

Summary and open questions:
I think it depends on the record. This must be the flipside of the Stax 'coin'. Stax earspeakers' extremely high resolution emphasizes the slightest glitches which other systems don't even bring up. Quite 'unforgiving'.
--> Yet, the failed Bit Test is puzzling me. What's next?

Bluesound Node N130 with PD Creative LPS > RME ADI-2 Dac > High_Amp Alpha Centauri > Stax SR-009

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

kwk86 wrote:

the failed Bit Test is puzzling me. What's next?

From your description I'm not convinced that the files haven't been altered in some way (which of course will fail the Bit Test). The source must apply no volume adjustment, no EQ, no sample rate conversion, no decimation, no anything.

I don't know about Windows but I recall from using a portable DAC with an iPad that it appeared to deliver everything out the USB at 24/96. Doubtless the experts here could recommend a bit-perfect Windows driver but personally I wouldn't trust any such platform not to mangle the data.

Surely it isn't that hard to pop the test files onto a USB flash stick and play them directly through the Node is it?

14 (edited by KaiS 2023-09-01 15:10:20)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

To avoid chasing ghosts list some tracks where the noise is very prominent.
So I could counter check if it’s audible here too, on my STAX SR-009.

• Check if “Auto Ref Level” is on. You will see the volume figure shown with dBr instead of straight dB sign.

• Set ADI-2’s volume to -10 dBr.
ADI-2’s meter in the main screen (set to post FX or Dual) should now show roughly -10 dB music level.

• Set your normal listening loudness with the High Amp’s volume control.

• Post a photo of your typical EQ curve.
You need an external image hoster to do so.

15 (edited by kwk86 2023-09-01 16:41:53)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

weme wrote:

But what a pity:
With the Alpha Centauri (tube sound) you change the completely neutral reproduction of the ADI-2 DAC FS.
http://www.high-amp.de/html/alpha_centa … offer.html

Well, that’s ultimately a matter of taste and i reckon i won’t put myself in harm’s way with a hybrid tubes amp. I mean Stax is also offering hybrid tube amps and solid state amps.
In another forum most enthusiasts were in favour of tubes to round off the sound as they say. I did some listening comparisons with the engineer of the High-Amp to notice only very tiny, subtle differences but my guts feeling liked the Alpha Centauri a bit better.

ratty wrote:
kwk86 wrote:

the failed Bit Test is puzzling me. What's next?

I don't know about Windows but I recall from using a portable DAC with an iPad that it appeared to deliver everything out the USB at 24/96. Doubtless the experts here could recommend a bit-perfect Windows driver but personally I wouldn't trust any such platform not to mangle the data.

Surely it isn't that hard to pop the test files onto a USB flash stick and play them directly through the Node is it?

I simply didn’t have a hard drive at hand, but now managed to get positive results for all 16bit, 24 bit test files played through the BS Node via USB connected hard drive. That means that my BS Node doesn’t alter a thing, which is nice.
Only 32 bit files didn’t pass the bit test, which I could not care less about since I don't have such files. I think Coax out is the limiting factor here. Ultimately, USB sounds better to my ears than Coax out, but to use the RME App on the iPad I needed to connect the iPad via USB, which is why I needed to use Coax. Will perhaps go back to BS Node > USB > ADI-2 Dac.


KaiS wrote:

To avoid chasing ghosts list some tracks where the noise is very prominent.
So I could counter check if it’s audible here too, on my STAX SR-009.

• Check if “Auto Ref Level” is on. You will see the volume shown with dBr instead of straight dB sign.

• Set ADI-2’s volume to -10 dBr.
ADI-2’s meter in the main screen (set to post FX or Dual) should now show roughly -10 dB music level.


• Set your normal listening loudness with the High Amp’s volume control.

• Post a photo of your typical EQ curve.
You need an external image hoster to do so.

If i set the dBr to -10 with Auto Ref level activated, the dBu automatically turns to +13. I then listened on BS Node in my normal setup some records on Qobuz’ Best of 192kHz playlist.
The following ones had the white noise. Mostly assumably older recordings, but also rather recently produced tracks:

Girl from Ipanema, Stan Getz
I’m coming out, Diana Ross
Moanin’, Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers
For what it’s worth, complete album collection remastered, Buffalo Springfield


As for the EQ curve, i initially went with Oratory1990 settings, which i also posted a screenshot of on another forum. Please refer to this link for the picture.

https://www.open-end-music.com/forum/au … ad/page299

Bluesound Node N130 with PD Creative LPS > RME ADI-2 Dac > High_Amp Alpha Centauri > Stax SR-009

16 (edited by KaiS 2023-09-01 18:47:24)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

kwk86 wrote:

The following ones had the white noise. Mostly assumably older recordings, but also rather recently produced tracks:

Girl from Ipanema, Stan Getz
I’m coming out, Diana Ross
Moanin’, Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers
For what it’s worth, complete album collection remastered, Buffalo Springfield


As for the EQ curve, i initially went with Oratory1990 settings, which i also posted a screenshot of on another forum. Please refer to this link for the picture.

https://www.open-end-music.com/forum/au … ad/page299

I replicated your complete setting, incl. Crossfeed and Loudness, like visible in the link provided.
Played on my STAX SR-009 / SRM-1 MK2 directly connected to ADI-2/4 Pro SE.
Streaming from Tidal Master.


• Girl from Ipanema, Stan Getz, Joao Gilberto, Astrud Gilberto:
Over 70 releases of the track, more or less remastered.

The famous edited single version, with only Astrud singing, appearing in mono and stereo versions.

With DA Filter “NOS” the vocal “plate type” reverb sounds artificial, quite like “noise”.
With my preferred “SD LD”-Filter the reverb becomes part of the music.

The original duett version with Getz’ vocal has a faint noise in the intro of most versions.


• I’m coming out, Diana Ross:
I can find ca. 30 releases of the track,
There is a noise along the vocal, obviously origining from the recording process, most prominent in “The Legacy Collection”.
When the drums chime in, I can’t stand playing loud enough to further hear any noise.

With DA Filter “NOS” the noise sounds separated from the music.
With my preferred “SD LD” filter the noise better integrates into what it actually is, a part of the recording.


• Moanin’, Art Blakey, The Jazz Messengers
More or less the same like above.
This is a 1958 recording, which, for it’s age, has quite a good sound.
Obvious recording overloads in the left channel trumpet solo included.


• complete album collection remastered, Buffalo Springfield
Some soft background noise in the stereo versions audible, nothing to ‘phone home about.



CONCLUSION:
These old recordings are made on analog tape and contain some noise due to the recording process.
In the remastered versions the engineers seems to have partly reduced the noise by some amount, but it comes through of course from time to time.
Your EQ is quite drastic (not sounding bad) and boosts the treble, enhancing  the critical frequencies.

To me the NOS Filter’s huge amount of audible artifacts making the situation worse, creating an unnatural disconnection of noise, reverb and music.
Other filters like “SD LD” are better suited.


In this light I’d view the topic as solved, what you hear is simply what is in the recordings.

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS: Audible noise increase by EQ?

Thank you so much for your kind support. All of you.
It is a big relief to be in the know about what's ok and what's a problem, now I think I can better focus on the music and simply enjoy it.
Great

Bluesound Node N130 with PD Creative LPS > RME ADI-2 Dac > High_Amp Alpha Centauri > Stax SR-009